# Will The Republicans ever figure out why they lost? **URL:** \ **Category:** Politics & Elections\ **Created:** [December 26, 2012, 9:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-the-republicans-ever-figure-out-why-they-lost/645224 "2012-12-26T21:33:49Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 102
**Author:** ![adaher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@adaher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adaher)\ **Post date:** [August 6, 2013, 11:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-the-republicans-ever-figure-out-why-they-lost/645224/2021 "2013-08-06T23:32:55Z")
> [@ElvisL1ves](#): > > If you think weaning ourselves from oil is about vanity, then there’s no getting through to you. The vanity is in paying more for your energy to “make a difference”, while us normal folks are enjoying the natural gas boom which is actually reducing emissions substantially. If the government was competent in picking winners, it would have placed a big bet on natural gas. ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [August 6, 2013, 11:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-the-republicans-ever-figure-out-why-they-lost/645224/2022 "2013-08-06T23:46:33Z")
You do realize that natural gas creates emissions, including CO2, don’t you? That it’s a greenhouse gas _itself_, when it’s just vented, as is pretty common, don’t you? That it’s a fossil fuel just like oil, and will eventually be exhausted? That it does nothing to reduce consumption of oil, most of which is used in vehicle fuel? What, \*none \*of that? Never mind. Let’s just work on comprehending predatory pricing strategies, for now. A basic tool of capitalism that China, Inc. is using expertly in the PV panel industry, to our detriment in every way. ---
**Author:** ![adaher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@adaher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adaher)\ **Post date:** [August 7, 2013, 12:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-the-republicans-ever-figure-out-why-they-lost/645224/2023 "2013-08-07T00:54:07Z")
1. It emits less CO2 than oil or coal. 2. It will eventually be exhausted, like oil, but we’ve got new techniques for getting at huge reserves. 3. It does reduce oil consumption, but it reduces coal consumption even more, and coal is a bigger greenhouse gas. 4. It is viable, right now. I guess you’d prefer we just continue to rely on coal until your magical green energy can be used to power a country? ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [August 7, 2013, 1:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-the-republicans-ever-figure-out-why-they-lost/645224/2024 "2013-08-07T01:19:20Z")
> [@adaher](#): > > 1. It emits less CO2 than oil or coal. > > 2. It will eventually be exhausted, like oil, but we’ve got new techniques for getting at huge reserves. > > 3. It does reduce oil consumption, but it reduces coal consumption even more, and coal is a bigger greenhouse gas. > > 4. It is viable, right now. I guess you’d prefer we just continue to rely on coal until your magical green energy can be used to power a country? And once again, thank you for showing all that you are better than the Tea party leaders. But we all know that you will pass their denier pamphlets once election time comes. ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [August 7, 2013, 1:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-the-republicans-ever-figure-out-why-they-lost/645224/2025 "2013-08-07T01:24:42Z")
> [@adaher](#): > > But instead, we’re protecting American jobs, so solar panels remain a vanity purchase for Al Gore types. > [@ElvisL1ves](#): > > What’s an “Al Gore type”? Using the Al Gore card is common among climate change deniers, I wonder if adaher minds that it makes those guys look like fools for using it. > **[Is Al Gore's An Inconvenient Truth accurate?](https://skepticalscience.com/al-gore-inconvenient-truth-errors.htm)** > > \While there are minor errors in An Inconvenient Truth, the main truths presented - evidence to show mankind is causing global warming and its various impacts is consistent with peer reviewed science.\ > [@](#): > > Note: the vilification of Al Gore is best understood in the context of personalisation. When opponents attack something abstract - like science - the public may not associate with the argument. By giving a name and a face and a set of behavioural characteristics - being a rich politician, for example - it is easy to create a fictional enemy through inference and association. Al Gore is a successful politician who presented a film, his training and experience suitable to the task. To invoke Gore is a way to obfuscate about climate science, for which Gore has neither responsibility, claim nor blame. Once again, virtually all Tea Partiers are from the same cookie cutter of “Climate Change is a hoax”, as pointed before adaher does not seem to mind that he is working to make sure that the blind continue to be elected. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [August 7, 2013, 1:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-the-republicans-ever-figure-out-why-they-lost/645224/2026 "2013-08-07T01:43:33Z")
> [@ElvisL1ves](#): > > What’s an “Al Gore type”? See [Gore’s Law](http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Gore%27s_Law): “As an online climate change debate grows longer, the probability that denier arguments will descend into attacks on Al Gore approaches one.” ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [August 7, 2013, 1:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-the-republicans-ever-figure-out-why-they-lost/645224/2027 "2013-08-07T01:59:52Z")
> [@adaher](#): > > your magical green energy can be used to power a country There’s nothing magical about it, although I do understand that your party loyalty requires you to denigrate anything contrary to Big Oil’s interests. Roughly a third to a half of all electric power in Europe, which has taken the problem seriously, is \*already \*from renewable sources, for instance. _Already_. The tech is proven, so is the economics, the problem is the obstructionist politics of The Entrenched Interests. ---
**Author:** ![Try2B\_Comprehensive](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/try2b_comprehensive/32/65_2.png) [@Try2B\_Comprehensive](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Try2B_Comprehensive)\ **Post date:** [August 7, 2013, 2:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-the-republicans-ever-figure-out-why-they-lost/645224/2028 "2013-08-07T02:50:14Z")
> [@adaher](#): > > If the Chinese sell solar panels that are cheap enough to be viable for the public, rather than just a vanity thing for rich liberals, then we can get more widespread use of solar panels and reduce greenhouse emissions. Actually we do not have to do anything, see [grid parity](http://http://cleantechnica.com/2013/05/26/solar-grid-parity-in-102-countries-map/) We certainly do not have to let China cheat us though. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [August 7, 2013, 2:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-the-republicans-ever-figure-out-why-they-lost/645224/2029 "2013-08-07T02:54:54Z")
> [@ElvisL1ves](#): > > Roughly a third to a half of all electric power in Europe, which has taken the problem seriously, is \*already \*from renewable sources, for instance. _Already_. Of course, a great deal of that is . . . nuclear! :eek: ---
**Author:** ![adaher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@adaher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adaher)\ **Post date:** [August 7, 2013, 4:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-the-republicans-ever-figure-out-why-they-lost/645224/2030 "2013-08-07T04:13:02Z")
> [@ElvisL1ves](#): > > There’s nothing magical about it, although I do understand that your party loyalty requires you to denigrate anything contrary to Big Oil’s interests. Roughly a third to a half of all electric power in Europe, which has taken the problem seriously, is \*already \*from renewable sources, for instance. _Already_. The tech is proven, so is the economics, the problem is the obstructionist politics of The Entrenched Interests. And Europeans pay much higher energy bills, and face the threat of there not being enough power to boot. > **[Germany facing power blackouts](https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/germany/9609777/Germany-facing-power-blackouts.html)** > > Germany could be struck by power blackouts this winter as the country struggles with a shift to renewable energy the economy minister has warned. > **[Germany nuclear shutdown by 2022 may mean blackouts, Merkel warned](https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2011/may/23/germany-nuclear-shutdown-winter-blackouts)** > > As chancellor mulls Germany's nuclear future, energy firms say solar and wind power may not make up shortfall in winter ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [August 7, 2013, 4:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-the-republicans-ever-figure-out-why-they-lost/645224/2031 "2013-08-07T04:39:53Z")
> [@adaher](#): > > And Europeans pay much higher energy bills, and face the threat of there not being enough power to boot. > > [http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/germany/9609777/Germany-facing-power-blackouts.html](http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/germany/9609777/Germany-facing-power-blackouts.html) > > [Germany nuclear shutdown by 2022 may mean blackouts, Merkel warned | Nuclear power | The Guardian](http://www.theguardian.com/environment/2011/may/23/germany-nuclear-shutdown-winter-blackouts) Actually the problem is an aging grid, specially from former communist countries and it is over production (wind(!) in this case in the following cite) what is creating more risks of a blackout. [http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2012-10-25/windmills-overload-east-europe-s-grid-risking-blackout-energy.html](http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2012-10-25/windmills-overload-east-europe-s-grid-risking-blackout-energy.html) And still the worst blackouts are reported to be from 2006, of course they used the “May” or “if” but cover qualifications. BTW, I do think that just like Japan, Germany and others will eventually reconsider the idea of facing off nuclear power. Incidentally solar power does remove a big threat from blackouts as the grid becomes less dependent on few sources during peak hours, and the USA has a more viable environment to increase the use of solar power compared to Europe. > **[Myths And Facts About Solar Energy](https://www.mediamatters.org/sean-hannity/myths-and-facts-about-solar-energy)** > > Conservative media have denigrated solar energy by denying its sustainability, ignoring its successes, and arguing the U.S. should simply cede the solar market to China. Yet this booming industry has made great strides, and with the right policies... In essence, the point made before is still valid, there is a need to add the real costs to our use of fossil fuels. Once the real costs are added then other options will be deployed faster as it will become clear that the costs will be less than continuing to depend mostly on fossil fuels, by delaying adding the real costs to our use of fossil fuels the Tea Partiers are only playing dice with our future. ---
**Author:** ![Bridget\_Burke](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7cd45c/32.png) [@Bridget\_Burke](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bridget_Burke)\ **Post date:** [August 7, 2013, 4:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-the-republicans-ever-figure-out-why-they-lost/645224/2032 "2013-08-07T04:43:22Z")
Once again, adaher goes off on a tangent, trying to distract us from the theme of the thread: The Republicans have nothing to offer… ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [August 7, 2013, 5:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-the-republicans-ever-figure-out-why-they-lost/645224/2033 "2013-08-07T05:06:39Z")
Even Mittens is telling the extremists to stop running into windmills. 🙂 [http://www.azcentral.com/news/politics/free/20130806mitt-romney-warns-against-government-shutdown.html](http://www.azcentral.com/news/politics/free/20130806mitt-romney-warns-against-government-shutdown.html) > [@](#): > > Romney, 66, warned congressional Republicans against letting emotions drive their decisions. > > “I badly want Obamacare to go away, and stripping it of funds has appeal. But we need to exercise great care about any talk of shutting down government,” Romney said in the first speech of its kind since his November election loss to Obama. “What would come next when soldiers aren’t paid, when seniors fear for their Medicare and Social Security, and when the FBI is off duty?” > > He continued: “I’m afraid that in the final analysis, Obamacare would get its funding, our party would suffer in the next elections, and the people of the nation would not be happy. I think there are better ways to remove Obamacare.” > > Romney did not criticize anyone by name, but he dismissed the very strategy employed by some of his party’s biggest names — potential 2016 presidential candidates among them. Sens. Marco Rubio of Florida, Ted Cruz of Texas and Mike Lee of Utah are urging Republicans to swear off voting for any year-end spending bill that includes money for the president’s health care law. Parts of the federal government would shut down on Oct. 1 if Congress doesn’t approve a short-term funding bill before then. As I also pointed before in an election thread, one reason why Florida did in the end voted for Obama was thanks to the ACA as a lot of minorities do not have access to affordable health care. Going forward, the fact that many will see benefits in the states that are implementing the changes will also be an important factor in future elections because Hispanics in states like Texas will wonder aloud why in other states they are getting a better deal. > **[Univision Obamacare Deal Could Put WellPoint, Blues Ahead Of Competitors -...](https://kffhealthnews.org/news/univision-obamacare-deal-could-help-insurers-ahead/)** > > The partnerships with the Spanish-language media giant are among the most concrete ways to date that insurers have invested in the marketing of Obamacare, but they also could skirt a key principle of the Affordable Care Act: that it should foster... No wonder Mittens is worried, but as it was seen, even he has not much interest in finding out why they lost, here is a hint Mittens: The Republicans in power spit on moderates like you. ---
**Author:** ![adaher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@adaher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adaher)\ **Post date:** [August 7, 2013, 9:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-the-republicans-ever-figure-out-why-they-lost/645224/2034 "2013-08-07T09:53:30Z")
Ross Douthat had an interesting argument, backed up with cites, about how racial polarization of the electorate isn’t something that Democrats are innocent of. He argues that in the Obama years, Democrats have sought to appeal to minorities in ways that alienate working class white voters: > [@](#): > > You could argue that these are all just necessary pivots given the racial dynamics of the Obama era. But racial bias alone can’t explain why the president went from losing non-college-educated white voters by only 18 points in 2008 to being 40 points underwater with that same demographic today. The issue matrix matters as well, and over the last five years, this administration and this Democratic Party have consistently tried to mobilize new coalition elements in ways that have very predictably tended to alienate downscale whites. > > And that strategy has worked! Energizing “ascendant” constituencies while pushing working-class whites toward the Republicans has represented a form of “positive polarization” for the Democrats, since it’s left them with a presidential-level majority that they did not enjoy before. But like any successful gambit, it’s also created vulnerabilities. The Democrats may not longer need that many working class white votes to win, but they probably can’t actually afford to lose them in a 70-30 split. And in the normal course of political events, it would be entirely reasonable for the opposition party to look at a president’s collapsing ratings with a demographic his party has mostly written off, and focus on that group as a target of opportunity in the next few election cycles. [http://douthat.blogs.nytimes.com/2013/08/06/republicans-white-voters-and-racial-polarization/?\_r=0](http://douthat.blogs.nytimes.com/2013/08/06/republicans-white-voters-and-racial-polarization/?_r=0) On the other hand, he agrees with most of you guys that the GOP needs to become more moderate on economic issues. I think the opposite: I think it’s social conservatives who need to be listened to less. ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [August 7, 2013, 10:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-the-republicans-ever-figure-out-why-they-lost/645224/2035 "2013-08-07T10:34:39Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > Of course, a great deal of that is . . . nuclear! :eek: That’s _not_ counting nuclear as renewable. [Check this out](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Renewable_energy_in_the_European_Union). In fact, Germany is well on the way to eliminating what nuclear they do have as a matter of national policy. Which is, of course, somehow the Democrats’ fault and will cost them in the next election. Or maybe the one after, or the one after that, but _someday_. Hmm, wonder what Douthat, with his record of accuracy rivaling **adaher** ’s, meant by “pushing working-class whites toward the Republicans” - does that mean “no longer catering to fear of social progress”? ---
**Author:** ![adaher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@adaher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adaher)\ **Post date:** [August 7, 2013, 10:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-the-republicans-ever-figure-out-why-they-lost/645224/2036 "2013-08-07T10:41:54Z")
Freer immigration is not really social progress, given that it pushes down working class people’s wages. It also makes a generous welfare state impossible, which comes from Paul Krugman’s mouth. The Democrats’ stance on immigration is pure politics, it has nothing to do with social progress. Same goes for environmentalism, higher energy bills for consumers and rolling blackouts is the opposite of progress, it’s actually Luddism. ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [August 7, 2013, 11:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-the-republicans-ever-figure-out-why-they-lost/645224/2037 "2013-08-07T11:18:38Z")
The Republican attitude on immigration reform isn’t really based on _economics_, now is it? 😃 C’mon, look us straight in the eye now … And are you seriously claiming the Democrats are somehow \*for \*rolling blackouts? Dude, you need your own show on Comedy Central, right after Colbert. This is great stuff! 😃 ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [August 7, 2013, 4:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-the-republicans-ever-figure-out-why-they-lost/645224/2038 "2013-08-07T16:11:02Z")
> [@adaher](#): > > The Democrats’ stance on immigration is pure politics, it has nothing to do with social progress. All my nieces and nephews that are straight A students and are finishing college will become the taxpayers that will fund your medicare and social security, you are welcome. > [@adaher](#): > > Same goes for environmentalism, higher energy bills for consumers and rolling blackouts is the opposite of progress, it’s actually Luddism. And you are welcome to post nonsense like that one, as shown before, the propaganda from the right ignores that a good reason for the problems are coming from old systems and excess energy production from renewals, that is, problems that are bound to be solved soon thanks to the current price they are paying. Oh, you mean you could not deduce that when there is a lot of improvements to be done that would be a reason prices would increase today but be lower tomorrow once all those improvements are done and the real price of using fossil fuels is taken into account? All those things that are missed on purpose by the pamphlets coming from the Tea Party are coming from the real Luddites, with a good pinch of demagoguery. ---
**Author:** ![wonky](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wonky/32/393_2.png) [@wonky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wonky)\ **Post date:** [August 7, 2013, 4:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-the-republicans-ever-figure-out-why-they-lost/645224/2039 "2013-08-07T16:17:56Z")
> [@Bridget\_Burke](#): > > Once again, adaher goes off on a tangent, trying to distract us from the theme of the thread: The Republicans have nothing to offer… I think he personifies the theme of the thread. ---
**Author:** ![adaher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@adaher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adaher)\ **Post date:** [August 7, 2013, 4:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-the-republicans-ever-figure-out-why-they-lost/645224/2040 "2013-08-07T16:35:44Z")
> [@ElvisL1ves](#): > > The Republican attitude on immigration reform isn’t really based on _economics_, now is it? 😃 C’mon, look us straight in the eye now … > > And are you seriously claiming the Democrats are somehow \*for \*rolling blackouts? Dude, you need your own show on Comedy Central, right after Colbert. This is great stuff! 😃 That’s why the left fails when they do. They believe that the only thing that matters is intentions. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-the-republicans-ever-figure-out-why-they-lost/645224.md?page=101) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-the-republicans-ever-figure-out-why-they-lost/645224.md?page=103)