# Will the Iraqi Kurds declare independence? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [June 24, 2014, 12:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-the-iraqi-kurds-declare-independence/691495 "2014-06-24T00:09:23Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![NotfooledbyW](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/f475e1/32.png) [@NotfooledbyW](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NotfooledbyW)\ **Post date:** [June 28, 2014, 3:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-the-iraqi-kurds-declare-independence/691495/41 "2014-06-28T03:00:58Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > And team up with that jolly fellow, Muqtada al Sadr. That idea makes the neocon argument look like pure genius. Do you have an argument or a meaningful point for discussion? Do you dispute that Sadr has taken a very non-sectarian role in all this? Your argument seems to be lacking coherence at the moment. Is ‘assisting Iraqi counterterrorism forces to repel the insurgency’ purely a neocon strategy? > [@](#): > > The U.S. special forces will be advising and assisting Iraqi counterterrorism forces to repel the insurgency. U.S. officials said they will be in operations centers in Baghdad and northern Iraq. [http://news.yahoo.com/iraqi-parliament-prepares-start-next-week-183423988.html;\_ylt=AwrBTzbmK65TN0UARhlx.9w4;\_ylu=X3oDMTBsa3ZzMnBvBHNlYwNzYwRjb2xvA2JmMQR2dGlkAw--](http://news.yahoo.com/iraqi-parliament-prepares-start-next-week-183423988.html;_ylt=AwrBTzbmK65TN0UARhlx.9w4;_ylu=X3oDMTBsa3ZzMnBvBHNlYwNzYwRjb2xvA2JmMQR2dGlkAw--) > [@](#): > > Iraq’s powerful Shiite cleric Muqtada al-Sadr made a televised statement late Wednesday in which he called for a national unity government of “new faces” representing all groups. > > Al-Sadr, whose followers fought fiercely against both U.S. forces and Sunni extremists during the height of the war nearly a decade ago, also vowed to “shake the ground” under the feet of the al-Qaida breakaway group that has threatened to advance toward Baghdad and holy Shiite cities in the south. Who do you think the US Special Forces are hooking up with in bases in Northern Iraq? Would that not be Kurdish territory where our guys might be working with those Delta Force trained counter-terrorism Peshmerga units? ---
**Author:** ![casdave](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/c6cbf5/32.png) [@casdave](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/casdave)\ **Post date:** [June 28, 2014, 8:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-the-iraqi-kurds-declare-independence/691495/42 "2014-06-28T20:51:28Z")
If you are a nascent state, you probably want to be seen by the other local powers as a responsible player, with some diplomatic awareness. I somehow doubt that being seen to take part in a land grab for some territory that is only tenuously Kurdish would promote that view. They would probably be better off waiting until someone invites them, and provides them with the supplies, and that someone is highly likely to have the ear of NATO. Being invited to assist then has the implications of recognition rights, you can see why there would be some caution from various parties. The Kurds can wait it out, ISIS is not liked by many of the main players and the Kurds have the means to defend themselves, they are organised - something that seems lacking on all sides of the Iraq breakup. No point in charging in to a costly adventure until there is something to be gained, for Kurds it is some sort of move toward recognising a national identity, which will be well short of full statehood, for them its a process that will take time. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [June 28, 2014, 10:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-the-iraqi-kurds-declare-independence/691495/43 "2014-06-28T22:28:49Z")
> [@casdave](#): > > If you are a nascent state, you probably want to be seen by the other local powers as a responsible player, with some diplomatic awareness. > > I somehow doubt that being seen to take part in a land grab for some territory that is only tenuously Kurdish would promote that view. True WRT Mosul; OTOH, [the Kurds have definitely ruled out ever giving up Kirkuk](http://www.aljazeera.com/news/middleeast/2014/06/iraq-kurds-rule-out-retreating-from-kirkuk-20146271440878594.html). > [@](#): > > The president of the Kurdish region of northern Iraq has issued a defiant statement to the Iraqi government that there was no going back on autonomous Kurdish rule in the oil city Kirkuk. > > Massoud Barzani, president of the Kurdistan Regional Government, made the comments at a joint news conference in Erbil with visiting William Hague, British foreign secretary, on Friday. > > “We waited for 10 years for Baghdad to solve Article 140,” he said, referring to the constitutional item which was meant to address the Kurds’ decades-old ambition to incorporate the territory in their autonomous region in the north over the objections of successive governments in Baghdad. > > “Now its accomplished because the Iraqi army pulled out and our Peshmerga forces had to step in. So now the problem is solved. There will be more no more conversation about it.” ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [June 28, 2014, 10:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-the-iraqi-kurds-declare-independence/691495/44 "2014-06-28T22:32:31Z")
OTOH, the Kurds now [have put tight restrictions on refugees from Mosul entering their region](http://www.cnn.com/2014/06/28/world/meast/iraq-crisis/). Not sure if that portends disinterest in Mosul, or simply a sense of being overwhelmed, or what. ---
**Author:** ![voltaire](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voltaire/32/313_2.png) [@voltaire](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/voltaire)\ **Post date:** [June 29, 2014, 5:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-the-iraqi-kurds-declare-independence/691495/45 "2014-06-29T05:53:02Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > OTOH, the Kurds now [have put tight restrictions on refugees from Mosul entering their region](http://www.cnn.com/2014/06/28/world/meast/iraq-crisis/). Not sure if that portends disinterest in Mosul, or simply a sense of being overwhelmed, or what. It most likely portends that the Kurds are concerned about allowing in covert elements of ISIS, as well as the likelihood that this wave of refugees would tend to be more sympathetic towards them. After all, those fleeing now, are fleeing the same thing - the ISF and the militias. From your link: > [@](#): > > Sheikh Khamis al-Joubouri, a key tribal leader in Tikrit, told CNN that the Iraqi security forces entered the city supported by special forces and fighters from among the local tribes, and had gained control. He said **ISIS fighters retreated in the direction of Kirkuk and Nineveh provinces.** > \ > Iraq’s air force carried out a series of airstrikes on Mosul, according to a senior Iraqi military official. The airstrikes targeted four locations inside Iraq’s second-largest city, including ISIS headquarters, said Mazen al-Safaar, a traffic director in Mosul. But a doctor says the airstrikes also hit Mosul’s administration building and the Old City’s shopping district. **At least seven civilians were killed and two were wounded in the airstrikes** , according to Dr. Salaheldin al-Naimi, the director of the health administration. > \ > On Friday, Amnesty International said it had gathered evidence pointing to a pattern of \*\* “extrajudicial executions” of Sunni detainees by government forces and Shiite militias\*\* in Tal Afar, Mosul and Baquba. “Reports of multiple incidents where Sunni detainees have been killed in cold blood while in the custody of Iraqi forces are deeply alarming,” said Donatella Rovera, Amnesty International’s senior crisis response adviser, who is in northern Iraq. “The killings suggest a worrying pattern of **reprisal attacks against Sunnis in retaliation for ISIS.** ” The Kurdish region is nowhere near as secure and locked-down as some people seem to think it is. [Here’s an article](http://www.washingtonpost.com/world/isis-recruits-kurdish-youth-creating-a-potential-new-risk-in-a-peaceful-part-of-iraq/2014/06/23/2961ea2e-defd-4123-8e31-c908f583c5de_story.html) talking about the deep inroads that ISIS has been (and \*had \*been able to make, even before launching the offensives within Iraq) among the disaffected Kurdish youth, there. ---
**Author:** ![NotfooledbyW](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/f475e1/32.png) [@NotfooledbyW](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NotfooledbyW)\ **Post date:** [June 29, 2014, 4:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-the-iraqi-kurds-declare-independence/691495/46 "2014-06-29T16:04:38Z")
> [@voltaire](#): > > It most likely portends that the Kurds are concerned about allowing in covert elements of ISIS, as well as the likelihood that this wave of refugees would tend to be more sympathetic towards them. After all, those fleeing now, are fleeing the same thing - the ISF and the militias. From your link: > > The Kurdish region is nowhere near as secure and locked-down as some people seem to think it is. [Here’s an article](http://www.washingtonpost.com/world/isis-recruits-kurdish-youth-creating-a-potential-new-risk-in-a-peaceful-part-of-iraq/2014/06/23/2961ea2e-defd-4123-8e31-c908f583c5de_story.html) talking about the deep inroads that ISIS has been (and \*had \*been able to make, even before launching the offensives within Iraq) among the disaffected Kurdish youth, there. All the more reason to believe that the Peshmerga CT trained forces will be eager to go after the ISIS vermin in the nests were they breed no matter how far beyond any territorial border the Kurds gainfully occupy. You cant wait until the vermin attack on your soil before efforts to exterminate them begin. The Kurds also benefit when the ISF strike ISIS and any internal Iraqi support that they find. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [June 29, 2014, 6:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-the-iraqi-kurds-declare-independence/691495/47 "2014-06-29T18:42:14Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > OTOH, the Kurds now [have put tight restrictions on refugees from Mosul entering their region](http://www.cnn.com/2014/06/28/world/meast/iraq-crisis/). Not sure if that portends disinterest in Mosul, or simply a sense of being overwhelmed, or what. Also, if you’re Kurdish and trying to establish an independent Kurdish homeland, you don’t want a bunch of Arabs flooding in and diluting your majority status. ---
**Author:** ![NotfooledbyW](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/f475e1/32.png) [@NotfooledbyW](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NotfooledbyW)\ **Post date:** [June 29, 2014, 7:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-the-iraqi-kurds-declare-independence/691495/48 "2014-06-29T19:16:56Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > Also, if you’re Kurdish and trying to establish an independent Kurdish homeland, you don’t want a bunch of Arabs flooding in and diluting your majority status. So what does that mean to the Kurds with respect to the reasons ‘a bunch of Arabs’ are flooding into the homeland? Wouid they not be interested in defeating the vermin that are causing the dislocations in the first place. ---
**Author:** ![casdave](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/c6cbf5/32.png) [@casdave](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/casdave)\ **Post date:** [June 29, 2014, 7:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-the-iraqi-kurds-declare-independence/691495/49 "2014-06-29T19:42:59Z")
So long as it is not happening in their territory, why would they care, as far as they are concerned then having Iraqis fight each other creates the disunity that keeps unwanted attention on them, and gives them the opportunity to carry on with their state building. ---
**Author:** ![CarnalK](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnalk/32/486_2.png) [@CarnalK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CarnalK)\ **Post date:** [June 29, 2014, 8:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-the-iraqi-kurds-declare-independence/691495/50 "2014-06-29T20:01:07Z")
> [@NotfooledbyW](#): > > So what does that mean to the Kurds with respect to the reasons ‘a bunch of Arabs’ are flooding into the homeland? Wouid they not be interested in defeating the vermin that are causing the dislocations in the first place. You know, using dehumanizing terms like “vermin” and “exterminate” makes you look like a bit of a nut job. Before you go off on a rant about how bad ISIL is, I am not defending them. You’ve just got all this over the top G.I. Joe verbiage that I suppose you think makes some kind of impact but the impression is of someone who is mildly unhinged. “Light them up”? Come on dude. ---
**Author:** ![NotfooledbyW](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/f475e1/32.png) [@NotfooledbyW](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NotfooledbyW)\ **Post date:** [June 29, 2014, 8:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-the-iraqi-kurds-declare-independence/691495/51 "2014-06-29T20:26:15Z")
> [@CarnalK](#): > > You know, using dehumanizing terms like “vermin” and “exterminate” makes you look like a bit of a nut job. Before you go off on a rant about how bad ISIL is, I am not defending them. You’ve just got all this over the top G.I. Joe verbiage that I suppose you think makes some kind of impact but the impression is uof someone who is mildly unhinged. “Light them up”? Come on dude. I saw the photos of these vermin firing machine guns at point blank range into dozens of Iraqi Shiite males lying on their stomach in a makeshift mass graves. If they aren’t vermin I don’t know what is. If calling them vermin makes me a nut-job I’ll take it any day over glossing over the atrocities of this swine because Sunnis in Iraq feel disenfranchized from the Shiite majority in Iraq. When alQaeda disavows you for extreme bloodthirsty acts your vermin status is pretty much established as I see it. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [June 29, 2014, 8:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-the-iraqi-kurds-declare-independence/691495/52 "2014-06-29T20:33:02Z")
> [@casdave](#): > > So long as it is not happening in their territory, why would they care, as far as they are concerned then having Iraqis fight each other creates the disunity that keeps unwanted attention on them, and gives them the opportunity to carry on with their state building. Indeed. In what some are calling [“The Revenge of the Kurds”](http://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-27883997), the Prime Minister of the Kurdish regional government makes it clear what their plans are: > [@](#): > > Kurdish Peshmerga forces will not help Iraq’s army retake the city of Mosul from jihadist militants, the head of the Kurdistan Regional Government says. > > \ > > Speaking to the BBC’s Jim Muir in Irbil, Mr Barzani was emphatic that the Kurds’ top priority now was to defend their own areas. > > He ruled out using Peshmerga fighters - thought to number around 75,000 - to drive out the Islamic State in Iraq and the Levant (ISIS) from Sunni Arab areas… ---
**Author:** ![CarnalK](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnalk/32/486_2.png) [@CarnalK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CarnalK)\ **Post date:** [June 29, 2014, 9:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-the-iraqi-kurds-declare-independence/691495/53 "2014-06-29T21:25:58Z")
> [@NotfooledbyW](#): > > I saw the photos of these vermin firing machine guns at point blank range into dozens of Iraqi Shiite males lying on their stomach in a makeshift mass graves. If they aren’t vermin I don’t know what is. If calling them vermin makes me a nut-job I’ll take it any day over glossing over the atrocities of this swine because Sunnis in Iraq feel disenfranchized from the Shiite majority in Iraq. > > When alQaeda disavows you for extreme bloodthirsty acts your vermin status is pretty much established as I see it. Was just suggesting a way to get yourself taken more seriously. No skin off my nose if you don’t want the advice. ---
**Author:** ![NotfooledbyW](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/f475e1/32.png) [@NotfooledbyW](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NotfooledbyW)\ **Post date:** [June 29, 2014, 9:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-the-iraqi-kurds-declare-independence/691495/54 "2014-06-29T21:36:07Z")
> [@](#): > > [@CarnalK](#): > > Was just suggesting a way to get yourself taken more seriously. No skin off my nose if you don’t want the advice. Seriously? Do you think I need you to take me seriously when all you can come up with are complaints such as using the GI Joe phrase 'light ‘em up’. If you don’t like that, how about ‘put a hellfire up their ass’? Seriously do you think I care if you take me seriously when you are the one going the ‘little bit nutty’ route. Stick to the arguments and perhaps I will care. ---
**Author:** ![CarnalK](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnalk/32/486_2.png) [@CarnalK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CarnalK)\ **Post date:** [June 29, 2014, 9:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-the-iraqi-kurds-declare-independence/691495/55 "2014-06-29T21:54:45Z")
> [@NotfooledbyW](#): > > Seriously? Do you think I need you to take me seriously when all you can come up with are complaints such as using the GI Joe phrase 'light ‘em up’. > > If you don’t like that, how about ‘put a hellfire up their ass’? > > Seriously do you think I care if you take me seriously when you are the one going the ‘little bit nutty’ route. > > Stick to the arguments and perhaps I will care. No. You don’t seem to care about arguments either. For a long time in these threads you were adamant that the Kurds were jumping into the fight to save Iraq. After a bazillion cites and quotes to the contrary, do you admit error? Of course not. Just drop it from your diatribes. Pfft to you sir. I could care less whether you care. ---
**Author:** ![NotfooledbyW](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/f475e1/32.png) [@NotfooledbyW](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NotfooledbyW)\ **Post date:** [June 29, 2014, 10:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-the-iraqi-kurds-declare-independence/691495/56 "2014-06-29T22:24:08Z")
> [@CarnalK](#): > > No. You don’t seem to care about arguments either. For a long time in these threads you were adamant that the Kurds were jumping into the fight to save Iraq. After a bazillion cites and quotes to the contrary, do you admit error? Of course not. Just drop it from your diatribes. Pfft to you sir. I could care less whether you care. You have produced nothing that shows the Kurds would not help save Baghdad/Iraq from the ISIS attack. Just because they are not needed because the Shiites and ISF have counter attacked does not mean the Kurdd were in favor of seeing Baggdad fall to terrorists from Syria. And you also play the game that disputed territory is not somehow still part of Iraq Kurds went beyond their established borders to fight ISIS and thus defend Iraq as this source shows: > [@](#): > > This week, the peshmerga patrolled the front line separating them from Sunni insurgents along wheat fields in an area known as Mula Abdula. The area is more than 30 miles from the official Kurdish zone’s borders. The area was littered with bullet casings, and gunfire and the occasional thud of a tank shell could be heard from fighting further down the road. [http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/middleeast/iraq/10913727/Iraq-crisis-Obama-dispatches-300-US-military-advisers-live.html](http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/middleeast/iraq/10913727/Iraq-crisis-Obama-dispatches-300-US-military-advisers-live.html) ---
**Author:** ![CarnalK](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnalk/32/486_2.png) [@CarnalK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CarnalK)\ **Post date:** [June 29, 2014, 10:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-the-iraqi-kurds-declare-independence/691495/57 "2014-06-29T22:30:30Z")
Oh my goodness they went up to 30 milesmpast there border to keep there border secure. You have just totally scored a point off me!. ---
**Author:** ![NotfooledbyW](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/f475e1/32.png) [@NotfooledbyW](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NotfooledbyW)\ **Post date:** [June 29, 2014, 11:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-the-iraqi-kurds-declare-independence/691495/58 "2014-06-29T23:08:30Z")
> [@CarnalK](#): > > Oh my goodness they went up to 30 milesmpast there border to keep there border secure. You have just totally scored a point off me!. One foot outside their border wipes out your argument. Sorry. That’s the way it is. And the Kurds are still part of Iraq, so defending their territory is defending Iraq. They may end up leaving Iraq, or maybe not. But they have not left yet. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [June 29, 2014, 11:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-the-iraqi-kurds-declare-independence/691495/59 "2014-06-29T23:30:53Z")
> [@CarnalK](#): > > Oh my goodness they went up to 30 milesmpast there border to keep there border secure. You have just totally scored a point off me!. Not to mention that is 30 miles form the official border. The Kurds have substantially expanded the territory they control. As noted in that article the area is only 15 miles from Kirkuk, which is now controlled by the Kurds. The Kurds are establishing a new border, so the whole “30 miles from the official border” is misleading, at best. ---
**Author:** ![NotfooledbyW](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/f475e1/32.png) [@NotfooledbyW](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NotfooledbyW)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2014, 12:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-the-iraqi-kurds-declare-independence/691495/60 "2014-06-30T00:04:57Z")
Seriously, are these vermin anything but vermin? > [@](#): > > ISIS fighters are then photographed posing over the bloodied and mutilated corpses of the slain soldiers. The ISIS photos show the capture, transport, and execution of scores of Iraqi soldiers. Most of the soldiers are in civilian clothes, but some are seen wearing civilian clothes over their uniforms. > > Iraqi soldiers had reportedly shed their uniforms and deserted en masse as the ISIS blitzkrieg advanced from Mosul to Tikrit and on to the outskirts of Samarra in the course of one week. At least four Iraqi Army divisions are said to have melted away during the ISIS onslaught. > > In the photos, the Iraqi soldiers are rounded up at gunpoint and placed on flatbed trucks, some of which appear to have been captured from the base. Some of the ISIS fighters are seen holding US-made M-16 assault rifles, which had been issued to the Iraqi Army and police forces. > > The ISIS fighters then order the frightened soldiers to lie face down in shallow ditches, with their hands behind their backs. ISIS fighters then open fire on the unarmed prisoners of war. > > The ISIS is said to have executed thousands of Iraqi soldiers during its southward advance to Baghdad. Several Iraqi military bases are believed to have been overrun. Forward Operating Base Speicher, which once was a major US military hub in Salahaddin province, was reportedly seized by the ISIS during its southward push. > > Read more: [http://www.longwarjournal.org/archives/2014/06/isis\_photographs\_det.php#ixzz364mkBB1u](http://www.longwarjournal.org/archives/2014/06/isis_photographs_det.php#ixzz364mkBB1u) [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-the-iraqi-kurds-declare-independence/691495.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-the-iraqi-kurds-declare-independence/691495.md?page=4)