# Will the map or flag of the USA ever change again? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [April 9, 2010, 1:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-the-map-or-flag-of-the-usa-ever-change-again/535478 "2010-04-09T01:11:18Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![guizot](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guizot/32/3636_2.png) [@guizot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/guizot)\ **Post date:** [April 9, 2010, 7:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-the-map-or-flag-of-the-usa-ever-change-again/535478/41 "2010-04-09T19:42:13Z")
> [@Cisco](#): > > I believe the political divide in California is more urban/rural, or inland/coastal, than it is north/south. That’s true. And while the inland areas are growing in population, the divide isn’t much different than in many other states. There’s a book about California splitting along north-south lines, but I can’t remember the name. I think the Senate will never allow another state into the Union, precisely because it would ruin the nice even arrangement of 50 stars on the flag, and the even more even number of 100 senators. It makes it easy to calculate percentages of support for any given bill. ---
**Author:** ![Tom\_Tildrum](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/e95f7d/32.png) [@Tom\_Tildrum](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tom_Tildrum)\ **Post date:** [April 9, 2010, 9:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-the-map-or-flag-of-the-usa-ever-change-again/535478/42 "2010-04-09T21:36:34Z")
[Here](http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:US_51_Star_possible_Flag.svg) and [here](http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:US_51-star_alternate_flag.svg) are two possible 51-star American flags. ---
**Author:** ![Sampiro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/2acd7d/32.png) [@Sampiro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sampiro)\ **Post date:** [April 9, 2010, 9:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-the-map-or-flag-of-the-usa-ever-change-again/535478/43 "2010-04-09T21:43:40Z")
> [@Tom\_Tildrum](#): > > [Here](http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:US_51_Star_possible_Flag.svg) and [here](http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:US_51-star_alternate_flag.svg) are two possible 51-star American flags. I much prefer the second one. ---
**Author:** ![aruvqan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aruvqan/32/2891_2.png) [@aruvqan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aruvqan)\ **Post date:** [April 9, 2010, 10:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-the-map-or-flag-of-the-usa-ever-change-again/535478/44 "2010-04-09T22:38:02Z")
> [@Oakminster](#): > > Bullshit. We’ll trade them all our hockey teams for beer. Lots of beer. And a \*Forever Knight \*Boxed Set, with a better finale that leaves room for a movie or three. But the end did leave an opening for more … you didnt see him fry onscreen =) ---
**Author:** ![kidneyfailure](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/9f8e36/32.png) [@kidneyfailure](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kidneyfailure)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2010, 12:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-the-map-or-flag-of-the-usa-ever-change-again/535478/45 "2010-04-10T00:48:12Z")
> [@Bryan\_Ekers](#): > > A ring of stars will be taken by some as proof positive the U.S. has submitted itself to European control, in light of that arrangement being prominent on the E.U. flag. Then it’ll be all militias and conspiracy theories and junk. I figured as much that that would probably happen. Someone would need to point out to all those moron extremists that one of the original US flags used the same motif. ---
**Author:** ![Markxxx](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/5daacb/32.png) [@Markxxx](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Markxxx)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2010, 4:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-the-map-or-flag-of-the-usa-ever-change-again/535478/46 "2010-04-10T04:19:37Z")
Historically the demand for statehood only happens when the local populace demands become too hard to ignore. In the case of Alaska and Hawaii, WWII showed that they were loyal parts of the USA and either had to be states or risk an independence movement. Remember how strong de-colonization was in the late 50s up till the mid 70s. I doubt you’ll ever see another state. It’s nearly impossible to get a new county in a state made. Or even a city breaking apart. Note how the Valley voted on whether or not to leave LA. So any new state would be made of people wanting to break away to form a “better life” for their citizens. This means leaving the old part of the state worse off. This is very un-PC, like saying poor people don’t count. DC wouldn’t require an amendment to the constitution necessarily, but that issue is dead in the water. DC peaked in populaton just over 800,000 and at the time was more populas than a lot of states. Now DC is only bigger than Wyoming, so it’s too small. Before you see DC as a state you’d see it retroceded to Maryland or an agreement worked out to allow Maryland to represent DC. As for natural divisions there are only a few left. For instance the Upper Peninsula of Michigan. Again the problem is population. Too few UP’ers it would be only a bit more than 308,000 people too few. The other divisions of states really would involve more than one state. For instance, East Washington and West Idaho, or Northern California and Southern Oregon. Once you have more than one state involved it’s poltically impossible to get anything done. So really no, the USA has stopped. There won’t be anymore states, anymore than you’ll see another state in Australia or another province in Canada, unless the territories in those countries gain population to put them on equal footing. (Yes I know the Northern Territory in Aussie was offered statehood, but the Australian feds wouldn’t give it an equal number of members in the Australian Senate thus verifying my theory on population) ---
**Author:** ![Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/f04885/32.png) [@Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Qin_Shi_Huangdi)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2010, 2:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-the-map-or-flag-of-the-usa-ever-change-again/535478/47 "2010-04-12T02:00:02Z")
> [@DanBlather](#): > > I think Cuba will eventually become a US state. That’s quite possible as once the Castro regime falls the island will drown in American investments and the powerful Cuban community in Florida. > [@Desert\_Nomad](#): > > I can see Cuba becoming part of the US and a few New England states (ME, NH, VT esp) joining Canada if the time frame is long enough (100 years +) Ain’t happening. > [@Bosda\_Di\_Chi\_of\_Tricor](#): > > The loss of portions of one or more border states at the southern border is possible. Nor this. > [@Cisco](#): > > I believe the political divide in California is more urban/rural, or inland/coastal, than it is north/south. Just off the top of my head, Butte County in northern CA leans conservative, while LA County in the south is pretty liberal. > > The strongest Republican county in CA is Modoc County, which is in the northernmost part of the state. Actually all the counties surrounding LA is conservative or at least centrist: Ventura, Kern, San Bernardino, Riverside, Orange, and San Diego. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2010, 2:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-the-map-or-flag-of-the-usa-ever-change-again/535478/48 "2010-04-12T02:15:04Z")
> [@DanBlather](#): > > I think Cuba will eventually become a US state. It won’t, for the same reason Puerto Rico will never become a state: It is not culturally or linguistically Anglo-American and it never will be. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2010, 2:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-the-map-or-flag-of-the-usa-ever-change-again/535478/49 "2010-04-12T02:20:02Z")
> [@Curtis LeMay](#): > > That’s quite possible as once the Castro regime falls the island will drown in American investments and the powerful Cuban community in Florida. Once Castro is gone the power of the Cuban community in Florida will also be gone. They’ll no longer be single-issue voters, and therefore no longer disproportionately influential. ---
**Author:** ![Cisco](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ccd318/32.png) [@Cisco](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cisco)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2010, 2:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-the-map-or-flag-of-the-usa-ever-change-again/535478/50 "2010-04-12T02:35:52Z")
> [@Curtis LeMay](#): > > Actually all the counties surrounding LA is conservative or at least centrist: Ventura, Kern, San Bernardino, Riverside, Orange, and San Diego. So? That doesn’t contradict anything I said. > [@BrainGlutton](#): > > It won’t, for the same reason Puerto Rico will never become a state: It is not culturally or linguistically Anglo-American and it never will be. Eh, neither was Arizona, until shortly before becoming a state (and still isn’t, in a lot of ways.) I agree that they will almost surely never become states, but not for that reason. Wild, rapid demographic shifts can and do happen. I think AK and HI will remain unique as non-contiguous states, though. ---
**Author:** ![Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/f04885/32.png) [@Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Qin_Shi_Huangdi)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2010, 2:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-the-map-or-flag-of-the-usa-ever-change-again/535478/51 "2010-04-12T02:52:21Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > It won’t, for the same reason Puerto Rico will never become a state: It is not culturally or linguistically Anglo-American and it never will be. Not if English is taught in Puerto Rico and Cuba followed by gradual cultural assimiliation after all Hawaii wasn’t particularly Anglo-American either originally. > [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > Once Castro is gone the power of the Cuban community in Florida will also be gone. They’ll no longer be single-issue voters, and therefore no longer disproportionately influential. They will be easily able to dominate the economy of Cuba and be responsible for much of the investment there. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2010, 2:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-the-map-or-flag-of-the-usa-ever-change-again/535478/52 "2010-04-12T02:57:41Z")
> [@Curtis LeMay](#): > > Not if English is taught in Puerto Rico and Cuba followed by gradual cultural assimiliation after all Hawaii wasn’t particularly Anglo-American either originally. You don’t get it. Most Puerto Ricans probably already know English, as a second language. But they speak Spanish at home, and in church, and in the marketplace; and they will be speaking Spanish at home, etc., a hundred years from now (unlike Latinos in most of the mainland U.S., who will eventually assimilate). Puerto Rico’s “hearth culture” is Spanish-Catholic. And so is Cuba’s (Communism notwithstanding). And neither will change in that regard, because they’re both too thickly populated for Anglo-American settlement/colonization to overwhelm the pre-existing culture the way it did everywhere else (even Alaska and Hawaii) in the historical expansion of the U.S. ---
**Author:** ![Napier](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/ce73a5/32.png) [@Napier](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Napier)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2010, 3:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-the-map-or-flag-of-the-usa-ever-change-again/535478/53 "2010-04-12T03:03:20Z")
> [@xtisme](#): > > I’d have to say that the map is unlikely to change in my lifetime (I’m, um, 50 something ;)) The probability of the map changing in your lifetime is already 100%, bucko. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2010, 3:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-the-map-or-flag-of-the-usa-ever-change-again/535478/54 "2010-04-12T03:05:58Z")
> [@Curtis LeMay](#): > > They will be easily able to dominate the economy of Cuba and be responsible for much of the investment there. There are only a few hundred thousand people in all of Florida who self-identify as Cuban. There are 12 million people _in_ Cuba. American investment will surely predominate in Cuba one day, but Cuban-American investment will not. ---
**Author:** ![Shagnasty](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9dc877/32.png) [@Shagnasty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shagnasty)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2010, 3:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-the-map-or-flag-of-the-usa-ever-change-again/535478/55 "2010-04-12T03:38:22Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > But beyond these examples, the states that are now Alabama, Illinois, Indiana, Michigan, Mississippi, Ohio, Tennessee, and Wisconsin are all formed out of area that were once part of other states. > > Trivia note: If the states had kept their original borders, Chicago would be in Connecticut. Part of eastern Louisiana wasn’t part of the Louisiana purchase oddly enough. What are still known as the Florida Parishes once belonged to Florida in the early 19th century. They were under Spanish control and part of Florida until they merged with the existing state of Louisiana in 1810. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2010, 3:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-the-map-or-flag-of-the-usa-ever-change-again/535478/56 "2010-04-12T03:43:33Z")
> [@Shagnasty](#): > > Part of eastern Louisiana wasn’t part of the Louisiana purchase oddly enough. What are still known as the Florida Parishes once belonged to Florida in the early 19th century. They were under Spanish control and part of Florida until they merged with the existing state of Louisiana in 1810. And there was a short-lived (for 90 days in 1810) independent republic of [West Florida.](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/West_Florida) ---
**Author:** ![Sitnam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/6a8cbe/32.png) [@Sitnam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sitnam)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2010, 3:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-the-map-or-flag-of-the-usa-ever-change-again/535478/57 "2010-04-12T03:47:55Z")
Puerto Rico just has to vote yes on a referendum and they become our 51st State. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2010, 4:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-the-map-or-flag-of-the-usa-ever-change-again/535478/58 "2010-04-12T04:50:28Z")
Congress has to ratify its admission, too. ---
**Author:** ![Tastes\_of\_Chocolate](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tastes_of_chocolate/32/3232_2.png) [@Tastes\_of\_Chocolate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tastes_of_Chocolate)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2010, 9:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-the-map-or-flag-of-the-usa-ever-change-again/535478/59 "2010-04-12T21:20:45Z")
> [@Markxxx](#): > > So really no, the USA has stopped. There won’t be anymore states, anymore than you’ll see another state in Australia or another province in Canada, unless the territories in those countries gain population to put them on equal footing. (Yes I know the Northern Territory in Aussie was offered statehood, but the Australian feds wouldn’t give it an equal number of members in the Australian Senate thus verifying my theory on population) Umm, didn’t Canada just create a new territory? Yep, [Nunavut](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nunavut). Created April 1, 1999. And with about 10% of the population of Michigan’s UP. ---
**Author:** ![Hypnagogic\_Jerk](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hypnagogic_jerk/32/4252_2.png) [@Hypnagogic\_Jerk](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hypnagogic_Jerk)\ **Post date:** [April 13, 2010, 1:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-the-map-or-flag-of-the-usa-ever-change-again/535478/60 "2010-04-13T01:48:26Z")
But the three Canadian territories are extremely unlikely to become provinces in the foreseeable future. It’s quite unlikely that Canada will be adding a province. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-the-map-or-flag-of-the-usa-ever-change-again/535478.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-the-map-or-flag-of-the-usa-ever-change-again/535478.md?page=4)