# Will the Fox outrun the Explorer? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [October 21, 2004, 2:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-the-fox-outrun-the-explorer/270326 "2004-10-21T02:12:53Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![spingears](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ebca7d/32.png) [@spingears](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/spingears)\ **Post date:** [October 21, 2004, 2:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-the-fox-outrun-the-explorer/270326/1 "2004-10-21T02:12:53Z")
An article in "Business 2.0, Nov. pg. 39. "Microsofts Worst Nightmare " indicates that Firefox is intent on on taking over the internet and subjugate Internet Explorer to second or third place. Why? or Why Not? ---
**Author:** ![Neurotik](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/91b2a8/32.png) [@Neurotik](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Neurotik)\ **Post date:** [October 21, 2004, 2:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-the-fox-outrun-the-explorer/270326/2 "2004-10-21T02:17:02Z")
Why? To make money. Why not? I dunno…I like MS Explorer. I don’t see myself changing anytime soon. ---
**Author:** ![Revtim](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/revtim/32/1042_2.png) [@Revtim](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Revtim)\ **Post date:** [October 21, 2004, 2:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-the-fox-outrun-the-explorer/270326/3 "2004-10-21T02:55:44Z")
Do they actually have a plan to make money somehow? ---
**Author:** ![Nurobath](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/a88e57/32.png) [@Nurobath](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nurobath)\ **Post date:** [October 21, 2004, 6:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-the-fox-outrun-the-explorer/270326/4 "2004-10-21T06:12:26Z")
I don’t know about the “Intent on taking over the internet” thing but I wouldn’t be a bit perturbed to see IE go the way of the dodo (not that that’s likely to happen soon). Firefox is a superior browser (IMO) and has been getting more and more converts lately while Microsoft has pretty much stopped working on IE6 (except for the occasional security update). The next version of IE should be unveiled with Longhorn in [2006](http://arstechnica.com/news.ars/post/20041005-4271.html). Or [maybe a bit sooner](http://www.internetnews.com/ent-news/article.php/3392061) Until MS comes out with a browser that is standards complient and is not a gaping security hole, people will continue to switch to something else. Firefox has tabbed browsing, is fast, relatively small, built in pop-up blocker, and the newest version has live bookmarks for handling RSS feeds. 🙂 It’s also standards complient. Anyway, to answer the “Why?” question…uh, because they can? _from the second link above_ > [@](#): > > “The truth is that consumers aren’t going to worry about things like CSS and PNG support,” said Robert Iliad, a developer who is participating in the feedback process. “There are still millions of consumers using IE 5.5, so how are you going to get them to use IE 7.0 just because of some obscure thing called CSS?” And good web developer these days would be horrified (though probably not surprised) by that statement. Statements like this that just prove that MS just doesn’t care about keeping up with the rest of the browsers out there. If MS loses market position it’s really no one’s fault but their own. ---
**Author:** ![Gorsnak](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gorsnak/32/7587_2.png) [@Gorsnak](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gorsnak)\ **Post date:** [October 21, 2004, 6:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-the-fox-outrun-the-explorer/270326/5 "2004-10-21T06:18:03Z")
“some obscure thing called CSS”??? :eek: And he said that this August? I take it MS _wants_ Mozilla and its progeny to continue eating away at their market share? ---
**Author:** ![RaftPeople](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/6f9a4e/32.png) [@RaftPeople](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RaftPeople)\ **Post date:** [October 21, 2004, 6:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-the-fox-outrun-the-explorer/270326/6 "2004-10-21T06:34:57Z")
The CSS comment is right on. The general population just wants their web page to appear. They don’t want to spend 1 microsecond understanding the details, or even comparing feature/function between different browsers. And having a browser ship with a PC vs one that needs to be downloaded is a huge advantage for MS. The only way to beat MS on this is to at least match their distribution, plus convince people the security advantages are so real that they really should spend that 1 microsecond to think about their browser. It’s not going to be easy. ---
**Author:** ![Nurobath](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/a88e57/32.png) [@Nurobath](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nurobath)\ **Post date:** [October 21, 2004, 7:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-the-fox-outrun-the-explorer/270326/7 "2004-10-21T07:21:00Z")
> [@RaftPeople](#): > > The general population just wants their web page to appear. They don’t want to spend 1 microsecond understanding the details, or even comparing feature/function between different browsers. The general population’s ignorance or laziness is not an valid excuse to continue to produce inferior software. CSS makes the web a better place whether the end user is aware of how it works or not. That’s not really the issue. Complient CSS pages load faster than table based layouts and are also much more accessible for blind or visually impaired users. They also don’t break text based browsers. There are laws on the books right now that require certain web sites to be accessible to people with disabilities. CSS is probably the easiest way to implement this. CSS is the future of the web whether MS wants to admit it or not. ---
**Author:** ![Neurotik](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/91b2a8/32.png) [@Neurotik](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Neurotik)\ **Post date:** [October 21, 2004, 1:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-the-fox-outrun-the-explorer/270326/8 "2004-10-21T13:19:30Z")
I’ve never heard of CSS or PNG, nor do I care about them. Honestly, I’ll just take whichever browser comes with my computer. They all work about the same, IMO. > [@from link above](#): > > “IE support for alpha blending in PNGs would free up web designers to easily accomplish things they could only dream of before,” Mitchell added. Such as? Whenever I hear a web designer say this, I get the feeling some feature is going to be added to their website simply because it’s “cool” like the Flash animation intro fad of a while back, and that serves no good purpose and just annoys every non-web designer. ---
**Author:** ![Jonathan\_Chance](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jonathan_chance/32/701_2.png) [@Jonathan\_Chance](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jonathan_Chance)\ **Post date:** [October 21, 2004, 2:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-the-fox-outrun-the-explorer/270326/9 "2004-10-21T14:25:59Z")
> [@Nurobath](#): > > The general population’s ignorance or laziness is not an valid excuse to continue to produce inferior software. Wrong-O! If the reason for designing the software is to make money then the reasonable approach for a firm is to spend what is required and not one dime more. If spending $XXX would lead to NOT making $XXX+ in return than a firm is completely justified in stopping upgrades and new coding. ---
**Author:** ![Evil\_Captor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/f17d59/32.png) [@Evil\_Captor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_Captor)\ **Post date:** [October 21, 2004, 2:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-the-fox-outrun-the-explorer/270326/10 "2004-10-21T14:33:42Z")
The reason Firefox and Mozilla are eating IE’s lunch are popups and scumware. Users don’t care about how the browser works, but they hate those fucking popups and they don’t like the idea of scummy vermin spying on their computer activities. I.E. is a lot more vulnerable to these than others, though I imagine that any browser that takes on a serious portion of the marketplace is going to find the scumware vermin adapting their work for the new browser. Of course, I understand other browsers don’t have gaping security holes like IE does, so it might not be so easy. ---
**Author:** ![blowero](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/41988e/32.png) [@blowero](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/blowero)\ **Post date:** [October 21, 2004, 5:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-the-fox-outrun-the-explorer/270326/11 "2004-10-21T17:39:16Z")
Unless Firefox comes free with the computer, they’re gonna have a hard time beating IE. I just don’t see people going out of their way to get different software when there’s already a program installed on the computer that works perfectly fine. (Maybe that last part is debatable, but you see the point, right?) ---
**Author:** ![blowero](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/41988e/32.png) [@blowero](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/blowero)\ **Post date:** [October 21, 2004, 5:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-the-fox-outrun-the-explorer/270326/12 "2004-10-21T17:43:01Z")
> [@Nurobath](#): > > Firefox has tabbed browsing, is fast, relatively small, built in pop-up blocker, and the newest version has live bookmarks for handling RSS feeds. 🙂 It’s also standards complient. You realize that probably 90% of PC users have no idea what those last two things even _mean_, don’t you? ---
**Author:** ![Nurobath](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/a88e57/32.png) [@Nurobath](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nurobath)\ **Post date:** [October 21, 2004, 6:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-the-fox-outrun-the-explorer/270326/13 "2004-10-21T18:17:32Z")
Yes, I realize that. And I also realize that many people don’t understand or care that the browser that comes with windows is great big security hole. I understand that many people just want to click their little E and get to browsing. But does that mean that the other browser developers should just give up? That innovation should stop because Microsoft doesn’t like it? Firefox, Mozilla, Safari, Konquerer, and Opera are all free (well, Opera’s free version has ads) and they’re all a lot easier to dowload and install than even one MS Windows Update (OT, has anyone noticed the horror show that Windows Update has become? ack.). All of that aside, Firefox IS gaining users. Will they be able to take over the browser market? I doubt it. But if they can put a scare into MS and the web gets a better IE because of it then everyone wins. ---
**Author:** ![blowero](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/41988e/32.png) [@blowero](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/blowero)\ **Post date:** [October 21, 2004, 6:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-the-fox-outrun-the-explorer/270326/14 "2004-10-21T18:25:16Z")
> [@Nurobath](#): > > Yes, I realize that. And I also realize that many people don’t understand or care that the browser that comes with windows is great big security hole. I understand that many people just want to click their little E and get to browsing. But does that mean that the other browser developers should just give up? That innovation should stop because Microsoft doesn’t like it? Who said _that_? I thought we were discussing whether Firefox will be able to beat IE in the market. The fact that you think 90% of PC users are stupid isn’t going to change reality. ---
**Author:** ![Nurobath](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/a88e57/32.png) [@Nurobath](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nurobath)\ **Post date:** [October 21, 2004, 6:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-the-fox-outrun-the-explorer/270326/15 "2004-10-21T18:44:56Z")
Sorry, from this quote… > [@blowero](#): > > You realize that probably 90% of PC users have no idea what those last two things even mean, don’t you? I must have misread your meaning there. > [@blowero](#): > > The fact that you think 90% of PC users are stupid isn’t going to change reality. Uh…where did I say that? Oh, yeah…I didn’t. Please try and refrain from misrepresenting my posts, thank you. And I did comment on whether I thought Firefox could beat MS. Did you miss that part? > [@Nurobath](#): > > Will they be able to take over the browser market? I doubt it. But if they can put a scare into MS and the web gets a better IE because of it then everyone wins. ---
**Author:** ![blowero](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/41988e/32.png) [@blowero](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/blowero)\ **Post date:** [October 21, 2004, 7:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-the-fox-outrun-the-explorer/270326/16 "2004-10-21T19:02:31Z")
> [@Nurobath](#): > > Sorry, from this quote… > > I must have misread your meaning there. Yeah, I guess so. > [@](#): > > Uh…where did I say that? Oh, yeah…I didn’t. Please try and refrain from misrepresenting my posts, thank you. Well you _did_ say, “_many people don’t understand or care that the browser that comes with windows is great big security hole. I understand that many people just want to click their little E and get to browsing._” That sounds to me like you’re saying they are stupid. Especially the “_just want to click their little E_” part. Did you _not_ intend for that to sound like a put-down? > [@](#): > > And I did comment on whether I thought Firefox could beat MS. Did you miss that part? Well, I thought I was pretty clear about what I was responding to. The fact that I responded to _one_ thing you said does not mean I “missed” somthing else. Let me quote you again: > [@](#): > > But does that mean that the other browser developers should just give up? That innovation should stop because Microsoft doesn’t like it? Again I ask you - Who said anyone should give up? Who said innovation should stop? Who are you arguing against? ---
**Author:** ![Nurobath](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/a88e57/32.png) [@Nurobath](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nurobath)\ **Post date:** [October 21, 2004, 8:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-the-fox-outrun-the-explorer/270326/17 "2004-10-21T20:17:08Z")
Being lazy or ignorant of features is not the same thing as stupid. If I had meant stupid I would have said that. I also didn’t say 90%, I said many. You are the one who used the 90% number. > [@blowero](#): > > Again I ask you - Who said anyone should give up? Who said innovation should stop? Who are you arguing against? I took your earlier post > [@blowero](#): > > You realize that probably 90% of PC users have no idea what those last two things even mean, don’t you? in response to my mention of some features and standards compliance, to mean that if that many people don’t know what they are (and hence, use them) then there’s no point in even adding those freatures. If that’s not what you were getting at then would you please clarify your meaning in the above statement. ---
**Author:** ![blowero](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/41988e/32.png) [@blowero](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/blowero)\ **Post date:** [October 21, 2004, 8:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-the-fox-outrun-the-explorer/270326/18 "2004-10-21T20:37:37Z")
Well feel free to substitute whatever percentage you want for 90%. I was using hyperbole to some extent. I haven’t actually done research on what percentage of people are aware of what features browsers have. > [@Nurobath](#): > > I took your earlier post in response to my mention of some features and standards compliance, to mean that if that many people don’t know what they are (and hence, use them) then there’s no point in even adding those freatures. Wow. And then you had the gall to say to _me_, “Please try and refrain from misrepresenting my posts, thank you.” Pot? Kettle on line 2. > [@](#): > > If that’s not what you were getting at then would you please clarify your meaning in the above statement. Well, it was already clear, but I’ll restate it for you. The thread is discussing whether Firefox will outsell IE. You mentioned a couple features, and I pointed out that most people don’t even know what those things _mean_. I don’t expect that people are going to go out of their way to stop using the browser that came with their computer and switch to a new one because of some features that they aren’t even aware of. How on Earth do you get from “I don’t think they will outsell IE” to “There’s no point in even adding these features?” Honda Civics outsell Ferraris; that doesn’t mean they should stop making Ferraris, does it? ---
**Author:** ![chappachula](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/d2c977/32.png) [@chappachula](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/chappachula)\ **Post date:** [October 21, 2004, 9:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-the-fox-outrun-the-explorer/270326/19 "2004-10-21T21:46:34Z")
can I add my .02, as a computer-using-Luddite.? Computer geeks love to talk about upgrades, improvements, new operating systems, etc.But the rest of us --the 90% who are computer-stupid and PROUD of it–don’t give a damn.We want to buy a computer that we know how to use. There was a time when every new upgrade was a major event, because even the most illiterate user felt the improvement.But for the last 5 years, the "up"grades have been "down"grades for many people.Extra expense, with NO noticable improvement. Techno-geeks forget that regular people buy computers in order to do something useful, not to boast about the inner guts and specs. Mazda tried to sell rotary engine cars in the 70’s, and learned the hard way: new ideas don’t succeed when the public is already satisfied with the product they currently have. I predict that when Microsoft announces its new system , only the geeks will get excited. The general public won’t buy it.We’ve already got computers at home that work fine. (And “Longhorn” has got to be the stupidest brand name imaginable for a computer system. It sounds like a shoe polish.) ---
**Author:** ![Gorsnak](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gorsnak/32/7587_2.png) [@Gorsnak](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gorsnak)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2004, 12:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-the-fox-outrun-the-explorer/270326/20 "2004-10-22T00:18:33Z")
> [@chappachula](#): > > (And “Longhorn” has got to be the stupidest brand name imaginable for a computer system. It sounds like a shoe polish.) Best continue being proud of your computer ignorance. Longhorn isn’t a brandname. Longhorn, when it is released, will be called Windows XP2 or something. Longhorn is just the internal development codename. I would also like to point out to all these people saying that no one cares if IE supports CSS or PNG or whatever other arcane formatting standard might be out there that you’re dead wrong. People don’t care about those things if you describe them that way, of course. But as time passes, more and more websites are going to use these new technologies, and browsers that can’t support them are going to appear broken. Oh, because of IE’s market share, developers will always make sure that sites don’t look terrible in IE, but there _will_ be missing features. And people, even computer illiterate people, do care about that. The quote from MS about not caring about CSS is pure arrogance. It’s claiming that MS can release crap software that’s three years out of date, and because of their OS monopoly, still maintain market share. It’s this sort of attitude that peeves those who are computer literate, and it’s an attitue that universally hurts computer users, be they literate or not. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-the-fox-outrun-the-explorer/270326.md?page=2)