# Will The Republicans ever figure out why they lost? **URL:** \ **Category:** Politics & Elections\ **Created:** [December 26, 2012, 9:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-the-republicans-ever-figure-out-why-they-lost/645224 "2012-12-26T21:33:49Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 101
**Author:** ![adaher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@adaher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adaher)\ **Post date:** [August 6, 2013, 2:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-the-republicans-ever-figure-out-why-they-lost/645224/2001 "2013-08-06T02:29:41Z")
> [@Gyrate](#): > > T:Or - the point supported by actual numbers - that the Congressional districts are disproportionately gerrymandered in favor of the Republicans. Except that they enjoyed a natural majority before the 2010 gerrymandering. According to the cite I posted earlier, they gained about 10 seats from the 2010 gerrymandering. > [@](#): > > Depends on who gets to define “fair”, doesn’t it? That’s what gerrymandering exists. But in today’s climate, even an unfair gerrymandering can’t help Democrats much. There’s just no way to draw districts that don’t encompass huge numbers of Democrats in concentrated areas. What do you suggest, making half of one district Harlem and then draw a squiggly line all the way to Utica? ---
**Author:** ![adaher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@adaher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adaher)\ **Post date:** [August 6, 2013, 2:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-the-republicans-ever-figure-out-why-they-lost/645224/2002 "2013-08-06T02:37:45Z")
Democrats need to demonstrate appeal beyond the dysfunctional cities they govern, and they need a political strategy other than cramming more and more people into those dysfunctional cities. ---
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [August 6, 2013, 2:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-the-republicans-ever-figure-out-why-they-lost/645224/2003 "2013-08-06T02:38:13Z")
> [@adaher](#): > > What do you suggest, making half of one district Harlem and then draw a squiggly line all the way to Utica? Yes. If that’s what it takes to break the Republican majority. As the GOP has demonstrated, achieving political goals by any means necessary is justified, because we are right. We would be damn fools not to. ---
**Author:** ![adaher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@adaher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adaher)\ **Post date:** [August 6, 2013, 3:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-the-republicans-ever-figure-out-why-they-lost/645224/2004 "2013-08-06T03:13:56Z")
And that’s what Democrats do, when they can. It’s not our fault that Democrats picked the worst possible election year to lay down and die. ---
**Author:** ![Try2B\_Comprehensive](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/try2b_comprehensive/32/65_2.png) [@Try2B\_Comprehensive](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Try2B_Comprehensive)\ **Post date:** [August 6, 2013, 3:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-the-republicans-ever-figure-out-why-they-lost/645224/2005 "2013-08-06T03:29:39Z")
> [@adaher](#): > > False. The tradeoff has been demonstrated. We can import better green technologies today, but we choose not to. Carbon emissions are higher than they otherwise would be because the jobs are considered a higher priority. [But we are importing Chinese panels.](http://www.greentechmedia.com/articles/read/SolarCity-IPO-Scheduled-for-2012-Holiday-Season-Reuters) > [@](#): > > Cheaper solar panels means lower costs for SolarCity and presumably for its customers. As per the firm’s S-1, Trina, Yingli, and Kyocera are the primary module suppliers for SolarCity. That is an American company installing Chinese panels in the USA. And it isn’t even a controversy. And those panels aren’t better, they are actually worse, but they are cheaper. The issue wasn’t primarily about jobs, but about [nefarious Chinese business practices](http://www.greentechmedia.com/articles/read/case-casm): > [@](#): > > Chinese manufacturers, with the enthusiastic support of the Chinese government, have attempted to game the international trading system in order to gain a virtual monopoly on solar cells and modules sales in the U.S. market. We have seen the results of this campaign in the marketplace, with more than a dozen companies either shutting down manufacturing facilities or significantly cutting back production and employment in the United States and a Chinese industry, led by LDK Solar and Suntech, having to increasingly turn to its national and provincial governments for help to survive. So, the Chinese government engages in activity not in accordance with your free-market philosophy, but your anti-American government position is stronger, so that you criticize our government for taking steps to protect American industry from _actual Communists_ rather than admit that government can take positive action on behalf of the people as well as for the sake of jobs and business. Would you rather our government did nothing and allowed the Chinese to drive companies in every industry out of business? ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [August 6, 2013, 4:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-the-republicans-ever-figure-out-why-they-lost/645224/2006 "2013-08-06T04:58:21Z")
Yep, that is why I made the point of adaher using a very very ridiculous definition of “not allowing us to get” the Chinese panels. Oh well, I did warn him about gaining even more fame as one that always misses the point and the argument. ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [August 6, 2013, 12:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-the-republicans-ever-figure-out-why-they-lost/645224/2007 "2013-08-06T12:58:18Z")
I am no longer trying to grasp **adaher** ’s position on solar power, since he can’t even state it coherently _himself_, other than to claim that any problem is somehow automatically the Democrats’ fault and will somehow work against them electorally. But that’s his position on just about everything, so it isn’t surprising. ---
**Author:** ![adaher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@adaher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adaher)\ **Post date:** [August 6, 2013, 7:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-the-republicans-ever-figure-out-why-they-lost/645224/2008 "2013-08-06T19:00:39Z")
My position on solar power is that as it becomes more viable, private investors will put money into it. There is no need for federal support, and certainly no need for protectionism. ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [August 6, 2013, 7:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-the-republicans-ever-figure-out-why-they-lost/645224/2009 "2013-08-06T19:12:00Z")
So how do you convince private investors to put money into an industry that is dominated by dumping by another government that has no reason to stop it? Meanwhile, the jobs and income are being produced there, not here, and in an industry with no need or accessibility for private investment anyway. To repeat, your position is incoherent. It’s simple reflexive, thoughtless Democrat-bashing. But, if that’s the position you guys want to take, then you have to accept the electoral consequences - yet again. ---
**Author:** ![adaher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@adaher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adaher)\ **Post date:** [August 6, 2013, 7:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-the-republicans-ever-figure-out-why-they-lost/645224/2010 "2013-08-06T19:18:06Z")
Hardly. I just want a coherent policy. Is the goal to reduce emissions, or to protect American jobs, and yes, there is a conflict. Dumping means cheap solar panels. That’s a good thing, right? ---
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [August 6, 2013, 7:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-the-republicans-ever-figure-out-why-they-lost/645224/2011 "2013-08-06T19:25:09Z")
> [@adaher](#): > > My position on solar power is that as it becomes more viable, private investors will put money into it. So, who is going to put money into it before it becomes viable? Or do emerging technologies in Conservatopia spring from the heads of entrepreneurs, fully formed and profitable? ---
**Author:** ![adaher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@adaher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adaher)\ **Post date:** [August 6, 2013, 7:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-the-republicans-ever-figure-out-why-they-lost/645224/2012 "2013-08-06T19:29:46Z")
YOu act as if businesses don’t exist unless government thinks to subsidize them first. Solar power is a technological fact. The problem is to make it efficient and cost effective, something the government has never been able to do with a product. And subsidizing it does not encourage businesses to make them efficient or cost effective, anymore than it has that effect in the education or health care industries. It does the opposite, actually, it encourages waste. That’s why the private sector is finding new ways to use energy, while some of Obama’s cronies just suck up taxpayer dollars without producing viable products that can stand on their own. ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [August 6, 2013, 7:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-the-republicans-ever-figure-out-why-they-lost/645224/2013 "2013-08-06T19:58:28Z")
> [@adaher](#): > > Is the goal to reduce emissions, or to protect American jobs, and yes, there is a conflict. If you really do see a conflict, it’s about time you explained it. :dubious: And do try your best to do so coherently. We won’t even ask you to refrain from simple, reality-disconnected Democrat-bashing, since you haven’t shown signs of being able not to, okay? > [@](#): > > Dumping means cheap solar panels. That’s a good thing, right? To those indifferent to the jobs aspect, maybe. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [August 6, 2013, 8:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-the-republicans-ever-figure-out-why-they-lost/645224/2014 "2013-08-06T20:23:24Z")
> [@adaher](#): > > Democrats need to demonstrate appeal beyond the dysfunctional cities they govern, and they need a political strategy other than cramming more and more people into those dysfunctional cities. I have done a bit of reading in American history, sociology, that sort of thing. To date, your explanation for the increasing population in urban centers is, ah, unique. Are the Democrats also responsible for the increasing urbanization in, say, China? If so, might you not be wise to consider submitting gracefully to such awesome power? How so they go about it, send roving trucks through the rural countryside and ambush country folk and drag them away? Since rural folks tend to Republican, do they experience a drastic reconfiguration when they cross the city limits? Have you submitted a scholarly paper on the Adaher Effect? Such a brilliant insight might earn you accolades and wild approval from the academic community. Of course, it might also gain you nothing more than scorn and derision but remember! they laughed at Lemuel T. Crampton too! As well they might, the man was nuts. ---
**Author:** ![Bridget\_Burke](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7cd45c/32.png) [@Bridget\_Burke](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bridget_Burke)\ **Post date:** [August 6, 2013, 8:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-the-republicans-ever-figure-out-why-they-lost/645224/2015 "2013-08-06T20:26:10Z")
> [@ElvisL1ves](#): > > So how do you convince private investors to put money into an industry that is dominated by dumping by another government that has no reason to stop it? Meanwhile, the jobs and income are being produced there, not here, and in an industry with no need or accessibility for private investment anyway. > > To repeat, your position is incoherent. It’s simple reflexive, thoughtless Democrat-bashing. But, if that’s the position you guys want to take, then you have to accept the electoral consequences - yet again. Yup. The answer to the question at the top of the thread: **No!** ---
**Author:** ![adaher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@adaher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adaher)\ **Post date:** [August 6, 2013, 9:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-the-republicans-ever-figure-out-why-they-lost/645224/2016 "2013-08-06T21:39:24Z")
> [@ElvisL1ves](#): > > If you really do see a conflict, it’s about time you explained it. :dubious: And do try your best to do so coherently. We won’t even ask you to refrain from simple, reality-disconnected Democrat-bashing, since you haven’t shown signs of being able not to, okay? > . This isn’t complicated. If the Chinese sell solar panels that are cheap enough to be viable for the public, rather than just a vanity thing for rich liberals, then we can get more widespread use of solar panels and reduce greenhouse emissions. But instead, we’re protecting American jobs, so solar panels remain a vanity purchase for Al Gore types. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [August 6, 2013, 9:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-the-republicans-ever-figure-out-why-they-lost/645224/2017 "2013-08-06T21:54:37Z")
But the Chinese are producing quite good solar panels at an attractive price. Was that the result of the thriving entrepreneurial spirit of the Chinese Communist Party? I mean, its a given that central planning and government intervention in business is a certain path to ruin. So, what the fuck? ---
**Author:** ![Robot\_Arm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/robot_arm/32/18280_2.png) [@Robot\_Arm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Robot_Arm)\ **Post date:** [August 6, 2013, 9:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-the-republicans-ever-figure-out-why-they-lost/645224/2018 "2013-08-06T21:55:07Z")
> [@adaher](#): > > But instead, we’re protecting American jobs, so solar panels remain a vanity purchase for Al Gore types. And vanity purchases for early adopters never come down in price and become commonplace, except for everything. ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [August 6, 2013, 11:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-the-republicans-ever-figure-out-why-they-lost/645224/2019 "2013-08-06T23:10:18Z")
> [@adaher](#): > > the Chinese sell solar panels that are cheap enough to be viable for the public You do realize they’re losing money in the short run, don’t you? That they’re selling panels below cost just to drive others out of the business? That it’s working? You do get all that, don’t you? > [@](#): > > a vanity thing for rich liberals If you think weaning ourselves from oil is about vanity, then there’s no getting through to you. > [@](#): > > But instead, we’re protecting American jobs No, actually, we aren’t, are we? Either way it would be Obama’s fault, though. > [@](#): > > Al Gore types. What’s an “Al Gore type”? ---
**Author:** ![adaher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@adaher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adaher)\ **Post date:** [August 6, 2013, 11:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-the-republicans-ever-figure-out-why-they-lost/645224/2020 "2013-08-06T23:31:25Z")
> [@Robot\_Arm](#): > > And vanity purchases for early adopters never come down in price and become commonplace, except for everything. I’m sure solar panels will come down in price and become commonplace. I just don’t think government subsidies are going to bring that day any closer. Government doesn’t do cheaper and more efficient, and companies receiving subsidies have no incentive to make the products private viable. There’s an entire green industry right now based on making money in the short term strictly through subsidies without actually selling much. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-the-republicans-ever-figure-out-why-they-lost/645224.md?page=100) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-the-republicans-ever-figure-out-why-they-lost/645224.md?page=102)