# Will the latest Bundy clan actions bedevil the GOP candidates? **URL:** \ **Category:** Politics & Elections\ **Created:** [January 4, 2016, 1:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-the-latest-bundy-clan-actions-bedevil-the-gop-candidates/742116 "2016-01-04T01:09:23Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![DWMarch](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dwmarch/32/1010_2.png) [@DWMarch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DWMarch)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2016, 7:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-the-latest-bundy-clan-actions-bedevil-the-gop-candidates/742116/41 "2016-01-06T07:01:21Z")
> [@drad\_dog](#): > > I have some real questions: > > For the board: Are they letting people in to give them food etc.? WHY?! Are they not turning the water and power off because they are afraid of a waco? They never seem to say what’s actually happening. I would not be at all surprised if there is an FBI agent in there posing as one of the yokels and learning much more than if shock and awe tactics were used. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2016, 12:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-the-latest-bundy-clan-actions-bedevil-the-gop-candidates/742116/42 "2016-01-06T12:19:53Z")
Maybe not yet, but as patriots from all over the country begin pouring in, fer sure some of them are going to be plants. Any minute now. Well, pretty soon. Pouring in. ---
**Author:** ![Diceman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/22d042/32.png) [@Diceman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diceman)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2016, 1:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-the-latest-bundy-clan-actions-bedevil-the-gop-candidates/742116/43 "2016-01-06T13:11:14Z")
> [@adaher](#): > > This is more of a problem for the Democrats, actually, because it could end badly. Right now it’s a Republican issue because some dumb conservatives have done something characteristically dumb and Republican candidates will have to answer questions about it. But once the administration decides on a course of action, THAT becomes the issue. Especially if it doesn’t end peacefully. If it ends with the Feds shooting someone, then it will _really_ become a problem for Democrats, who’ll find themselves dealing with comparisons to Ruby Ridge and the Branch Davidian siege. Plus, this could easily evolve into an “Occupy Federal Land” movement. If that happens, the Obama Administration will need to stock up on asprin, because the next several months (at least) will be one continuous headache. ---
**Author:** ![Peremensoe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ce7236/32.png) [@Peremensoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Peremensoe)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2016, 1:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-the-latest-bundy-clan-actions-bedevil-the-gop-candidates/742116/44 "2016-01-06T13:17:00Z")
> [@adaher](#): > > They have not threatened violence. All they’ve “threatened” to do is defend themselves if attacked. If federal law enforcement personnel inform them that they are under arrest, will that count as an “attack”? ---
**Author:** ![lance\_strongarm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/87869e/32.png) [@lance\_strongarm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lance_strongarm)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2016, 2:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-the-latest-bundy-clan-actions-bedevil-the-gop-candidates/742116/45 "2016-01-06T14:56:06Z")
> [@adaher](#): > > You have to pass laws for that to happen. What they are guilty of is trespassing. That’s neither a cause for violent law enforcement response, or to take away their guns. Legally, this is basically a sit-in. So you go to remove them or arrest them for trespassing. If they resist, then they are met with the appropriate force. Same as with anything else. A violent response would be justified. ---
**Author:** ![lance\_strongarm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/87869e/32.png) [@lance\_strongarm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lance_strongarm)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2016, 2:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-the-latest-bundy-clan-actions-bedevil-the-gop-candidates/742116/46 "2016-01-06T14:57:50Z")
> [@Peremensoe](#): > > If federal law enforcement personnel inform them that they are under arrest, will that count as an “attack”? Of course, because federal officers have no jurisdiction over them because the Constitution says (insert inane rambling here). ---
**Author:** ![drad\_dog](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/aeb1de/32.png) [@drad\_dog](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/drad_dog)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2016, 5:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-the-latest-bundy-clan-actions-bedevil-the-gop-candidates/742116/47 "2016-01-06T17:05:49Z")
> [@adaher](#): > > They do have guns. I’m not sure if there’s a federal “armed trespass” law that applies. Perhaps a legal expert could help us out. That might make the crime worth prosecuting. If it’s regular trespass, probably not. They’ll be allowed to just leave when they get sick of occupying the place. > > They have not threatened violence. All they’ve “threatened” to do is defend themselves if attacked. Well I was watching as the guy “under the tarp” was interviewed. He was asked what the plan is, whether he was planning to die. His answer was that he was being peaceful (with a rifle on his lap) and that you should not hold a gun on someone. He said you should “only point a gun if you are going to use it.” By the same logic you could very easily say “You should not use a gun to enforce your illegal trespass unless you are going to use it” What are the guns for? They are a threat. The guns are not immaterial. Certainly they are not immaterial when such a double standard is being used. ---
**Author:** ![kaylasdad99](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kaylasdad99/32/3398_2.png) [@kaylasdad99](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kaylasdad99)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2016, 5:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-the-latest-bundy-clan-actions-bedevil-the-gop-candidates/742116/48 "2016-01-06T17:14:22Z")
> [@adaher](#): > > This is more of a problem for the Democrats, actually, because it could end badly. Right now it’s a Republican issue because some dumb conservatives have done something characteristically dumb and Republican candidates will have to answer questions about it. But once the administration decides on a course of action, THAT becomes the issue. > [@GIGObuster](#): > > That really does sound like Heads, the Republicans win, Tails the Democrats lose. > > :rolleyes: Yep. It doesn’t matter how the authorities manage this, or how it ends; for **adaher** and “his” side, it will be a bad outcome that’s Obama’s fault. ---
**Author:** ![kaylasdad99](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kaylasdad99/32/3398_2.png) [@kaylasdad99](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kaylasdad99)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2016, 5:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-the-latest-bundy-clan-actions-bedevil-the-gop-candidates/742116/49 "2016-01-06T17:24:56Z")
> [@adaher](#): > > They do have guns. I’m not sure if there’s a federal “armed trespass” law that applies. Perhaps a legal expert could help us out. That might make the crime worth prosecuting. If it’s regular trespass, probably not. They’ll be allowed to just leave when they get sick of occupying the place. > > They have not threatened violence. All they’ve “threatened” to do is defend themselves if attacked. And that leaves one to speculate what “attacked” entails. Arrest and removal? Any action taken in aid of those legitimate goals? ---
**Author:** ![adaher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@adaher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adaher)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2016, 5:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-the-latest-bundy-clan-actions-bedevil-the-gop-candidates/742116/50 "2016-01-06T17:42:02Z")
Force is justified legally. Force is also justified legally in many international situations. Doesn’t mean it always will be, or should be, used. Ousting them will cost the lives of federal law enforcement personnel. ---
**Author:** ![lance\_strongarm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/87869e/32.png) [@lance\_strongarm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lance_strongarm)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2016, 7:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-the-latest-bundy-clan-actions-bedevil-the-gop-candidates/742116/51 "2016-01-06T19:00:22Z")
> [@adaher](#): > > Ousting them will cost the lives of federal law enforcement personnel. It might, but you can’t say for sure. ---
**Author:** ![drad\_dog](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/aeb1de/32.png) [@drad\_dog](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/drad_dog)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2016, 7:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-the-latest-bundy-clan-actions-bedevil-the-gop-candidates/742116/52 "2016-01-06T19:04:16Z")
> [@adaher](#): > > Force is justified legally. Force is also justified legally in many international situations. Doesn’t mean it always will be, or should be, used. Ousting them will cost the lives of federal law enforcement personnel. Which means that they are murderous psychopaths, not just “gun owners” exercising a constitutional right. And not protesters or passive resisters either. If they were black it would be a no brainer that they must be eliminated. By drone if necessary. I still haven’t heard if they have access to supporters, food, water, power etc. ---
**Author:** ![adaher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@adaher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adaher)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2016, 7:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-the-latest-bundy-clan-actions-bedevil-the-gop-candidates/742116/53 "2016-01-06T19:07:50Z")
> [@lance\_strongarm](#): > > It might, but you can’t say for sure. They are armed and know how to use their weapons. Unless we’re willing to destroy the building, or they don’t have the stomach for an armed confrontation and are just talking big, there’s no way there won’t be law enforcement casualties. ---
**Author:** ![adaher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@adaher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adaher)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2016, 7:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-the-latest-bundy-clan-actions-bedevil-the-gop-candidates/742116/54 "2016-01-06T19:09:09Z")
> [@drad\_dog](#): > > Which means that they are murderous psychopaths, not just “gun owners” exercising a constitutional right. And not protesters or passive resisters either. > > . They are none of those things. and they aren’t murderous psychopaths because they don’t intend to kill anyone unless armed men with guns try to come and threaten them. They took no hostages, they aren’t planning an armed revolt. It’s an armed sit-in. ---
**Author:** ![Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/f04885/32.png) [@Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Qin_Shi_Huangdi)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2016, 7:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-the-latest-bundy-clan-actions-bedevil-the-gop-candidates/742116/55 "2016-01-06T19:17:16Z")
> [@adaher](#): > > They are none of those things. and they aren’t murderous psychopaths because they don’t intend to kill anyone unless armed men with guns try to come and threaten them. They took no hostages, they aren’t planning an armed revolt. > > It’s an armed sit-in. Would you be saying the same thing if armed union men were occupying the corporate offices of some Manhattan bank? ---
**Author:** ![adaher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@adaher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adaher)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2016, 7:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-the-latest-bundy-clan-actions-bedevil-the-gop-candidates/742116/56 "2016-01-06T19:23:36Z")
The major difference there is that it’s private property that people actually want access to. It would also be different if they occupied the Washington Monument or the Capital building. But if armed union men occupied an already closed plant in protest of said plant’s closing, that would be a similar situation and armed force would be unnecessary. Get into the heads of the people involved here. Occupy protesters and previous liberal movements occupied places that would actually be disruptive because they wanted a confrontation. And they weren’t armed, because they didn’t want deaths, they just wanted some heads smashed for the PR. The people occupying the Oregon federal building are taking a different approach. Occupy something totally unimportant, and arm themselves so that the cost of retaking the unimportant real estate creates an unacceptable cost for the government. It’s actually very smart and influenced by what happened with the guy’s dad. For all our lofty talk of rule of law, might still makes right in the world, and if you have might, the powers that be have to negotiate with you. Or in this case, if you have a little might, but what you’re willing to fight over is something the government isn’t interested in fighting over. ---
**Author:** ![lance\_strongarm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/87869e/32.png) [@lance\_strongarm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lance_strongarm)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2016, 7:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-the-latest-bundy-clan-actions-bedevil-the-gop-candidates/742116/57 "2016-01-06T19:28:14Z")
> [@adaher](#): > > They are armed and know how to use their weapons. Unless we’re willing to destroy the building, or they don’t have the stomach for an armed confrontation and are just talking big, there’s no way there won’t be law enforcement casualties. You’re way too confident in your opinion. ---
**Author:** ![lance\_strongarm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/87869e/32.png) [@lance\_strongarm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lance_strongarm)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2016, 7:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-the-latest-bundy-clan-actions-bedevil-the-gop-candidates/742116/58 "2016-01-06T19:29:56Z")
> [@adaher](#): > > Occupy protesters and previous liberal movements occupied places that would actually be disruptive because they wanted a confrontation. And they weren’t armed, because they didn’t want deaths, they just wanted some heads smashed for the PR. And your hypocrisy and arrogance are exposed. ---
**Author:** ![adaher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@adaher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adaher)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2016, 7:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-the-latest-bundy-clan-actions-bedevil-the-gop-candidates/742116/59 "2016-01-06T19:46:55Z")
The only thing hypocritical is wanting armed force to be used against our citizens but to negotiate with foreign enemies over blatant violations of international law and treaty obligations. ---
**Author:** ![lance\_strongarm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/87869e/32.png) [@lance\_strongarm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lance_strongarm)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2016, 7:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-the-latest-bundy-clan-actions-bedevil-the-gop-candidates/742116/60 "2016-01-06T19:56:48Z")
> [@adaher](#): > > The only thing hypocritical is wanting armed force to be used against our citizens but to negotiate with foreign enemies over blatant violations of international law and treaty obligations. No, I found your attribution of the best motives to right-wing occupiers but the worst motives to lefties to be hypocritical too. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-the-latest-bundy-clan-actions-bedevil-the-gop-candidates/742116.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-the-latest-bundy-clan-actions-bedevil-the-gop-candidates/742116.md?page=4)