# Will the history books say we won or lost the War in Iraq? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [May 6, 2010, 1:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-the-history-books-say-we-won-or-lost-the-war-in-iraq/538504 "2010-05-06T13:23:45Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 6
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2010, 1:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-the-history-books-say-we-won-or-lost-the-war-in-iraq/538504/101 "2010-06-01T01:43:23Z")
There was never any good reason for the invasion. It was obvious to the people who engineered it and to anyone else not deliberately blinding themselves that every justification given was built on a stack of lies. Once the war ends, it will be remembered as nothing more than an embarrassing, tragic, and unnecessary waste of our national resources and of lives on every side of the conflict. Trillions of dollars will have been wasted, and thousands of precious lives will have been extinguished for little if any gain. The war, along with torture and other appurtenant outrages, will constitute one of the most shameful acts perpetrated by our government in our name, on par with the Trail of Tears and slavery. ---
**Author:** ![Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/f04885/32.png) [@Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Qin_Shi_Huangdi)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2010, 1:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-the-history-books-say-we-won-or-lost-the-war-in-iraq/538504/102 "2010-06-01T01:45:39Z")
> [@acsenray](#): > > There was never any good reason for the invasion. It was obvious to the people who engineered it and to anyone else not deliberately blinding themselves that every justification given was built on a stack of lies. > > Once the war ends, it will be remembered as nothing more than an embarrassing, tragic, and unnecessary waste of our national resources and of lives on every side of the conflict. Trillions of dollars will have been wasted, and thousands of precious lives will have been extinguished for little if any gain. > > The war, along with torture and other appurtenant outrages, will constitute one of the most shameful acts perpetrated by our government in our name, on par with the Trail of Tears and slavery. A foolish move that caused a lot of destruction? Maybe. An evil move compared to slavery? No. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Tooth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/c67d28/32.png) [@The\_Tooth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Tooth)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2010, 1:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-the-history-books-say-we-won-or-lost-the-war-in-iraq/538504/103 "2010-06-01T01:45:46Z")
> [@Curtis LeMay](#): > > Once the invasion happened what were we supposed to do? Apologize, withdraw, and make reparations. > [@](#): > > Iraq within a few days of the invasion had its government shattered from various factors. Plus by reparations do you mean giving it to the Hussein regime?!?! Ha ha, “various factors” indeed. Since he was still around then, yes. Or maybe someone else, I don’t know. I don’t have to know. I’m pretty sure what should not have happened was for the US to continue to behave as it was, however. > [@](#): > > Also the selfish option would have been just occupying oil rich areas and have the US directly take control of the oil fields. I have no idea if theirs was a good plan or not, but the US did have the Iraqi Oil Ministry Building taken immediately, and it did have legislation drafted opening up a lot of Iraq’s natural resources to foreign companies. You might convince me theirs was a bad plan without too much difficulty, but you’ll have a harder time convincing me they were acting in good faith. But you didn’t answer my question: how, if at all, will this book of yours address the fact that the claims used to justify the invasion of Iraq were false? “It was a mistake”? If so, that’s the answer. Invasion of Iraq = Mistake. One for the history books. ---
**Author:** ![Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/f04885/32.png) [@Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Qin_Shi_Huangdi)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2010, 1:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-the-history-books-say-we-won-or-lost-the-war-in-iraq/538504/104 "2010-06-01T01:49:05Z")
> [@The\_Tooth](#): > > Apologize, withdraw, and make reparations. > > Ha ha, “various factors” indeed. > > Since he was still around then, yes. Or maybe someone else, I don’t know. I don’t have to know. I’m pretty sure what should not have happened was for the US to continue to behave as it was, however. So you’ve actually suggested we give money to the government of a brutal dictator. > [@](#): > > I have no idea if theirs was a good plan or not, but the US did have the Iraqi Oil Ministry Building taken immediately, and it did have legislation drafted opening up a lot of Iraq’s natural resources to foreign companies. You might convince me theirs was a bad plan without too much difficulty, but you’ll have a harder time convincing me they were acting in good faith. > > But you didn’t answer my question: how, if at all, will this book of yours address the fact that the claims used to justify the invasion of Iraq were false? “It was a mistake”? If so, that’s the answer. Invasion of Iraq = Mistake. One for the history books. “Mistake” and “Lie” are two different things though. ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2010, 2:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-the-history-books-say-we-won-or-lost-the-war-in-iraq/538504/105 "2010-06-01T02:03:09Z")
> [@Curtis LeMay](#): > > A foolish move that caused a lot of destruction? Maybe. > An evil move compared to slavery? No. When a “mistake” is perpetrated with an absolute disregard for truth, when so manyhave been and are being sentto their deaths on the basis of a “mistake” that coils have been avoided had those in charge employed the least quantum of good faith, then it is indistinguishable from evil. Men and women join our armed forces with the understanding that their lives will be risked only for good reason. Instead we have been sending them to their deaths for no good reason at all. That is tantamount to killing them with our own hands. Serial killers get sexual satisfaction from thrir murders. We have not even that we can call as gain. To me, when you have less justification than a psychopath, you’re in the realm of evil. We might as well have lined them up over here and just shot them one by one without going yo yo trouble and expense of sending them to Iraq. ---
**Author:** ![Llama\_Llogophile](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/49beb7/32.png) [@Llama\_Llogophile](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Llama_Llogophile)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2010, 2:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-the-history-books-say-we-won-or-lost-the-war-in-iraq/538504/106 "2010-06-01T02:03:14Z")
> [@Curtis LeMay](#): > > So should I have listed all the Allied nations in World War II down to Uruguay and Mongolia? I was making a simplified statement because it wasn’t really necessary to list every Allied nations. _Shrug_ You could have just said “the Allies”. But the phraseology you used struck me almost as a kind of Freudian slip. You seem so anxious to see the U.S. as having acted rightly in Iraq that maybe you were a bit quick to attribute victory in WWII only to America. I’ve heard others who had vague or biased knowledge of history say similar things. Even if that’s not how it happened in your mind, my point is you seem to argue from a position of unyielding defense, rather than in an effort to learn. ---
**Author:** ![Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/f04885/32.png) [@Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Qin_Shi_Huangdi)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2010, 2:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-the-history-books-say-we-won-or-lost-the-war-in-iraq/538504/107 "2010-06-01T02:44:17Z")
> [@acsenray](#): > > When a “mistake” is perpetrated with an absolute disregard for truth, when so manyhave been and are being sentto their deaths on the basis of a “mistake” that coils have been avoided had those in charge employed the least quantum of good faith, then it is indistinguishable from evil. Men and women join our armed forces with the understanding that their lives will be risked only for good reason. Instead we have been sending them to their deaths for no good reason at all. That is tantamount to killing them with our own hands. Serial killers get sexual satisfaction from thrir murders. We have not even that we can call as gain. To me, when you have less justification than a psychopath, you’re in the realm of evil. We might as well have lined them up over here and just shot them one by one without going yo yo trouble and expense of sending them to Iraq. We helped build a democracy in Iraq. ---
**Author:** ![Squink](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b5e925/32.png) [@Squink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Squink)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2010, 2:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-the-history-books-say-we-won-or-lost-the-war-in-iraq/538504/108 "2010-06-01T02:58:38Z")
> [@Curtis LeMay](#): > > We helped build a democracy in Iraq. How’s that votey electy thing workin out for ya? [The country is still without a government nearly three months after voters went to the polls to choose one.](http://www.nytimes.com/2010/06/01/world/middleeast/01iraq.html) It’s looking more like an abortion than a democracy: [Round-up of Daily Violence in Iraq - Monday 31 May, 2010](http://www.mcclatchydc.com/2010/05/31/95089/round-up-of-daily-violence-in.html) ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2010, 3:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-the-history-books-say-we-won-or-lost-the-war-in-iraq/538504/109 "2010-06-01T03:03:10Z")
> [@Curtis LeMay](#): > > We helped build a democracy in Iraq. A statement pregnant with delusion. How about I come over to your house, shoot your pets and children, blow off the roof and tell you it was all for your own good? ---
**Author:** ![The\_Tooth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/c67d28/32.png) [@The\_Tooth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Tooth)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2010, 3:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-the-history-books-say-we-won-or-lost-the-war-in-iraq/538504/110 "2010-06-01T03:03:46Z")
> [@Curtis LeMay](#): > > So you’ve actually suggested we give money to the government of a brutal dictator. Wouldn’t be the first time! > [@](#): > > “Mistake” and “Lie” are two different things though. I suppose one could believe that this was just a big oopsie, that the dubious nature of the intelligence just kinda slipped past the entire US intelligence gathering machine, that the US military was accidentally ordered to ignore weapons depots in favour of natural resource offices. I suppose one could believe all that. ---
**Author:** ![septimus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/septimus/32/410_2.png) [@septimus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/septimus)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2010, 7:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-the-history-books-say-we-won-or-lost-the-war-in-iraq/538504/111 "2010-06-01T07:59:37Z")
> [@Curtis LeMay](#): > > > [@septimus](#): > > > > > [@Curtis LeMay](#): > > > > > > Your posts are as usual utter rubbish. I do support women’s rights, I do not support their rights to an abortion but nor do I support anyone’s right to have an abortion. > > > > I’m trying to parse this sentence. You oppose women’s rights to an abortion, but that’s not anti-women’s rights because you also oppose men’s rights to an abortion. > > > > Have I got that right? > > I don’t support men to force women to have an abortion or families to force minors to have an abortion. I still can’t parse you. 😃 The government should forbid abortion but appoint _women_ to kill the abortionists or whatever?? 😕 Nevermind. > [@Curtis LeMay](#): > > Except Germany was defeated by the United States in World War II while _we_ defeated Iraq in the Iraq War so the analogy doesn’t work. I can’t parse this either. You’re in school, right? Do they still teach the _paragraph_? Thesis. Clarification. Example. Reiteration. Your clause might be an explication of something but I can’t guess what. > [@Curtis LeMay](#): > > It was a mistake but a mistake made from utilizing information and which was a rational conclusion. 😕 Do you get _all_ your info from FoxNews? :smack: I’ve no idea if you really believe what you’re writing. Google “yellowcake Plame” or something if you don’t have time to actually read a book. > [@Curtis LeMay](#): > > With all due respect this sounds parodic. George W Bush, no matter how the Iraq War turns out, will not be the worst President due to a certain man known as James Buchanan. Plus considering Iraq has made somewhat of a functioning democracy in the last few years your comment seems to be rather hasty. Wrong. Bush is clearly the worst ever. Anyone who denies this is in fantasy land. 😃 There’s Doper threads on Buchanan’s failure to prevent the Civil War. What do they conclude? Or do you diagree with Lincoln and think “half-free and half-slave” would have endured for another 150 years and been just fine? ---
**Author:** ![The\_Tooth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/c67d28/32.png) [@The\_Tooth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Tooth)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2010, 1:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-the-history-books-say-we-won-or-lost-the-war-in-iraq/538504/112 "2010-06-01T13:11:10Z")
> [@Curtis LeMay](#): > > We helped build a democracy in Iraq. That doesn’t matter in the least. ---
**Author:** ![Perciful](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/b38774/32.png) [@Perciful](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Perciful)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2010, 1:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-the-history-books-say-we-won-or-lost-the-war-in-iraq/538504/113 "2010-06-01T13:43:19Z")
> [@acsenray](#): > > When a “mistake” is perpetrated with an absolute disregard for truth, when so many have been and are being sent to their deaths on the basis of a “mistake” that coils have been avoided had those in charge employed the least quantum of good faith, then it is indistinguishable from evil. Men and women join our armed forces with the understanding that their lives will be risked only for good reason. Instead we have been sending them to their deaths for no good reason at all. That is tantamount to killing them with our own hands. Serial killers get sexual satisfaction from thrir murders. We have not even that we can call as gain. To me, when you have less justification than a psychopath, you’re in the realm of evil. We might as well have lined them up over here and just shot them one by one without going yo yo trouble and expense of sending them to Iraq. Very astute observation. Evil doesn’t make sense and sometimes it is so absurd that it is unthinkable. That is where we get into trouble. We think we are doing the right things for the right reasons until you lift it to the light and really look at it. Then you realize that beautiful bouquet of freedom is really a bunch of maggots and you drop it and have to look away. It is too disgusting to look at but we must. How many Jews died because the government said it was the right thing to do? Did it ever occur to the people that it was wrong to put human beings on railway cars and send them away to be slaughtered like animals? Sure it did but the country said it was the right thing to do with these “Jews”. They were the problem. Or was evil at the helm the real problem? History shows it was one psychopath on a mission that caused it. How did he pull it off? Why didn’t anybody stand up and revolt? It can happen again. It could be us or some segment of our population being herded onto a death train with our own next door neighbors pushing us on the train at gunpoint. We need to hold up the maggot covered bouquet of freedom to the light and examine it and why it is hard to look at. What is wrong with it? What doesn’t make sense and why? Is my government doing something good in Iraq or something evil? Is Iraq even the problem or is it someones solution? Think, Think, Think! ---
**Author:** ![Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/f04885/32.png) [@Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Qin_Shi_Huangdi)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2010, 1:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-the-history-books-say-we-won-or-lost-the-war-in-iraq/538504/114 "2010-06-02T01:48:32Z")
> [@septimus](#): > > Wrong. Bush is clearly the worst ever. Anyone who denies this is in fantasy land. 😃 That’s irrational and ridiculous. > [@](#): > > There’s Doper threads on Buchanan’s failure to prevent the Civil War. What do they conclude? Or do you diagree with Lincoln and think “half-free and half-slave” would have endured for another 150 years and been just fine? Why the Hell do you think I support slavery? Anyways Buchanan was a pathetic weakling who didn’t do anything to say prepare the Union for war and generally sucked up to the South. ---
**Author:** ![septimus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/septimus/32/410_2.png) [@septimus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/septimus)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2010, 9:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-the-history-books-say-we-won-or-lost-the-war-in-iraq/538504/115 "2010-06-02T09:27:09Z")
> [@Curtis LeMay](#): > > That’s irrational and ridiculous. To keep the “debate” focused, can you pick just one? Is my claim especially irrational, or especially ridiculous? > [@Curtis LeMay](#): > > Why the Hell do you think I support slavery? Anyways Buchanan was a pathetic weakling who didn’t do anything to say prepare the Union for war and generally sucked up to the South. I didn’t think you _did_ support slavery, though I do admit to being unclear on your political views. Did you ever answer the abortion question? For that matter, did you Google “yellowcake Plame” like I told you to? Buchanan was selected as a pro-Southern and tried, however ineptly, to serve Southern interests. Whose interests was Bush serving? Halliburton’s? Most of us now understand that he took one winnable necessary war and “doubled down” to _lose two wars_ … for no discernable reason except his opportunity for a fighter-jet publicity stunt. > [@California State Issues -- June 2010](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/california-state-issues-june-2010/540597/34): > > Also for the [California] ballot (Republican) > Secretary of State-Orly TAITZ Oh, perhaps I should apologize! I didn’t realize you were such a discerning and clear-minded political expert. :dubious: ---
**Author:** ![Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/f04885/32.png) [@Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Qin_Shi_Huangdi)\ **Post date:** [June 4, 2010, 11:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-the-history-books-say-we-won-or-lost-the-war-in-iraq/538504/116 "2010-06-04T23:45:49Z")
> [@septimus](#): > > To keep the “debate” focused, can you pick just one? Is my claim especially irrational, or especially ridiculous? > > I didn’t think you _did_ support slavery, though I do admit to being unclear on your political views. Did you ever answer the abortion question? For that matter, did you Google “yellowcake Plame” like I told you to? > > Buchanan was selected as a pro-Southern and tried, however ineptly, to serve Southern interests. Whose interests was Bush serving? Halliburton’s? Most of us now understand that he took one winnable necessary war and “doubled down” to _lose two wars_ … for no discernable reason except his opportunity for a fighter-jet publicity stunt. He did not particularly serve any corporation and even if he did unlike Buchanan he did not cause a rebellion that killed 600,000+ people. ---
**Author:** ![Yumblie](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/76d3ee/32.png) [@Yumblie](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Yumblie)\ **Post date:** [June 5, 2010, 2:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-the-history-books-say-we-won-or-lost-the-war-in-iraq/538504/117 "2010-06-05T02:15:25Z")
I think it’s unfair to say Buchanan _caused_ the Civil War. Given the political climate, it seemed like a conflict was inevitable. He certainly didn’t do much to stop it. Bush, on the other hand, _caused_ his major disaster. There was no inevitable conflict with Iraq until Bush came into the picture. He went out of his way to destroy the country and everyone would have been better off if he hadn’t done it. Sure the Civil War took more American lives than the Iraq War, but Bush is far more culpable for Iraq than Buchanan is for the Civil War. ---
**Author:** ![Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/f04885/32.png) [@Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Qin_Shi_Huangdi)\ **Post date:** [June 5, 2010, 3:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-the-history-books-say-we-won-or-lost-the-war-in-iraq/538504/118 "2010-06-05T15:31:53Z")
> [@Yumblie](#): > > I think it’s unfair to say Buchanan _caused_ the Civil War. Given the political climate, it seemed like a conflict was inevitable. He certainly didn’t do much to stop it. > > Bush, on the other hand, _caused_ his major disaster. There was no inevitable conflict with Iraq until Bush came into the picture. He went out of his way to destroy the country and everyone would have been better off if he hadn’t done it. Sure the Civil War took more American lives than the Iraq War, but Bush is far more culpable for Iraq than Buchanan is for the Civil War. He could have mitigated its effects by preparing for war or jailing major Rebels but he did nothing other than complain and beg. ---
**Author:** ![Squink](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b5e925/32.png) [@Squink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Squink)\ **Post date:** [June 13, 2010, 9:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-the-history-books-say-we-won-or-lost-the-war-in-iraq/538504/119 "2010-06-13T21:20:13Z")
This does not sound like victory: > [@](#): > > Gunmen wearing military uniforms stormed Iraq’s central bank Sunday in an apparent robbery attempt, battling security forces in a three-hour standoff after bombs exploded nearby in a brazen daylight attack that left at least 15 people dead. > > The assault on Iraq’s top financial institution stoked fears that insurgents are taking advantage of political deadlock after inconclusive March 7 national elections to try to derail security gains. > > The 325-member parliament was due to convene Monday, but analysts have said agreement on a new government could still be months away. [Gunmen storm Iraq’s central bank; 15 killed](http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20100613/ap_on_re_mi_ea/ml_iraq) ---
**Author:** ![Dick\_Dastardly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/c4cdca/32.png) [@Dick\_Dastardly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dick_Dastardly)\ **Post date:** [June 13, 2010, 9:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-the-history-books-say-we-won-or-lost-the-war-in-iraq/538504/120 "2010-06-13T21:27:30Z")
Iraq the most violent country in the world, in last place in this index below democratic paradise Somalia : [http://www.visionofhumanity.org/gpi-data/#/2010/scor](http://www.visionofhumanity.org/gpi-data/#/2010/scor) Pointing this out is a typically liberal defeatist way of looking at the situation over there though. The correct way to look at it is that there’s lots of potential for improvement. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-the-history-books-say-we-won-or-lost-the-war-in-iraq/538504.md?page=5) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-the-history-books-say-we-won-or-lost-the-war-in-iraq/538504.md?page=7)