# Will the Iraqi Kurds declare independence? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [June 24, 2014, 12:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-the-iraqi-kurds-declare-independence/691495 "2014-06-24T00:09:23Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![Rune](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e68b1a/32.png) [@Rune](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rune)\ **Post date:** [July 1, 2014, 11:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-the-iraqi-kurds-declare-independence/691495/81 "2014-07-01T11:41:39Z")
They should do it now. Kirkuk, which was the main issue at least with regard to borders, is abandoned by Iraq and pretty much everybody agrees that ISIS are a bunch of twats that the Kurds are quite right to do everything in their means to oppose. They should do it now while the power vacuum exists. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [July 1, 2014, 11:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-the-iraqi-kurds-declare-independence/691495/82 "2014-07-01T11:42:15Z")
Time to end yet another one of your ridiculous, semantic tap dancing hijacks. You can think the Kurds are defending Iraq all you want. No one cares. The rest of us think the Kurds are defending what they consider their territory. The cases have been made and we shall agree to disagree. The question here is whether they intend to secede or not. So far, I think it’s unclear exactly when that will happen. There can be no doubt that their eventual goal is an independent homeland. Whether the recent events give them that opportunity remains to be seen. The fighting is no where near over (despite a certain claim that “the terrorists have been stopped”). My guess is that the Kurds will proceed cautiously, and if the Sunni and Shiite Arabs are unable to successfully form a functioning government that can secure the sovereignty of the country, the Kurds will appeal to countries like the US and Turkey to support an independence movement. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [July 1, 2014, 1:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-the-iraqi-kurds-declare-independence/691495/83 "2014-07-01T13:41:18Z")
[Barzani is planning an independence referendum within the next few months.](http://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-28103124) ---
**Author:** ![NotfooledbyW](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/f475e1/32.png) [@NotfooledbyW](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NotfooledbyW)\ **Post date:** [July 1, 2014, 4:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-the-iraqi-kurds-declare-independence/691495/84 "2014-07-01T16:28:41Z")
One of Mace’s best arguments against something that cannot be refuted is to call it a hijack or senantics. That just happened again. And if the Kurds are defending their recognized territories, and territories under duspute, and have moved to split off from Iraq, they are defending Iraq. That is not semantics; that is a fact. ---
**Author:** ![CarnalK](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnalk/32/486_2.png) [@CarnalK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CarnalK)\ **Post date:** [July 1, 2014, 4:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-the-iraqi-kurds-declare-independence/691495/85 "2014-07-01T16:44:15Z")
NFBW you know, technically on paper, your argument may be correct. It’s just that off paper in the real world nobody would say you’re characterizing the situation properly. From Brainglutton’s link: > [@](#): > > Massoud Barzani said that Iraq was already “effectively partitioned”. ---
**Author:** ![NotfooledbyW](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/f475e1/32.png) [@NotfooledbyW](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NotfooledbyW)\ **Post date:** [July 1, 2014, 5:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-the-iraqi-kurds-declare-independence/691495/86 "2014-07-01T17:03:49Z")
> [@CarnalK](#): > > NFBW you know, technically on paper, your argument may be correct. It’s just that off paper in the real world nobody would say you’re characterizing the situation properly. From Brainglutton’s link: The trouble with ‘effectively partitioned’ is that Kurds have lawmakers in Baghdad continuing to try to form a new central government. Sunnis are there too. The ‘effective partition’ is (a) not full independence nor (b) Kurdish withdrawal from their obligations and rights as participants within Iraq’s central government in Baghdad. An effectively partitioned Iraq with all three parties represented in the central government is still Iraq. And you cannot deny that based upon something that may change that several months into the future. I have seen no outcries of opposition here to the thought that the Kurds will hold a referendum on possible independence in a few months or so. Perhaps a new look at Crimea and Eastern Ukraine are in order? ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [July 1, 2014, 7:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-the-iraqi-kurds-declare-independence/691495/87 "2014-07-01T19:31:16Z")
> [@NotfooledbyW](#): > > One of Mace’s best arguments against something that cannot be refuted is to call it a hijack or senantics. That just happened again. And if the Kurds are defending their recognized territories, and territories under duspute, and have moved to split off from Iraq, they are defending Iraq. That is not semantics; that is a fact. Can we drop this hijack already? ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [July 1, 2014, 10:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-the-iraqi-kurds-declare-independence/691495/88 "2014-07-01T22:48:35Z")
[The Sunnis and Kurds have walked out of the Iraqi Parliament.](http://news.yahoo.com/iraq-lawmakers-convene-form-government-battle-caliphate-022027561.html) ---
**Author:** ![NotfooledbyW](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/f475e1/32.png) [@NotfooledbyW](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NotfooledbyW)\ **Post date:** [July 2, 2014, 12:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-the-iraqi-kurds-declare-independence/691495/89 "2014-07-02T00:36:19Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > [The Sunnis and Kurds have walked out of the Iraqi Parliament.](http://news.yahoo.com/iraq-lawmakers-convene-form-government-battle-caliphate-022027561.html) So. And I’ve read it was not all of them. Not enough to form a quorum. And that has happened often. Does the walk out by some mean Kurds and Sunnis are now living in independent states" And the Sunni and Kurd regions have been '‘effectively partitioned’ by a terrorist invasion. Is that right? ---
**Author:** ![NotfooledbyW](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/f475e1/32.png) [@NotfooledbyW](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NotfooledbyW)\ **Post date:** [July 2, 2014, 12:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-the-iraqi-kurds-declare-independence/691495/90 "2014-07-02T00:55:57Z")
> [@CarnalK](#): > > NFBW you know, technically on paper, your argument may be correct. It’s just that off paper in the real world nobody would say you’re characterizing the situation properly. I’d rather be technically correct than not correct at all. Since Iraq is now indeed ‘effectively partitioned’, I say people dealing with the real world and having respect for international law and civilized order in the world, would recognize what has ‘effectively partitioned’ Iraq. The real world I live in allows me to see that Iraq has been ‘effectively partitioned’ by a military style extremist attack on Iraq by Terrorists, murderers, extortionists, assassins, thieves and plunderers. Partitioning Iraq on terms dictated by terrorists and the violence they brought to Iraq should not be conveniently acceptable in the real world that I live in. I’m for whatever it takes to exterminate the ISIS killers wherever they try to hide. Then I believe the Kurds have a legitimate right to separate peacefully and democratically from Baghdad if that is what they choose. The same goes for the Sunnis that did not side with ISIS and the terror they bring and brought into Iraq. ---
**Author:** ![CarnalK](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnalk/32/486_2.png) [@CarnalK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CarnalK)\ **Post date:** [July 2, 2014, 2:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-the-iraqi-kurds-declare-independence/691495/91 "2014-07-02T02:55:06Z")
> [@NotfooledbyW](#): > > I’d rather be technically correct than not correct at all. congrats. You’re both. ---
**Author:** ![NotfooledbyW](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/f475e1/32.png) [@NotfooledbyW](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NotfooledbyW)\ **Post date:** [July 2, 2014, 3:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-the-iraqi-kurds-declare-independence/691495/92 "2014-07-02T03:40:11Z")
> [@CarnalK](#): > > congrats. You’re both. That makes no sense at all. If you believe Kurds are no longer a part of Iraq why wouid this be going on? > [@](#): > > The Sunni and Kurdish lawmakers who walked out of the parliamentary session after the first break are united in strongly rejecting a Maliki third term. [http://www.aawsat.net/2014/07/article55333847](http://www.aawsat.net/2014/07/article55333847) What do they care if Maliki serves a third term if they don’t care if Iraq is over-run by the newly declared ‘Islamic State’ (IS)? Do you think the Sunni’s that walked out are sympathetic with the (TIS) Terrorist Islamic State and are representing them? ---
**Author:** ![tagos](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bbe5ce/32.png) [@tagos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tagos)\ **Post date:** [July 2, 2014, 9:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-the-iraqi-kurds-declare-independence/691495/93 "2014-07-02T09:43:13Z")
[Parliament collapses](http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/jul/01/iraqi-parliament-session-collapses-death-toll-isis) > [@](#): > > Hours before parliament met, the leader of the autonomous Kurdish Regional Government, Massoud Barzani, said Iraq was already “effectively partitioned”. > > Barzani told the BBC he would hold a referendum on independence for the Kurds within months, a move that, if carried out, would spell the end of the modern state of Iraq and probably inflame the surrounding region. > > “Everything that’s happened recently shows that it’s the right of Kurdistan to achieve independence,” Barzani said. “From now on, we won’t hide that that’s our goal. Iraq is effectively partitioned now. Are we supposed to stay in this tragic situation the country’s living? It’s not me who will decide on independence. It’s the people. We’ll hold a referendum and it’s a matter of months.” > > The enmity between Kurdish MPs and legislators aligned with the beleaguered prime minister, Nouri al-Maliki, flared quickly in the brief parliamentary session, with a Maliki MP angrily remonstrating with a Kurdish counterpart over demands that salaries which had been frozen by Baghdad be paid. > > “Those who tear down the Iraqi flag, we will crush with our shoes,” the Maliki MP shouted. > > Across nearly all of northern Iraq, the national flag is no longer flying. The Kurds have raised their own banner above all former central government buildings in Kirkuk, which their forces took as the Iraqi army fled from the jihadist group Islamic State in Iraq and the Levant (Isis) two weeks ago. In Iraq’s west, and some of its centre, Isis has commandeered all government buildings and at least three cities. > > Baghdad is caught in a pincer movement between the Kurds and Isis, which have no interest in the state. The Kurds, who have long been cautious about their ambitions for sovereignty, are increasingly acting without restraint as central authority crumbles. ---
**Author:** ![NotfooledbyW](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/f475e1/32.png) [@NotfooledbyW](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NotfooledbyW)\ **Post date:** [July 2, 2014, 9:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-the-iraqi-kurds-declare-independence/691495/94 "2014-07-02T09:55:02Z")
What Tagos cited contradicts the reality that Kurds are aligned with Sunnis in baghdad to form a salvation unity government without Maliki. > [@](#): > > Baghdad is caught in a pincer movement between the Kurds and Isis, which have no interest in the state. The Kurds, who have long been cautious about their ambitions for sovereignty, are increasingly acting without restraint as central authority crumbles. ---
**Author:** ![NotfooledbyW](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/f475e1/32.png) [@NotfooledbyW](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NotfooledbyW)\ **Post date:** [July 2, 2014, 9:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-the-iraqi-kurds-declare-independence/691495/95 "2014-07-02T09:58:02Z")
> [@NotfooledbyW](#): > > And the Sunni and Kurd regions have been '‘effectively partitioned’ by a terrorist invasion. Is that right? No response I see. ---
**Author:** ![tagos](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bbe5ce/32.png) [@tagos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tagos)\ **Post date:** [July 2, 2014, 10:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-the-iraqi-kurds-declare-independence/691495/96 "2014-07-02T10:43:00Z")
> [@NotfooledbyW](#): > > So you agree the initial defense of Kirkuk helped keep the Shiite government from falling into the hands of the Sunni extremists that invaded from Syria? Whether they hand it back to the Shiite controlled government is a different matter. It was the seizure of Kirkuk, not its ‘defence’. As you well know. ---
**Author:** ![tagos](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bbe5ce/32.png) [@tagos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tagos)\ **Post date:** [July 2, 2014, 10:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-the-iraqi-kurds-declare-independence/691495/97 "2014-07-02T10:46:26Z")
> [@NotfooledbyW](#): > > No response I see. That’s because we apparently speak different languages. The only thing going on here is the Kurds are using the crisis to create an independent Kurdish state containing all the oil rich bits (Kirkuk prominently) they see as part of ‘greater’ Kurdistan but which the other factions would not concede. There is nothing else happening other than turning a srisis into an opportunity. Any other interpretation is delusional. ---
**Author:** ![tagos](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bbe5ce/32.png) [@tagos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tagos)\ **Post date:** [July 2, 2014, 10:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-the-iraqi-kurds-declare-independence/691495/98 "2014-07-02T10:47:37Z")
> [@NotfooledbyW](#): > > What Tagos cited contradicts the reality that Kurds are aligned with Sunnis in baghdad to form a salvation unity government without Maliki. No. It contradicts your ‘reality’. Not the same thing. ---
**Author:** ![tagos](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bbe5ce/32.png) [@tagos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tagos)\ **Post date:** [July 2, 2014, 10:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-the-iraqi-kurds-declare-independence/691495/99 "2014-07-02T10:52:18Z")
[Horses’ mouth](http://time.com/2945035/iraqi-kurds-to-vote-on-independence/?utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=feed&utm_campaign=Feed:%20time/topstories%20(TIME:%20Top%20Stories)) > [@](#): > > “Of course we’ll help all our Arab and Sunni brothers to get out of our crisis,” Barzani said. “But that doesn’t mean we will abandon our goal and our basic project, which is the independence of Kurdistan.” Iraq is done. ---
**Author:** ![NotfooledbyW](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/f475e1/32.png) [@NotfooledbyW](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NotfooledbyW)\ **Post date:** [July 2, 2014, 11:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-the-iraqi-kurds-declare-independence/691495/100 "2014-07-02T11:19:57Z")
> [@tagos](#): > > It was the seizure of Kirkuk, not its ‘defence’. As you well know. Are you saying there was no ‘defense’ taking place when Kurds fill the security vacuum left behind by the ISF? That is an extraordinarily incomplete version of what happened. Do you agree or deny that the initial defense of Kirkuk helped keep the Shiite government from falling into the hands of the Sunni extremists that invaded from Syria? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-the-iraqi-kurds-declare-independence/691495.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-the-iraqi-kurds-declare-independence/691495.md?page=6)