# Will the history books say we won or lost the War in Iraq? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [May 6, 2010, 1:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-the-history-books-say-we-won-or-lost-the-war-in-iraq/538504 "2010-05-06T13:23:45Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2010, 7:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-the-history-books-say-we-won-or-lost-the-war-in-iraq/538504/81 "2010-05-24T19:04:01Z")
For a country to win a war means that they accomplished their objectives, and for a country to lose a war means that they failed to accomplish their objectives. But the whole concept breaks down when a country didn’t have any objectives. ---
**Author:** ![Condescending\_Robot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a183cd/32.png) [@Condescending\_Robot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Condescending_Robot)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2010, 8:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-the-history-books-say-we-won-or-lost-the-war-in-iraq/538504/82 "2010-05-24T20:38:10Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > Probably it will be ignored as much as possible, unless Iraqis are taking revenge by blowing things up. It was a war of aggression, built on lies and one that did a great deal of damage to this country; that of course will all be conveniently forgotten and replaced with nonsense about how it was for freedom and democracy, and the Iraqi casualties won’t even be mentioned. And, to the extent that it is regarded a failure, the failure will be blamed of the Left, the media, and on insufficient brutality, as it always is. Pretty much this, though it will also become a narrative all about the soldiers. Much like how the story taught about Vietnam is that the returning soldiers weren’t treated properly (complete with fabricated history about being spat on at airports), with all the brown-skinned casualties relegated to second place in the pecking order behind the precious feelings of Americans. ---
**Author:** ![Superhal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b4bc9f/32.png) [@Superhal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Superhal)\ **Post date:** [May 25, 2010, 3:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-the-history-books-say-we-won-or-lost-the-war-in-iraq/538504/83 "2010-05-25T03:52:59Z")
That’s assuming the war ever ends. I would theorize that the war will never end until the oil companies get all the oil, or alternative energy makes oil less profitable. ---
**Author:** ![Frank](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Frank](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frank)\ **Post date:** [May 25, 2010, 3:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-the-history-books-say-we-won-or-lost-the-war-in-iraq/538504/84 "2010-05-25T03:59:17Z")
> [@Agent\_Foxtrot](#): > > On one hand, the United States removed a dictator from power, gave him a (somewhat fair) trial, … In fact, Saddam was tried by the puppet government the U.S. had installed, not by the U.S. Fairness had nothing to do with it. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Tooth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/c67d28/32.png) [@The\_Tooth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Tooth)\ **Post date:** [May 25, 2010, 4:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-the-history-books-say-we-won-or-lost-the-war-in-iraq/538504/85 "2010-05-25T04:39:42Z")
> [@Curtis LeMay](#): > > The Iraq War will go down as an American victory. Iraq will be a stable democracy and the seeds of freedom planted there. Will this book explain why the invasion was a victory even though the weapons that were alleged to justify it were never found, or will Bush’s lies be ignored altogether? And your wrong. Your talking points won’t make it into the history books. It’d be silly to think your cheerleading will be taken seriously. ---
**Author:** ![Marmite\_Lover](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e495f1/32.png) [@Marmite\_Lover](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marmite_Lover)\ **Post date:** [May 25, 2010, 8:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-the-history-books-say-we-won-or-lost-the-war-in-iraq/538504/86 "2010-05-25T08:47:25Z")
> [@Kolak\_of\_Twilo](#): > > Are you kidding me? Where has the the US _EVER_ put forth the idea that **IRAN** committed the gas attack at Halabja? > CITE? Analysis of thousands of captured Iraqi secret police documents and declassified U.S. government documents, as well as interviews with scores of Kurdish survivors, senior Iraqi defectors and retired U.S. intelligence officers, show (1) that Iraq carried out the attack on Halabja, and (2) that the United States, fully aware it was Iraq, accused Iran, Iraq’s enemy in a fierce war, of being partly responsible for the attack. The State Department instructed its diplomats to say that Iran was partly to blame. … [http://www.nytimes.com/2003/01/17/opinion/17iht-edjoost\_ed3\_.html](http://www.nytimes.com/2003/01/17/opinion/17iht-edjoost_ed3_.html) ---
**Author:** ![Mops](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mops/32/16494_2.png) [@Mops](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mops)\ **Post date:** [May 25, 2010, 10:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-the-history-books-say-we-won-or-lost-the-war-in-iraq/538504/87 "2010-05-25T10:40:23Z")
> [@Agent\_Foxtrot](#): > > … On one hand, the United States removed a dictator from power, gave him a (somewhat fair) trial, and attempted to install a democratic government. Supposedly these were the major goals by George W. Bush’s White House. > > On the other hand, the new democratic government is shaky, piecemeal, and prone to corruption. … I dare say for most history books (at least the academic ones as opposed to US schoolbooks) democracy, stability and quality of life for the people of Iraq (or their absence) will be neither here nor there regarding the question whether the US won or lost the war. What’s going to count is whether Iraq’s governments in the next decade or two will align themselves with or against US interests. ---
**Author:** ![septimus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/septimus/32/410_2.png) [@septimus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/septimus)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2010, 5:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-the-history-books-say-we-won-or-lost-the-war-in-iraq/538504/88 "2010-05-26T05:42:07Z")
> [@Curtis LeMay](#): > > Your posts are as usual utter rubbish. I do support women’s rights, I do not support their rights to an abortion but nor do I support anyone’s right to have an abortion. I’m trying to parse this sentence. You oppose women’s rights to an abortion, but that’s not anti-women’s rights because you also oppose men’s rights to an abortion. Have I got that right? ---
**Author:** ![ASL\_gamer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/5daacb/32.png) [@ASL\_gamer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ASL_gamer)\ **Post date:** [May 30, 2010, 4:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-the-history-books-say-we-won-or-lost-the-war-in-iraq/538504/89 "2010-05-30T04:35:42Z")
I don’t understand how so many people can defend the actions of the Bush administration…he’s gotta be THE worst president to ever hold office and twice! Trust me, Iraq will NEVER be a true democracy, it’s religion is too deeply tied to its political ideology. His damn election was controversial. And its religion is not for sale. Sadly I say this but I wish it were different…too many strange things happened in 2001. :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/f04885/32.png) [@Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Qin_Shi_Huangdi)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2010, 1:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-the-history-books-say-we-won-or-lost-the-war-in-iraq/538504/90 "2010-06-01T01:01:44Z")
> [@septimus](#): > > Not long after the end of WW II, most of Germany was free, prosperous and democratic. Does that mean they won the war? No. The answer to OP is that even if Iraq pumps two billion barrels next year, the War in Iraq will be regarded as perhaps GWB’s biggest mistake. And that was an Adminstration with _many_ big mistakes. Except Germany was defeated by the United States in World War II while _we_ defeated Iraq in the Iraq War so the analogy doesn’t work. > [@Superhal](#): > > That’s assuming the war ever ends. I would theorize that the war will never end until the oil companies get all the oil, or alternative energy makes oil less profitable. How would you explain all the US troops being withdrawn right now? :rolleyes: > [@Frank](#): > > In fact, Saddam was tried by the puppet government the U.S. had installed, not by the U.S. Fairness had nothing to do with it. Its hardly a puppet government. Maliki’s been pressuring the US to withdraw for the last year or two. > [@The\_Tooth](#): > > Will this book explain why the invasion was a victory even though the weapons that were alleged to justify it were never found, or will Bush’s lies be ignored altogether? > > And your wrong. Your talking points won’t make it into the history books. It’d be silly to think your cheerleading will be taken seriously. It was a mistake but a mistake made from utilizing information and which was a rational conclusion. > [@septimus](#): > > I’m trying to parse this sentence. You oppose women’s rights to an abortion, but that’s not anti-women’s rights because you also oppose men’s rights to an abortion. > > Have I got that right? I don’t support men to force women to have an abortion or families to force minors to have an abortion. > [@ASL\_gamer](#): > > I don’t understand how so many people can defend the actions of the Bush administration…he’s gotta be THE worst president to ever hold office and twice! Trust me, Iraq will NEVER be a true democracy, it’s religion is too deeply tied to its political ideology. His damn election was controversial. And its religion is not for sale. > > Sadly I say this but I wish it were different…too many strange things happened in 2001. > > :rolleyes: With all due respect this sounds parodic. George W Bush, no matter how the Iraq War turns out, will not be the worst President due to a certain man known as James Buchanan. Plus considering Iraq has made somewhat of a functioning democracy in the last few years your comment seems to be rather hasty. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2010, 1:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-the-history-books-say-we-won-or-lost-the-war-in-iraq/538504/91 "2010-06-01T01:05:58Z")
> [@Curtis LeMay](#): > > It was a mistake but a mistake made from utilizing information and which was a rational conclusion. Garbage. The war was based on cherry picked intelligence and outright lies. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Tooth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/c67d28/32.png) [@The\_Tooth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Tooth)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2010, 1:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-the-history-books-say-we-won-or-lost-the-war-in-iraq/538504/92 "2010-06-01T01:23:40Z")
> [@Curtis LeMay](#): > > It was a mistake but a mistake made from utilizing information and which was a rational conclusion. No. Inspection reports at the time did not support the US’s claims. US troops did not move to inspect alleged depots but secured Iraq’s Oil Ministry. When it was shown that the US’s claims were false, Bush reacted not by withdrawing his military in horror and making reparations, but by making a funny video about looking for weapons in his office and continuing with the invasion. It’s ludicrous to even suggest the US government was acting in anything like good faith. ---
**Author:** ![Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/f04885/32.png) [@Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Qin_Shi_Huangdi)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2010, 1:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-the-history-books-say-we-won-or-lost-the-war-in-iraq/538504/93 "2010-06-01T01:26:20Z")
> [@The\_Tooth](#): > > No. Inspection reports at the time did not support the US’s claims. US troops did not move to inspect alleged depots but secured Iraq’s Oil Ministry. When it was shown that the US’s claims were false, Bush reacted not by withdrawing his military in horror and making reparations, but by making a funny video about looking for weapons in his office and continuing with the invasion. Once the invasion happened what were we supposed to do? Iraq within a few days of the invasion had its government shattered from various factors. Plus by reparations do you mean giving it to the Hussein regime?!?! Also the selfish option would have been just occupying oil rich areas and have the US directly take control of the oil fields. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2010, 1:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-the-history-books-say-we-won-or-lost-the-war-in-iraq/538504/94 "2010-06-01T01:28:58Z")
> [@Curtis LeMay](#): > > Also the selfish option would have been just occupying oil rich areas and have the US directly take control of the oil fields. Nothing we did in Iraq was anything but selfish or worse. ---
**Author:** ![Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/f04885/32.png) [@Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Qin_Shi_Huangdi)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2010, 1:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-the-history-books-say-we-won-or-lost-the-war-in-iraq/538504/95 "2010-06-01T01:32:54Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > Nothing we did in Iraq was anything but selfish or worse. Only the Sith deal in absolutes. :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skald_the_Rhymer)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2010, 1:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-the-history-books-say-we-won-or-lost-the-war-in-iraq/538504/96 "2010-06-01T01:34:50Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > Garbage. The war was based on cherry picked intelligence and outright lies. I’m surprised at you, **Der Trihs**. You don’t need the phrase _cherry picked intelligence_ there, dude. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2010, 1:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-the-history-books-say-we-won-or-lost-the-war-in-iraq/538504/97 "2010-06-01T01:35:36Z")
> [@Curtis LeMay](#): > > Only the Sith deal in absolutes. :rolleyes: A movie quote is your defense of American behavior? And not even one that makes sense, since it is internally contradictory as various people have pointed out. ---
**Author:** ![Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/f04885/32.png) [@Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Qin_Shi_Huangdi)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2010, 1:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-the-history-books-say-we-won-or-lost-the-war-in-iraq/538504/98 "2010-06-01T01:37:09Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > A movie quote is your defense of American behavior? And not even one that makes sense, since it is internally contradictory as various people have pointed out. I was being sarcastic. Plus for an atheist who should be rational you make plenty of absolute statements about how the US is always evil, selfish, etc. ---
**Author:** ![Llama\_Llogophile](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/49beb7/32.png) [@Llama\_Llogophile](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Llama_Llogophile)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2010, 1:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-the-history-books-say-we-won-or-lost-the-war-in-iraq/538504/99 "2010-06-01T01:37:31Z")
> [@Curtis LeMay](#): > > Except Germany was defeated by the United States in World War II while _we_ defeated Iraq in the Iraq War so the analogy doesn’t work. Yeah, Britain and all the other Allies had nothing to do with defeating Germany. USA! USA! USA! Seriously, we’ve been through this kind of thing with you before. Your pattern seems to be to take a staunch position, then cherry pick examples from history to support it. Only your command of history sometimes fails you, yet you stick to your position no matter what. It’s been said to you before, and I’ll chime in now too: Other people are right sometimes, and many of them have more experience than you. Learn from them. There’s no shame in that. ---
**Author:** ![Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/f04885/32.png) [@Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Qin_Shi_Huangdi)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2010, 1:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-the-history-books-say-we-won-or-lost-the-war-in-iraq/538504/100 "2010-06-01T01:39:43Z")
> [@Mach Tuck](#): > > Yeah, Britain and all the other Allies had nothing to do with defeating Germany. USA! USA! USA! > > Seriously, we’ve been through this kind of thing with you before. Your pattern seems to be to take a staunch position, then cherry pick examples from history to support it. Only your command of history sometimes fails you, yet you stick to your position no matter what. > > It’s been said to you before, and I’ll chime in now too: Other people are right sometimes, and many of them have more experience than you. Learn from them. There’s no shame in that. So should I have listed all the Allied nations in World War II down to Uruguay and Mongolia? I was making a simplified statement because it wasn’t really necessary to list every Allied nations. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-the-history-books-say-we-won-or-lost-the-war-in-iraq/538504.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-the-history-books-say-we-won-or-lost-the-war-in-iraq/538504.md?page=6)