# Will The Republicans ever figure out why they lost? **URL:** \ **Category:** Politics & Elections\ **Created:** [December 26, 2012, 9:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-the-republicans-ever-figure-out-why-they-lost/645224 "2012-12-26T21:33:49Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 105
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [August 9, 2013, 3:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-the-republicans-ever-figure-out-why-they-lost/645224/2081 "2013-08-09T03:24:12Z")
> [@adaher](#): > > I predicted no such thing. Incentives don’t cause businesses or individuals to change things en masse, it happens at the margins, which has noticeable effects on the economy. A sizeable minority of small business owners are going to stay under 50 employees. [shrug] So there will be **more** small businesses, since the market has space for them. So what? The last thing America needs is more chains/franchises. ---
**Author:** ![running\_coach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/running_coach/32/15836_2.png) [@running\_coach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/running_coach)\ **Post date:** [August 9, 2013, 3:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-the-republicans-ever-figure-out-why-they-lost/645224/2082 "2013-08-09T03:28:33Z")
> [@adaher](#): > > You left something out: expansion. If you own two pizza places, you won’t open a third if it puts you over 50 employees. So you would forego the added profit from a 3rd(or even 4th) location just to avoid paying for health care? I’ll bet your employees will be _ever so much more_ loyal when that gets found out. ---
**Author:** ![Gyrate](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gyrate/32/3588_2.png) [@Gyrate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gyrate)\ **Post date:** [August 9, 2013, 9:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-the-republicans-ever-figure-out-why-they-lost/645224/2083 "2013-08-09T09:19:12Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > [shrug] So there will be **more** small businesses, since the market has space for them. So what? The last thing America needs is more chains/franchises. Right. If you would have opened a third pizza place, that suggests that there was a market for it. So if you don’t open that place in that location, someone else will open one (or something similar) there. Money on the table and all that. Only in the “job creator” mythos do people open businesses and create jobs just because they have a little extra cash lying around. ---
**Author:** ![adaher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@adaher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adaher)\ **Post date:** [August 9, 2013, 10:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-the-republicans-ever-figure-out-why-they-lost/645224/2084 "2013-08-09T10:03:57Z")
> [@runner pat](#): > > So you would forego the added profit from a 3rd(or even 4th) location just to avoid paying for health care? > I’ll bet your employees will be _ever so much more_ loyal when that gets found out. That’s the thing, you won’t make a profit if your margins are small and the addition of that third unit means now you have to pay for health care. What you guys aren’t getting is that you can’t just slap burden after burden on business and then hand wave it away as if it doesn’t matter, or worse, callously suggest that they shouldn’t have been in business anyway. ---
**Author:** ![running\_coach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/running_coach/32/15836_2.png) [@running\_coach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/running_coach)\ **Post date:** [August 9, 2013, 11:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-the-republicans-ever-figure-out-why-they-lost/645224/2085 "2013-08-09T11:32:42Z")
> [@adaher](#): > > That’s the thing, you won’t make a profit if your margins are small and the addition of that third unit means now you have to pay for health care. > > What you guys aren’t getting is that you can’t just slap burden after burden on business and then hand wave it away as if it doesn’t matter, or worse, callously suggest that they shouldn’t have been in business anyway. Horrible burdens like minimum wages, OSHA and not being allowed to dump waste wherever you damn well please? ETA: child labor laws. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [August 9, 2013, 12:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-the-republicans-ever-figure-out-why-they-lost/645224/2086 "2013-08-09T12:15:47Z")
> [@Gyrate](#): > > Right. If you would have opened a third pizza place, that suggests that there was a market for it. So if you don’t open that place in that location, someone else will open one (or something similar) there. Money on the table and all that. > > Only in the “job creator” mythos do people open businesses and create jobs just because they have a little extra cash lying around. This is how capitalism (and economics in general) works. If there is a spot in the city with no pizza place, and a demand for pizza there, a pizza place will open up, period. Maybe it won’t be big chain X, but someone will fulfill that demand. It doesn’t matter what the requirements for employee health care (especially if the cutoff is 50+ employees)- this demand will be met. Again, businesses don’t expand because they have extra money. They expand because there is unmet demand, and they want to meet it. Which is why I support increasing the minimum wage (to an actual living wage), massive public works (on useful projects), and other programs that benefit low income people- “trickle up” economics, if you will. If working poor people make more money, they will spend it. ---
**Author:** ![Ann\_Hedonia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ann_hedonia/32/319_2.png) [@Ann\_Hedonia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ann_Hedonia)\ **Post date:** [August 9, 2013, 12:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-the-republicans-ever-figure-out-why-they-lost/645224/2087 "2013-08-09T12:57:49Z")
> [@adaher](#): > > I predicted no such thing. Incentives don’t cause businesses or individuals to change things en masse, it happens at the margins, which has noticeable effects on the economy. A sizeable minority of small business owners are going to stay under 50 employees. If you owned a business that used commissioned sales people, would you fire the guy that was making huge commissions and hire someone that couldn’t sell water in a desert just to save money on commissions??? Well, YOU probably would but someone that is GOOD at business wouldn’t. Granted, the analysis of whether my new pizza parlor would be profitable would take into account the cost of labor and the cost of labor would take into account the fact that I have to compensate my labor force in accordance with the law, but if hat analysis shows that I can still turn a profit in that location, I wouldn’t walk away from that money just to prove a political point. Furthermore, if all the workers in the neighborhood of my new pizza place have jobs that pay a living wage, they’ll be able to go out for pizza more often. BTW, I actually OWN a small business. Like many small business owners I’ve always provided healthcare, though…even though the law didn’t make me. ---
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [August 9, 2013, 1:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-the-republicans-ever-figure-out-why-they-lost/645224/2088 "2013-08-09T13:10:49Z")
Here is why adaher’s business model is contrary to real world businesses, [who value their employees](http://www.theatlantic.com/business/archive/2013/03/the-trader-joes-lesson-how-to-pay-a-living-wage-and-still-make-money-in-retail/274322/): > [@](#): > > Many employers believe that one of the best ways to raise their profit margin is to cut labor costs. But companies like QuikTrip, the grocery-store chain Trader Joe’s, and Costco Wholesale are proving that the decision to offer low wages is a choice, not an economic necessity. All three are low-cost retailers, a sector that is traditionally known for relying on part-time, low-paid employees. Yet these companies have all found that the act of valuing workers can pay off in the form of increased sales and productivity. > > “Retailers start with this philosophy of seeing employees as a cost to be minimized,” says Zeynep Ton of MIT’s Sloan School of Management. That can lead businesses into a vicious cycle. Underinvestment in workers can result in operational problems in stores, which decrease sales. And low sales often lead companies to slash labor costs even further. Middle-income jobs have declined recently as a share of total employment, as many employers have turned full-time jobs into part-time positions with no benefits and unpredictable schedules. > > QuikTrip, Trader Joe’s, and Costco operate on a different model, Ton says. “They start with the mentality of seeing employees as assets to be maximized,” she says. As a result, their stores boast better operational efficiency and customer service, and those result in better sales. QuikTrip sales per labor hour are two-thirds higher than the average convenience-store chain, Ton found, and sales per square foot are over 50 percent higher. Another example of why conservative principles just don’t work. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [August 9, 2013, 1:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-the-republicans-ever-figure-out-why-they-lost/645224/2089 "2013-08-09T13:51:57Z")
> [@Fear\_Itself](#): > > Here is why adaher’s business model is contrary to real world businesses, [who value their employees](http://www.theatlantic.com/business/archive/2013/03/the-trader-joes-lesson-how-to-pay-a-living-wage-and-still-make-money-in-retail/274322/):Another example of why conservative principles just don’t work. Has QuikTrip’s model produced increasing revenue for the company? In other words, by paying their employees so well, is the company making more money each year? ---
**Author:** ![running\_coach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/running_coach/32/15836_2.png) [@running\_coach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/running_coach)\ **Post date:** [August 9, 2013, 2:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-the-republicans-ever-figure-out-why-they-lost/645224/2090 "2013-08-09T14:04:06Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > Has QuikTrip’s model produced increasing revenue for the company? > > In other words, by paying their employees so well, is the company making more money each year? And there’s the problem. A company is no longer successful if they make a profit but that profit _must_ increase every year. There’s a limit to how much can be made before you start with the draconian shit. ---
**Author:** ![jayjay](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jayjay/32/6765_2.png) [@jayjay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jayjay)\ **Post date:** [August 9, 2013, 2:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-the-republicans-ever-figure-out-why-they-lost/645224/2091 "2013-08-09T14:18:25Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > Has QuikTrip’s model produced increasing revenue for the company? > > In other words, by paying their employees so well, is the company making more money each year? Perpetual growth isn’t an economic virtue. Perpetual growth is cancer. The perpetual growth meme is an economic pathology. ---
**Author:** ![Astral\_Rejection](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/258eb7/32.png) [@Astral\_Rejection](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Astral_Rejection)\ **Post date:** [August 9, 2013, 3:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-the-republicans-ever-figure-out-why-they-lost/645224/2092 "2013-08-09T15:05:00Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > In other words, by paying their employees so well, is the company making more money each year? By paying their employees _so poorly_, has Walmart seen increasing profits every year? The answer is no. ---
**Author:** ![adaher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@adaher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adaher)\ **Post date:** [August 9, 2013, 3:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-the-republicans-ever-figure-out-why-they-lost/645224/2093 "2013-08-09T15:17:36Z")
> [@runner pat](#): > > Horrible burdens like minimum wages, OSHA and not being allowed to dump waste wherever you damn well please? > ETA: child labor laws. The health care law is not in that class. And it’s an additional burden on top of all the others, justified like the ones you used as examples, and unjustified. ---
**Author:** ![adaher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@adaher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adaher)\ **Post date:** [August 9, 2013, 3:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-the-republicans-ever-figure-out-why-they-lost/645224/2094 "2013-08-09T15:20:19Z")
> [@Fear\_Itself](#): > > Here is why adaher’s business model is contrary to real world businesses, [who value their employees](http://www.theatlantic.com/business/archive/2013/03/the-trader-joes-lesson-how-to-pay-a-living-wage-and-still-make-money-in-retail/274322/):Another example of why conservative principles just don’t work. The article is ignorant. Labor costs and wages are not synonymous. Costco pays more by employing few. While I do believe that’s a superior business model, it’s hard to scale up(thus Costco’s slower expansion than its competitors) and it provides less jobs. If every company used Costco’s model, there’d be no jobs at all for people with few skills and low drive. The typical McDonald’s employee you encounter at the register would be permanently unemployed. ---
**Author:** ![running\_coach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/running_coach/32/15836_2.png) [@running\_coach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/running_coach)\ **Post date:** [August 9, 2013, 3:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-the-republicans-ever-figure-out-why-they-lost/645224/2095 "2013-08-09T15:24:28Z")
> [@adaher](#): > > The health care law is not in that class. And it’s an additional burden on top of all the others, justified like the ones you used as examples, and unjustified. Child labor laws unjustified? Safety regulations unjustified? Proper disposal of waste unjustified? Minimum wages unjustified? That is fucking despicable. ---
**Author:** ![adaher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@adaher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adaher)\ **Post date:** [August 9, 2013, 3:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-the-republicans-ever-figure-out-why-they-lost/645224/2096 "2013-08-09T15:26:06Z")
Justified like the ones you used as examples. The justified regulations already have big costs, piling on more just insures that only big corporations will survive. The health care law is not in that class, as proven by the fact that there are so many exemptions. ---
**Author:** ![running\_coach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/running_coach/32/15836_2.png) [@running\_coach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/running_coach)\ **Post date:** [August 9, 2013, 3:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-the-republicans-ever-figure-out-why-they-lost/645224/2097 "2013-08-09T15:30:46Z")
> [@adaher](#): > > The article is ignorant. Labor costs and wages are not synonymous. Costco pays more by employing few. > > While I do believe that’s a superior business model, it’s hard to scale up(thus Costco’s slower expansion than its competitors) and it provides less jobs. If every company used Costco’s model, there’d be no jobs at all for people with few skills and low drive. The typical McDonald’s employee you encounter at the register would be permanently unemployed. Sam’s Club and CostCo have the same number of stores(appx. 620). [CostCo employs 174,000](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Costco), [Sam’s Club 110,000](http://corporate.walmart.com/our-story/our-stores/united-states-stores) ---
**Author:** ![jayjay](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jayjay/32/6765_2.png) [@jayjay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jayjay)\ **Post date:** [August 9, 2013, 3:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-the-republicans-ever-figure-out-why-they-lost/645224/2098 "2013-08-09T15:36:21Z")
> [@runner pat](#): > > Sam’s Club and CostCo have the same number of stores(appx. 620). [CostCo employs 174,000](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Costco), [Sam’s Club 110,000](http://corporate.walmart.com/our-story/our-stores/united-states-stores) Wow, **adaher** …have you been correct on a factual claim anytime in the last five years or so? ---
**Author:** ![Astral\_Rejection](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/258eb7/32.png) [@Astral\_Rejection](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Astral_Rejection)\ **Post date:** [August 9, 2013, 3:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-the-republicans-ever-figure-out-why-they-lost/645224/2099 "2013-08-09T15:37:40Z")
> [@adaher](#): > > The article is ignorant. Labor costs and wages are not synonymous. Costco pays more by employing few. > > While I do believe that’s a superior business model, it’s hard to scale up(thus Costco’s slower expansion than its competitors) and it provides less jobs. If every company used Costco’s model, there’d be no jobs at all for people with few skills and low drive. The typical McDonald’s employee you encounter at the register would be permanently unemployed. I grabbed publicly available info on revenue, store numbers, and enployees for the stores, and pretty much everything you just said isn’t factually true. Assuming for the sake of argument that all Walmart and Costco employees work at a store (incorrect, I know, but a close enough assumption for this purpose), and assuming revenue can be evenly split by store, here’s the figures: Walmart 2 million employees in 8970 stores 469 billion in revenue (222 employees per store) (52.2 mil in revenue per store) Costco 174,000 employees in 623 stores 97 billion in revenue (279 employees per store) (155 mil in revenue per store) ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [August 9, 2013, 3:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-the-republicans-ever-figure-out-why-they-lost/645224/2100 "2013-08-09T15:39:55Z")
> [@adaher](#): > > Justified like the ones you used as examples. The justified regulations already have big costs, piling on more just insures that only big corporations will survive. > > The health care law is not in that class, as proven by the fact that there are so many exemptions. More ignorance, the history of health care in the US shows that companies and business stumbled into offering health care because there were restrictions on salary increases, what they found eventually was one big reason why competition can be undermined without them having to move, there are plenty of examples I saw of would be entrepreneurs that started working on their own, only to find that health care costs force them to go back to work for big corporations to get care. The big cost you are talking about is a tool for big corporations to keep their fiefdoms in place, and one big reason why many oppose the reforms. What the status quo does is to prevent more competition and more jobs to develop. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-the-republicans-ever-figure-out-why-they-lost/645224.md?page=104) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-the-republicans-ever-figure-out-why-they-lost/645224.md?page=106)