# Will the Iraqi Kurds declare independence? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [June 24, 2014, 12:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-the-iraqi-kurds-declare-independence/691495 "2014-06-24T00:09:23Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 6
**Author:** ![NotfooledbyW](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/f475e1/32.png) [@NotfooledbyW](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NotfooledbyW)\ **Post date:** [July 2, 2014, 11:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-the-iraqi-kurds-declare-independence/691495/101 "2014-07-02T11:21:16Z")
> [@tagos](#): > > [Horses’ mouth](http://time.com/2945035/iraqi-kurds-to-vote-on-independence/?utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=feed&utm_campaign=Feed:%20time/topstories%20(TIME:%20Top%20Stories)) > > Iraq is done. Perhaps. But in the present it is not. The Kurds are still participating in the government of Iraq as if it matters. That you cannot deny. ---
**Author:** ![NotfooledbyW](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/f475e1/32.png) [@NotfooledbyW](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NotfooledbyW)\ **Post date:** [July 2, 2014, 11:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-the-iraqi-kurds-declare-independence/691495/102 "2014-07-02T11:22:59Z")
> [@tagos](#): > > No. It contradicts your ‘reality’. Not the same thing. The reality that Kurds are aligned with Sunnis in Baghdad to form a salvation unity government without Maliki, is not my reality. It is reality unless you can prove that they aren’t. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [July 2, 2014, 2:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-the-iraqi-kurds-declare-independence/691495/103 "2014-07-02T14:05:04Z")
> [@tagos](#): > > [Horses’ mouth](http://time.com/2945035/iraqi-kurds-to-vote-on-independence/?utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=feed&utm_campaign=Feed:%20time/topstories%20(TIME:%20Top%20Stories)) > > Iraq is done. Well, no, Iraq minus Kurdistan remains Iraq. Iraq minus the Sunnis, OTOH, probably not. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [July 2, 2014, 2:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-the-iraqi-kurds-declare-independence/691495/104 "2014-07-02T14:06:55Z")
> [@tagos](#): > > It was the seizure of Kirkuk, not its ‘defence’. As you well know. Well, I’m sure practically all the people of the city would rather be ruled by the KRG than by the ISIS. ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [July 2, 2014, 2:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-the-iraqi-kurds-declare-independence/691495/105 "2014-07-02T14:12:57Z")
Where does the name “Iraq” come from, anyway? Does anyone know? ---
**Author:** ![Human\_Action](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/ac91a4/32.png) [@Human\_Action](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Human_Action)\ **Post date:** [July 2, 2014, 2:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-the-iraqi-kurds-declare-independence/691495/106 "2014-07-02T14:16:00Z")
> [@Alessan](#): > > Where does the name “Iraq” come from, anyway? Does anyone know? From [this source:](http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/Iraq?s=t) > [@](#): > > country name (1920) is from Arabic name attested since 6c. for the region known in Gk. as Mesopotamia; often said to be from Arabic `araqa, covering notions such as “perspiring, deeply rooted, well-watered,” which may reflect the impression the lush river-land made on desert Arabs. But the name may be from, or infl. by, Sumerian Uruk (Biblical Erech), the ancient prominent city in what is now southern Iraq (from Sumerian uru “city”). ---
**Author:** ![KarlGauss](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/karlgauss/32/3713_2.png) [@KarlGauss](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/KarlGauss)\ **Post date:** [July 2, 2014, 3:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-the-iraqi-kurds-declare-independence/691495/107 "2014-07-02T15:13:26Z")
Apologies if this has been asked earlier in the thread (I checked but may have missed it): Might Israel supply at least some of the Kurds military needs? Looks to me like a potential for a win-win (Kurds get Israeli support and Israel gets what may well turn out to be a sane and stable presence in the area). ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [July 2, 2014, 3:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-the-iraqi-kurds-declare-independence/691495/108 "2014-07-02T15:26:31Z")
> [@KarlGauss](#): > > Might Israel supply at least some of the Kurds military needs? Looks to me like a potential for a win-win (Kurds get Israeli support and Israel gets what may well turn out to be a sane and stable presence in the area). It’s been going on almost completely under the radar, but Israeli advisers have been operating in Kurdish territories for years. Mostly training and intelligence, but I’m sure they’ve provided some weapons, too. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [July 2, 2014, 10:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-the-iraqi-kurds-declare-independence/691495/109 "2014-07-02T22:43:18Z")
Just caught the very tail end of the piece, but PBS’s New Hour did an interview with, I think, the Kurdish Prime Minister, on this very subject. Maybe it wasn’t the PM, but someone representing the Kurdish government. And although I only caught the tail end, it was clear they are going to push for independence and hold a referendum. ---
**Author:** ![NotfooledbyW](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/f475e1/32.png) [@NotfooledbyW](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NotfooledbyW)\ **Post date:** [July 3, 2014, 5:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-the-iraqi-kurds-declare-independence/691495/110 "2014-07-03T05:09:24Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > Just caught the very tail end of the piece, but PBS’s New Hour did an interview with, I think, the Kurdish Prime Minister, on this very subject. Maybe it wasn’t the PM, but someone representing the Kurdish government. And although I only caught the tail end, it was clear they are going to push for independence and hold a referendum. Is keeping territorial integrity as conducive to world peace a longstanding principle that will not be in play here? There was much talk of the importance of that when Crimea chose to break away when the President of Ukraine was removed by violence and chaos in Kiev? Will the anti-changing of borders crowd decry this move? Just wondering? ---
**Author:** ![CarnalK](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnalk/32/486_2.png) [@CarnalK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CarnalK)\ **Post date:** [July 3, 2014, 5:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-the-iraqi-kurds-declare-independence/691495/111 "2014-07-03T05:42:41Z")
> [@NotfooledbyW](#): > > Is keeping territorial integrity as conducive to world peace a longstanding principle that will not be in play here? There was much talk of the importance of that when Crimea chose to break away when the President of Ukraine was removed by violence and chaos in Kiev? Will the anti-changing of borders crowd decry this move? > > Just wondering? Others could well wonder about your own opinion. After all, eastern Ukrainians have a heck of a lot less claim to independence compared to the Kurds. You seem embrace the former but act oblivious to the latter. ---
**Author:** ![NotfooledbyW](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/f475e1/32.png) [@NotfooledbyW](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NotfooledbyW)\ **Post date:** [July 3, 2014, 6:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-the-iraqi-kurds-declare-independence/691495/112 "2014-07-03T06:27:42Z")
> [@CarnalK](#): > > Others could well wonder about your own opinion. After all, eastern Ukrainians have a heck of a lot less claim to independence compared to the Kurds. You seem embrace the former but act oblivious to the latter. I’ve not embraced either of those two. The Kurds have not separated from the Central Government as of this point. I won’t embrace what has not happened. But I have no issue with it if they can do it peacefully and by the sheer reality that the givernment won’t be able to militarily try to force the Kurds back to status quo. But I see the development of a weak federal Iraq with threes elf governing and self defending states as a real possibilty; In part because of this kind of news: > [@](#): > > Even Al-Rafidayn TV, which has a Sunni fundamentalist editorial line, reported that the Iraqi army had expelled ISIS from the governor’s offices and killed some 60 of them, including some ISIS commanders. It quoted Ahmad Abdullah al-Juburi, the governor of Salahuddin Province. It also underlined that the army was supported by “Popular Brigades” of irregulars, presumably Sunni tribesmen who prefer Baghdad to the extremists of ISIS (or who have been paid well to so choose). > **[Baghdad Strikes Back: Al-Maliki Launches Battle for Tikrit](https://www.juancole.com/2014/06/strikes-launches-battle.html)** > > By Juan Cole Iraqi PM Nouri al-Maliki is fighting for his political life as well as for the territorial integrity of Iraq. On Saturday he launched a large military operation in an attempt to take back control of Tikrit (the capital of Salahuddin... And no I dont agree with everything Juan Cole has to say politicslly but he translates news reports pretty well. ---
**Author:** ![CarnalK](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnalk/32/486_2.png) [@CarnalK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CarnalK)\ **Post date:** [July 3, 2014, 6:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-the-iraqi-kurds-declare-independence/691495/113 "2014-07-03T06:43:47Z")
> [@NotfooledbyW](#): > > [Baghdad Strikes Back: Al-Maliki Launches Battle for Tikrit](http://www.juancole.com/2014/06/strikes-launches-battle.html) > And no I dont agree with everything Juan Cole has to say politicslly but he translates news reports pretty well. Kinda weird that a guy writing an English article would have all his reference links to Arabic articles. ---
**Author:** ![voltaire](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voltaire/32/313_2.png) [@voltaire](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/voltaire)\ **Post date:** [July 3, 2014, 8:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-the-iraqi-kurds-declare-independence/691495/114 "2014-07-03T08:27:25Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > Just caught the very tail end of the piece, but PBS’s New Hour did an interview with, I think, the Kurdish Prime Minister, on this very subject. Maybe it wasn’t the PM, but someone representing the Kurdish government. And although I only caught the tail end, it was clear they are going to push for independence and hold a referendum. If anything you were \*understating \*the Kurdish Foreign Minister’s strongly worded comments. [This was his opening response to the first question:](http://www.pbs.org/newshour/bb/kurds-dont-want-fix-baghdad-expense-says-kurdish-foreign-chief/) > [@](#): > > **Q:** Are we simply seeing the collapse of the Iraqi state? > **FALAH MUSTAFA BAKIR:** Iraq as a state didn’t exist that much. > Iraq is an artificial state. And what’s built here on wrong foundations will not be able to survive. We as Kurds have suffered a lot. And we pay the price of keeping the balance between Shias and Sunnis in Iraq. Time has come in order to correct that historical mistake. > And we’re not ready to pay more prices for the instability of that area. The Iraqi army collapsed because it was built or rebuilt on wrong foundations. It wasn’t an army in order to protect the country and the people of the country against external threats. > It was used against the Kurds when we had political differences with Baghdad. Therefore, we lost hope in the new Iraq. This wasn’t the Iraq that we have contributed so positively, and this wasn’t the Iraq that Americans have sacrificed their lives for. > **\** > \*\*MARGARET WARNER: \*\*Is there anything at this point that could keep Kurdistan within Iraq? > **FALAH MUSTAFA BAKIR:** Well, there is no hope for us. We don’t want to stay with an Iraq that has failed. We are not ready to repeat a failed experience. > Baghdad doesn’t accept us. Baghdad doesn’t want us as partners. Baghdad doesn’t want to share the power and wealth. And it’s enough for us. At this point, I think it would be wise for Baghdad’s government to let the Kurds have _whatever they want, even if they want complete independence._ But Iraq _can_ _only hope_ they’ll accept something just short of that. Baghdad/Iraq being where it is (in the middle of it!), they need dependable allies other than Iran and Assad, or else they’re just going to become the western Afghanistan, where everybody in the region comes to fight their wars instead of trashing their own territory. And that result would suit just about all of them just fine, including Iran and Assad. The moderate Sunnis, Shiites and Kurds in Iraq would all be so much better off if they could figure out a way where they all get just enough to hold it together. The odds are against them, but there’s really no way a broken up Iraq is going to end well for any of them… this century, at least. ---
**Author:** ![voltaire](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voltaire/32/313_2.png) [@voltaire](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/voltaire)\ **Post date:** [July 3, 2014, 8:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-the-iraqi-kurds-declare-independence/691495/115 "2014-07-03T08:32:44Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > Just caught the very tail end of the piece, but PBS’s New Hour did an interview with, I think, the Kurdish Prime Minister, on this very subject. Maybe it wasn’t the PM, but someone representing the Kurdish government. And although I only caught the tail end, it was clear they are going to push for independence and hold a referendum. If anything you were \*understating \*the Kurdish Foreign Minister’s strongly worded comments. [This was his opening response to the first question:](http://www.pbs.org/newshour/bb/kurds-dont-want-fix-baghdad-expense-says-kurdish-foreign-chief/) > [@](#): > > **Q:** Are we simply seeing the collapse of the Iraqi state? > **FALAH MUSTAFA BAKIR:** Iraq as a state didn’t exist that much. > Iraq is an artificial state. And what’s built here on wrong foundations will not be able to survive. We as Kurds have suffered a lot. And we pay the price of keeping the balance between Shias and Sunnis in Iraq. Time has come in order to correct that historical mistake. > And we’re not ready to pay more prices for the instability of that area. The Iraqi army collapsed because it was built or rebuilt on wrong foundations. It wasn’t an army in order to protect the country and the people of the country against external threats. > It was used against the Kurds when we had political differences with Baghdad. Therefore, we lost hope in the new Iraq. This wasn’t the Iraq that we have contributed so positively, and this wasn’t the Iraq that Americans have sacrificed their lives for. > **\** > \*\*MARGARET WARNER: \*\*Is there anything at this point that could keep Kurdistan within Iraq? > **FALAH MUSTAFA BAKIR:** Well, there is no hope for us. We don’t want to stay with an Iraq that has failed. We are not ready to repeat a failed experience. > Baghdad doesn’t accept us. Baghdad doesn’t want us as partners. Baghdad doesn’t want to share the power and wealth. And it’s enough for us. At this point, I think it would be wise for Baghdad’s government to let the Kurds have _whatever they want, even if they want complete independence._ But Iraq _can_ _only hope_ they’ll accept something just short of that. Baghdad/Iraq being where it is (in the middle of it!), they need dependable allies other than Iran and Assad, or else they’re just going to become the western Afghanistan, where everybody in the region comes to fight their wars instead of trashing their own territory. And that result would suit just about all of them just fine, including Iran and Assad. The moderate Sunnis, Shiites and Kurds in Iraq would all be so much better off if they could figure out a way where they all get just enough to hold it together. The odds are probably against them getting it done, but there’s really no way a broken up Iraq is going to end well for any of them… this century, at least. ---
**Author:** ![NotfooledbyW](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/f475e1/32.png) [@NotfooledbyW](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NotfooledbyW)\ **Post date:** [July 3, 2014, 9:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-the-iraqi-kurds-declare-independence/691495/116 "2014-07-03T09:32:26Z")
> [@CarnalK](#): > > Kinda weird that a guy writing an English article would have all his reference links to Arabic articles. Not really. He is a professior at the University of Michigan who bases his commentary on untranslated news and commentary in the Arabic and Persian world. If he screws up there are many foes to some of his views that wouid point it out. ---
**Author:** ![CarnalK](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnalk/32/486_2.png) [@CarnalK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CarnalK)\ **Post date:** [July 3, 2014, 4:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-the-iraqi-kurds-declare-independence/691495/117 "2014-07-03T16:21:26Z")
> [@NotfooledbyW](#): > > Not really. He is a professior at the University of Michigan who bases his commentary on untranslated news and commentary in the Arabic and Persian world. If he screws up there are many foes to some of his views that wouid point it out. OK. But I don’t really see what about his article makes you think a weak-federalist state is likely. Your quote was of one fairly minor military victory. Meanwhile the Kurds are saying loud and clear “Iraq has failed”. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [July 3, 2014, 10:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-the-iraqi-kurds-declare-independence/691495/118 "2014-07-03T22:09:10Z")
> [@CarnalK](#): > > OK. But I don’t really see what about his article makes you think a weak-federalist state is likely. Your quote was of one fairly minor military victory. Meanwhile the Kurds are saying loud and clear “Iraq has failed”. The point is that the Sunnis prefer Baghdad to ISIL. Of course, the thing some people seem to forget is that once Baghdad helps the Sunnis get rid of ISIL, they no longer need to make that choice. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2014, 1:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-the-iraqi-kurds-declare-independence/691495/119 "2014-07-11T13:48:10Z")
[The Kurds have seized two more oil fields in northern Irag.](http://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-28265064) [And, quit the Iraqi government.](http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/jul/11/kurds-withdraw-support-iraqi-government-without-president) Meanwhile, [ISIS is mounting a new offensive against the Kurds in Syria.](http://english.alarabiya.net/en/News/2014/07/10/ISIS-intensifies-offensive-against-Kurds-in-Syria-.html) ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2014, 8:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-the-iraqi-kurds-declare-independence/691495/120 "2014-07-20T20:37:06Z")
Hmmm . . . [Maliki is accusing the Kurds of supporting ISIS.](http://english.alarabiya.net/en/News/middle-east/2014/07/09/Iraq-s-Maliki-accuses-Kurds-of-hosting-ISIS.html) > [@](#): > > Prime Minister Nuri al-Maliki on Wednesday accused the northern autonomous Kurdish region of hosting jihadists spearheading an offensive that has overrun swathes of territory and sparked Iraq’s worst crisis in years. > > “Honestly, we cannot be silent over this and we cannot be silent over Arbil being a headquarters for ISIS, and Baath, and al-Qaeda and terrorist operations,” Maliki said in his weekly televised address. > > “We cannot be silent over a movement that exploited the circumstances and expanded,” added Maliki, infuriated by a Kurdish announcement last week that plans were being sped up to hold a referendum on self-determination. [Another interpretation:](http://english.alarabiya.net/en/perspective/2014/07/20/Is-Iraq-s-Kurdish-region-outside-of-ISIS-calculus-.html) > [@](#): > > “The loose alliance of insurgents is united by only one common objective: a desire to take Baghdad and topple Maliki’s regime, which they consider to be an Iranian proxy,” Ali Khedery, who was the longest continuously serving American official in Iraq from 2003 to 2009, told Al Arabiya News. > > “They haven’t attacked Kurdistan because they don’t want to open a second front while they battle,” Khedery, who is now chairman and chief executive of the Dubai-based Dragoman Partners, added. > > “I believe Maliki accused the Kurds of helping ISIS because he considers the entire Sunni Arab insurgency to be composed of ISIS. In reality, the forces fighting Maliki’s government are 5 to 10% ISIS, 20% Baathist elements, and 70-75% Sunni Arab tribal elements.” [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-the-iraqi-kurds-declare-independence/691495.md?page=5) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-the-iraqi-kurds-declare-independence/691495.md?page=7)