# Will The Marvels flop? \[Open spoilers after post 112-ish\] **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Tags:** movies\ **Created:** [November 8, 2023, 4:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-the-marvels-flop-open-spoilers-after-post-112-ish/992837 "2023-11-08T16:54:07Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![Loach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/loach/32/350_2.png) [@Loach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Loach)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2023, 2:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-the-marvels-flop-open-spoilers-after-post-112-ish/992837/81 "2023-11-13T14:45:36Z")
> [@Gyrate](#): > > The trailer really did not do this film justice. Usually superhero trailers include all the exciting action stuff and clever lines; based on the trailer I thought this was going to be entirely based around the wacky hijinks ensuing from the place-swapping thing but my god, the writing in this was so freaking good. I laughed **a lot**. Larson and Parris finally got some decent material (Vellani kicked ass as usual). It didn’t wear out its welcome. > > Definitely one of the best post-Endgame films that didn’t involve Spider-Man. I mentioned the trailer problem above. The first trailers made it seem like a wacky romp. The final trailer that came out made it seem like an ultra serious action movie. That came out like a week ago. If someone was put off from watching teenage girl hijinx from the first trailer they have interest in even watching the final trailer. ---
**Author:** ![B.Serum](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/b.serum/32/14266_2.png) [@B.Serum](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/B.Serum)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2023, 3:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-the-marvels-flop-open-spoilers-after-post-112-ish/992837/82 "2023-11-13T15:32:24Z")
> [@msmith537](#): > > I think the difference is you don’t typically need to watch three other horror movies and several TV miniseries to follow the story of the next film or know how each episode fits in with the larger fictional universe. I hear this complaint a lot and I think it’s an easy scapegoat to point to when storytelling fundamentals aren’t being met rather than something that stands up to scrutiny. With the exception of _Infinity War / Endgame_, all these movies\* stand alone as complete statements (of wildly varying quality) unto themselves. They may certainly reference events that happen elsewhere, but no more so than all the untold backstory that audiences were teased with in 1977 when they first saw _Star Wars_ (before the assorted prequels, from _Phantom_ to _Rogue One_ were produced). Instead, we’re reacting to a type of “fear of missing out.” Just _knowing_ that there is a reference to other shows and that they _can_ be viewed, generates a feeling of “I’m supposed to watch that too.” But you don’t. These references are bonus extra treats for those who did. And the producers of these movies certainly _want_ you to devour everything. But it’s not necessary to experience in any single movie. All that is required is to ignore the FOMO. — - I agree, however, that several of the Disney+ shows that were created to continue stories begun in the movies _do_ require the viewing of said movies. ---
**Author:** ![digs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/digs/32/14889_2.png) [@digs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/digs)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2023, 4:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-the-marvels-flop-open-spoilers-after-post-112-ish/992837/83 "2023-11-13T16:09:35Z")
> [@Pleonast](#): > > Was going to wait for Disney+ to watch it… It’s the only movie I’ve seen in a theater in months, but I loved Ms. Marvel, so I went by myself… …and saw it on an “UltraScreen” in 3D! ---
**Author:** ![msmith537](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/d9b06d/32.png) [@msmith537](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/msmith537)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2023, 4:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-the-marvels-flop-open-spoilers-after-post-112-ish/992837/84 "2023-11-13T16:58:35Z")
> [@B.Serum](#): > > > [@msmith537](#): > > > > I think the difference is you don’t typically need to watch three other horror movies and several TV miniseries to follow the story of the next film or know how each episode fits in with the larger fictional universe. > > I hear this complaint a lot and I think it’s an easy scapegoat to point to when storytelling fundamentals aren’t being met rather than something that stands up to scrutiny. > > With the exception of _Infinity War / Endgame_, all these movies\* stand alone as complete statements (of wildly varying quality) unto themselves. They may certainly reference events that happen elsewhere, but no more so than all the untold backstory that audiences were teased with in 1977 when they first saw _Star Wars_ (before the assorted prequels, from _Phantom_ to _Rogue One_ were produced). > > Instead, we’re reacting to a type of “fear of missing out.” Just _knowing_ that there is a reference to other shows and that they _can_ be viewed, generates a feeling of “I’m supposed to watch that too.” > > But you don’t. > > These references are bonus extra treats for those who did. And the producers of these movies certainly _want_ you to devour everything. But it’s not necessary to experience in any single movie. All that is required is to ignore the FOMO. > > — > > - I agree, however, that several of the Disney+ shows that were created to continue stories begun in the movies _do_ require the viewing of said movies. I think there’s a balance between telling a long continuous complex story (like Star Wars), and having dozens of mostly standalone films taking place in the same fictional universe. i guess for me I just don’t find Carol Danvers / Captain Marvel to be that interesting a character. As I said, she doesn’t seem to have any weakness or challenge to overcome when compared to other “indestructibles”. ie. Banner dealing with his rage issues and Thor dealing with first his immaturity then later the loss of his family and home world. All I know about Captain Marvel is she tends to show up at the last minute and punch a spaceship in half. ---
**Author:** ![veryfrank](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/87869e/32.png) [@veryfrank](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/veryfrank)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2023, 5:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-the-marvels-flop-open-spoilers-after-post-112-ish/992837/85 "2023-11-13T17:15:27Z")
I went opening night, and saw _The Marvels_ in an 80% empty theatre, and absolutely loved it. Of the 33 MCU features, it’s up in my top five or six. The chemistry between the three leads was fantastic, and Iman Vellani (maybe I’m biased, because she’s a local girl done good) is just brilliant in every scene and every line delivery. I’m hoping _Ms. Marvel_ season 2 happens, because I want another eight hours with the Khans (bit sad that Aamir’s wife didn’t make an appearance, as the wedding scene was one of the many high points of the show). It’s depressing beyond belief how badly the movie is tanking…yeah, there’s superhero fatigue, but the SAG strike also put a massive dent in the amount of publicity the actors could do. Haven’t read every post above, but if it’s been said already, I’ll chime in with being very worried that this’ll be another “See, women, especially women of color, can’t carry a movie!” rallying cry for the jackasses who recoil at the very thought of diversity onscreen. ---
**Author:** ![B.Serum](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/b.serum/32/14266_2.png) [@B.Serum](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/B.Serum)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2023, 5:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-the-marvels-flop-open-spoilers-after-post-112-ish/992837/86 "2023-11-13T17:20:46Z")
> I guess for me I just don’t find Carol Danvers / Captain Marvel to be that interesting a character … As I said, she doesn’t seem to have any weakness or challenge to overcome when compared to other “indestructibles”. ie. Banner dealing with his rage issues and Thor dealing with first his immaturity then later the loss of his family and home world. That’s fair. We like and dislike what we like and dislike and we don’t owe anyone any justification for our preferences. To the “weakness / challenge” aspect, _for me_, the character’s first movie was all about coping with authority figures who convince you you’re not good enough and the importance of pushing through that _(man, I’m welling up just putting these thoughts down)_, and of course speaking directly to the gender issues in which this kind of dynamic is really pervasive. But that’s just me — there no way every piece of art is going to resonate with every person the same way. ---
**Author:** ![Cheesesteak](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cheesesteak/32/3694_2.png) [@Cheesesteak](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cheesesteak)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2023, 5:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-the-marvels-flop-open-spoilers-after-post-112-ish/992837/87 "2023-11-13T17:36:41Z")
> [@msmith537](#): > > As I said, she doesn’t seem to have any weakness or challenge to overcome This entire movie is about how she tried to fix things via: > [@msmith537](#): > > punch a spaceship in half. and how it all went so terribly wrong. ---
**Author:** ![msmith537](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/d9b06d/32.png) [@msmith537](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/msmith537)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2023, 5:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-the-marvels-flop-open-spoilers-after-post-112-ish/992837/88 "2023-11-13T17:37:16Z")
> [@Terminus\_Est](#): > > > [@Gyrate](#): > > > > Vellani kicked ass as usual > > Ms. Vellani almost carried the whole movie all by her lonesome. And the way they set up the pre-credits tag: Kamala mirroring word-for-word to Kate what Fury said to Stark in the post-credits for _Iron Man_. Young Avengers, anyone? It seems like they have been slowing introducing a potential pool of “Young Avengers” to draw from. Kamala Khan / Ms Marvel Kate Bishop / Hawkeye 2.0 America Chavez / Miss America Cassie Lang / Ant-Girl Riri Williams / Ironheart Kid Loki (from Loki Season 1) Eli Bradley / Patriot (from Falcon and the Winter Snowman) William Maximoff / Wiccan (some version of Wanda’s kids) Thomas Maximoff / Speed) Maybe White Vision as their adult handler I don’t see anything on the MCU radar so maybe that will be introduced during or after Secret Wars in 2027 (at which point Hailee Steinfeld will be 30. So only really considered “young” compared to Steve Rogers or Thor). They should make another MCU superhero group called “The Randoms”: - Jennifer Walters / She Hulk - Shang Chi - Marc Spector / Moon Knight - Eros / Starfox - Dane Whitman / Black Knight - Hercules You know, people who had like one season shows or appeared in mid credits scenes and never heard from again or otherwise just don’t “fit” in the big MCU picture. ---
**Author:** ![msmith537](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/d9b06d/32.png) [@msmith537](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/msmith537)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2023, 5:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-the-marvels-flop-open-spoilers-after-post-112-ish/992837/89 "2023-11-13T17:49:24Z")
> [@Cheesesteak](#): > > > [@msmith537](#): > > > > As I said, she doesn’t seem to have any weakness or challenge to overcome > > This entire movie is about how she tried to fix things via: > > > [@msmith537](#): > > > > punch a spaceship in half. > > and how it all went so terribly wrong. That sounds like it might be interesting. I’m sure I’m going to watch it eventually on Disney+. ---
**Author:** ![Saint\_Cad](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/saint_cad/32/18907_2.png) [@Saint\_Cad](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Saint_Cad)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2023, 5:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-the-marvels-flop-open-spoilers-after-post-112-ish/992837/90 "2023-11-13T17:53:56Z")
> [@Hampshire](#): > > Didn’t Eternals and Quantumania flop also? Eternals had nothing to do with the MCU except for Marvel saying it did. Quantumania was a weird one. It seemed like a separate movie that someone at Marvel said, “We can tie that into AntMan using canon that has never been established before.” > [@Hampshire](#): > > Maybe it’s just me but I think a lot of people are getting super hero fatigue Not when it came to GotG3 and Loki2. ---
**Author:** ![msmith537](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/d9b06d/32.png) [@msmith537](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/msmith537)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2023, 6:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-the-marvels-flop-open-spoilers-after-post-112-ish/992837/91 "2023-11-13T18:09:07Z")
Yeah, I think that’s the big mistake filmmakers are making. People are willing to watch good superhero stories. They aren’t just going to run out and see every film with a cool CGI battle. ---
**Author:** ![Pleonast](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pleonast/32/1183_2.png) [@Pleonast](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pleonast)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2023, 6:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-the-marvels-flop-open-spoilers-after-post-112-ish/992837/92 "2023-11-13T18:17:48Z")
> [@msmith537](#): > > Yeah, I think that’s the big mistake filmmakers are making. People are willing to watch good superhero stories. They aren’t just going to run out and see every film with a cool CGI battle.   Agreed. Personally, I’ve soured on Warner Bros DC superheroes. I just don’t feel anything for their stories and characters. Before _The Marvels_ started, the theater showed the preview for the next Aquaman movie. There was nothing there that inclined me to see that movie. My son was more interested in seeing the next Willy Wonka movie. ---
**Author:** ![asterion](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/4da419/32.png) [@asterion](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/asterion)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2023, 6:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-the-marvels-flop-open-spoilers-after-post-112-ish/992837/93 "2023-11-13T18:18:58Z")
I’d argue that even the CGI battles aren’t interesting anymore. The last one I remember feeling novel was the fight in Cassie’s room in Ant-Man, because when you got right down to it the stakes were small, just like the fighters. ---
**Author:** ![DSeid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dseid/32/20194_2.png) [@DSeid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSeid)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2023, 6:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-the-marvels-flop-open-spoilers-after-post-112-ish/992837/94 "2023-11-13T18:40:45Z")
Maybe it will get enough positive buzz that it will get legs over Thanksgiving? The good reviews here have me going to try to my wife to see it with me next weekend… ---
**Author:** ![nightshadea](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/7ba0ec/32.png) [@nightshadea](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/nightshadea)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2023, 6:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-the-marvels-flop-open-spoilers-after-post-112-ish/992837/95 "2023-11-13T18:59:03Z")
it says something when a movie can make 50-100 million and be called a flop… ---
**Author:** ![DigitalC](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ebca7d/32.png) [@DigitalC](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DigitalC)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2023, 7:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-the-marvels-flop-open-spoilers-after-post-112-ish/992837/96 "2023-11-13T19:13:53Z")
> [@msmith537](#): > > Kamala Khan / Ms Marvel > Kate Bishop / Hawkeye 2.0 > America Chavez / Miss America > Cassie Lang / Ant-Girl > Riri Williams / Ironheart > Kid Loki (from Loki Season 1) > Eli Bradley / Patriot (from Falcon and the Winter Snowman) > William Maximoff / Wiccan (some version of Wanda’s kids) > Thomas Maximoff / Speed) > Maybe White Vision as their adult handler You forgot Hulk’s son. And I doubt we get Wanda’s kids, after all the trouble she went and ended up dying for to just have them show up afterward would be weird. ---
**Author:** ![Jophiel](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jophiel/32/66_2.png) [@Jophiel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jophiel)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2023, 7:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-the-marvels-flop-open-spoilers-after-post-112-ish/992837/97 "2023-11-13T19:31:11Z")
> [@B.Serum](#): > > Instead, we’re reacting to a type of “fear of missing out.” Just _knowing_ that there is a reference to other shows and that they _can_ be viewed, generates a feeling of “I’m supposed to watch that too.” Nah. More like I only watch a limited number of movies so, any movie that comes out, I’m probably already not going to watch. If I hear that I need to do pre-watching before a movie, the chance of me watching it goes probably to zero. It’s not a fear of missing some Easter Eggs or chance to nod knowingly; it’s me not wanting to risk my movie-watching hours on something that people are telling me I won’t really “get” unless I watched something else first. It’s not as though I’m going to miss out on a mind-blowing or emotion-rattling event by skipping some superhero flick so the risk/reward isn’t really there for me. But I’m not independently saying “Oh no, I can’t watch X with Y”, it’s other people/articles – ones that actually give a serious shit about the MCU – telling me this. Are people doing these films a disservice by suggesting that you need A to watch B? Maybe but Disney seems to be on board with it by linking everything together in a deluge of shows/films. ---
**Author:** ![Gyrate](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gyrate/32/3588_2.png) [@Gyrate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gyrate)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2023, 7:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-the-marvels-flop-open-spoilers-after-post-112-ish/992837/98 "2023-11-13T19:53:36Z")
> [@Pleonast](#): > > Before _The Marvels_ started, the theater showed the preview for the next Aquaman movie. There was nothing there that inclined me to see that movie. Same. It was a big, loud special effect extravaganza, but basically the plot appears to be “I am king. That guy wants to be king so he is trying to kill me. I will stop him.” Fun as Jason Momoa is, I found the first film tedious and this looks to be much the same. > [@asterion](#): > > I’d argue that even the CGI battles aren’t interesting anymore. The last one I remember feeling novel was the fight in Cassie’s room in Ant-Man, because when you got right down to it the stakes were small, just like the fighters. The one in the Khan’s living room was fun, I thought. ---
**Author:** ![msmith537](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/d9b06d/32.png) [@msmith537](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/msmith537)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2023, 8:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-the-marvels-flop-open-spoilers-after-post-112-ish/992837/99 "2023-11-13T20:54:27Z")
> [@DigitalC](#): > > > [@msmith537](#): > > > > Kamala Khan / Ms Marvel > > Kate Bishop / Hawkeye 2.0 > > America Chavez / Miss America > > Cassie Lang / Ant-Girl > > Riri Williams / Ironheart > > Kid Loki (from Loki Season 1) > > Eli Bradley / Patriot (from Falcon and the Winter Snowman) > > William Maximoff / Wiccan (some version of Wanda’s kids) > > Thomas Maximoff / Speed) > > Maybe White Vision as their adult handler > > You forgot Hulk’s son. And I doubt we get Wanda’s kids, after all the trouble she went and ended up dying for to just have them show up afterward would be weird. Yep, you’re right. I forgot Skaar’s brief cameo in She-Hulk. We have four years of “multiverse” stuff coming up, so I wouldn’t rule out anything with respect to Wanda and her children. Sounds like just the sort of redemption story arc the MCU is known for. ---
**Author:** ![Pleonast](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pleonast/32/1183_2.png) [@Pleonast](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pleonast)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2023, 9:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-the-marvels-flop-open-spoilers-after-post-112-ish/992837/100 "2023-11-13T21:12:15Z")
Really, at this point, the should be using the characters that they can write good stories for. And worry about in-universe explanations later. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-the-marvels-flop-open-spoilers-after-post-112-ish/992837.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-the-marvels-flop-open-spoilers-after-post-112-ish/992837.md?page=6)