# Will The Republicans ever figure out why they lost? **URL:** \ **Category:** Politics & Elections\ **Created:** [December 26, 2012, 9:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-the-republicans-ever-figure-out-why-they-lost/645224 "2012-12-26T21:33:49Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 111
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2013, 3:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-the-republicans-ever-figure-out-why-they-lost/645224/2201 "2013-08-14T15:27:52Z")
> [@Acsenray](#): > > There was never on the Democratic side a Tea Party dictating to the rest of the party who was an acceptable candidate. Well, there were the New Politics McGoverniks who essentially took over the party, at least at the national level, in 1972. They were in many ways admirable and high-minded young citizens, and right more often than wrong about the issues – but not about electoral politics; I’ve read arguments that they did damage to the party’s electoral prospects from which it did not recover until 1992. ---
**Author:** ![adaher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@adaher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adaher)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2013, 11:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-the-republicans-ever-figure-out-why-they-lost/645224/2202 "2013-08-14T23:49:32Z")
> [@Acsenray](#): > > There’s a huge fucking difference. The Blue Dogs are the most conservative faction of the Democrats. They are Democrats who often vote with Republican on a range of issues. Several of them _actually became Republicans_, like Billy Tauzin and Ralph Hall. The DLC and Clinton were never in that category. Then how come most of Clinton’s biggest initiatives got through Congress with Republican and Blue Dog support, and were opposed by liberal Democrats? Welfare reform, NAFTA, spending cuts, all passed over the objections of liberal Democrats. > [@](#): > > You know, the more I think about this, the more clever it seems. Clinton was a Blue Dog, meaning that the most popular Democratic president in generations was really practically a conservative Republican. It’s not clever, he actually was a moderate, with a distinct conservative bent on fiscal issues. What’s clever is the faction of the party that had no use for him claiming him once he became successful. > [@](#): > > Congratulations on this brilliant argument from ignorance. Executive agencies have for my entire lifetime faced continuous objections over their policies and they have often been struck down by courts. The only difference is that until recently they weren’t made into political issues. You’re confusing normal agency overstep with consistent disregard for the law. The Obama administration isn’t getting struck down for bureaucrats merely misinterepreting the law. They are actively flouting the law and claiming that this is the executive’s prerogative. ---
**Author:** ![adaher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@adaher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adaher)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2013, 12:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-the-republicans-ever-figure-out-why-they-lost/645224/2203 "2013-08-15T00:15:39Z")
And while we’re on the subject of Obama’s liberalism, his latest proposal is more tax and spend: > **[Obama pushes ambitious Internet access plan](https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/obama-pushes-ambitious-internet-access-plan/2013/08/13/646bf410-f321-11e2-bdae-0d1f78989e8a_story.html)** > > The president’s ambitious proposal relies on funding from the FCC, angering some GOP lawmakers. School internet access by imposing a tax on all consumers of mobile phones. Oh wait, a fee, sorry. Get money. Spend money. No real benefits from spent money. This is the type of liberalism that was discredited way back in the 1970s. ---
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2013, 12:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-the-republicans-ever-figure-out-why-they-lost/645224/2204 "2013-08-15T00:36:40Z")
> [@adaher](#): > > And while we’re on the subject of Obama’s liberalism, his latest proposal is more tax and spend: The reason that is so foreign to you is because that is how adults govern; they man up and impose new taxes to pay for new spending. Then we have Republicans who spend more than Democrats, vote in big tax cuts for themselves and their friends and blow up the deficit. Thank god for liberals; somebody has to clean up your messes every generation or so. ---
**Author:** ![adaher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@adaher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adaher)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2013, 12:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-the-republicans-ever-figure-out-why-they-lost/645224/2205 "2013-08-15T00:42:32Z")
Point taken, Republicans during the Bush years replaced tax and spend with borrow and spend. However, this is not going to go over well with the public. It’s a small improvement with a big price tag. Typical of 1970s liberalism. This idea that everything worthy should be done, no matter how much it costs or how little good it actually does in practice. ---
**Author:** ![jayjay](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jayjay/32/6765_2.png) [@jayjay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jayjay)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2013, 1:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-the-republicans-ever-figure-out-why-they-lost/645224/2206 "2013-08-15T01:10:01Z")
> [@adaher](#): > > Point taken, Republicans during the Bush years replaced tax and spend with borrow and spend. You misspelled “Reagan and both Bush years” up there. ---
**Author:** ![adaher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@adaher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adaher)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2013, 1:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-the-republicans-ever-figure-out-why-they-lost/645224/2207 "2013-08-15T01:12:41Z")
And that’s been one of the things that have hurt the Republican brand. That’s going AGAINST conservative ideology, thus the complaint by many activists that they lose because they aren’t conservative enough. Democrats win when they govern more conservatively than their ideology. Republicans also win when they govern more conservatively than their ideology. ---
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2013, 1:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-the-republicans-ever-figure-out-why-they-lost/645224/2208 "2013-08-15T01:18:20Z")
When was the last time Republicans governed more conservatively than their ideology? ---
**Author:** ![adaher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@adaher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adaher)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2013, 1:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-the-republicans-ever-figure-out-why-they-lost/645224/2209 "2013-08-15T01:20:49Z")
Reagan, probably. Reagan isn’t terribly conservative compared to today’s Republicans, but he was significantly to the right of the Republican mainstream in the 1980s. ---
**Author:** ![Gyrate](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gyrate/32/3588_2.png) [@Gyrate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gyrate)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2013, 1:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-the-republicans-ever-figure-out-why-they-lost/645224/2210 "2013-08-15T01:22:48Z")
> [@adaher](#): > > Reagan, probably. Reagan isn’t terribly conservative compared to today’s Republicans, but he was significantly to the right of the Republican mainstream in the 1980s. But Reagan borrowed-and-spent too, which you JUST SAID was going against conservative ideology. ---
**Author:** ![adaher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@adaher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adaher)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2013, 1:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-the-republicans-ever-figure-out-why-they-lost/645224/2211 "2013-08-15T01:28:19Z")
Yes, and that was probably the only real fault of the Reagan years from a policy standpoint. GWB governed the same way. His father did not, he inherited supply side but governed more as a traditional Republican, making a deal to raise taxes and cut spending. Which he paid for in the next election. ---
**Author:** ![Gyrate](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gyrate/32/3588_2.png) [@Gyrate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gyrate)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2013, 1:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-the-republicans-ever-figure-out-why-they-lost/645224/2212 "2013-08-15T01:37:15Z")
> [@adaher](#): > > Yes, and that was probably the only real fault of the Reagan years from a policy standpoint. :rolleyes: Apart from the massive expansion of government, the invasion of Grenada, Iran-Contra…no, never mind. There’s no point in going on. > [@](#): > > GWB governed the same way. His father did not, he inherited supply side but governed more as a traditional Republican, making a deal to raise taxes and cut spending. Which he paid for in the next election. I don’t think he acted unreasonably in raising taxes under the circumstances but given that “no new taxes” was his only policy statement from the campaign, he was hoist by his own petard on that one. He also took the worst of the fallout from the S&L scandal and subsequent trillion-dollar bailout (which was not helped by son Neil’s involvement in it either). ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2013, 1:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-the-republicans-ever-figure-out-why-they-lost/645224/2213 "2013-08-15T01:45:44Z")
> [@adaher](#): > > Yes, and that was probably the only real fault of the Reagan years from a policy standpoint. FYI that does touch me on a more personal level, never forget The massacre at El Mozote, and the white wash that the Reagan administration did to continue to support the Military thugs in El Salvador.: > **[El Mozote massacre](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/El_Mozote_massacre)** > > Civil War > Massacres > Aftermath > [@](#): > > News of the massacre first appeared in the world media on January 27, 1982, in reports published by The New York Times[13] and The Washington Post. Raymond Bonner wrote in the Times of seeing “the charred skulls and bones of dozens of bodies buried under burned-out roofs, beams, and shattered tiles.”[13] The villagers gave Bonner a list of 733 names—mostly children, women, and old people—all of whom, they claimed, had been murdered by government soldiers.[13][14] > > Alma Guillermoprieto of the Post, who visited the village separately a few days later, wrote of “dozens of decomposing bodies still seen beneath the rubble and lying in nearby fields, despite the month that has passed since the incident … countless bits of bones—skulls, rib cages, femurs, a spinal column—poked out of the rubble.”[15] > > Both reporters cited Rufina Amaya, a witness who had escaped into a tree during the attack. She told the reporters that the army had killed her husband and her four children, the youngest of whom was eight months old, and then lit the bodies on fire.[13] > Ruins of a burned building. > > Salvadoran army and government leaders denied the reports and officials of the Reagan administration called them “gross exaggerations.”[15] The Associated Press reported that “the U.S. Embassy disputed the reports, saying its own investigation had found … that no more than 300 people had lived in El Mozote.”[14] ---
**Author:** ![adaher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@adaher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adaher)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2013, 4:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-the-republicans-ever-figure-out-why-they-lost/645224/2214 "2013-08-15T04:04:30Z")
> [@Gyrate](#): > > :rolleyes: Apart from the massive expansion of government, the invasion of Grenada, Iran-Contra…no, never mind Iran Contra was a scandal, not so much of a policy. I guess it’s sorta a policy, but generally I don’t like to refer to illegal actions as “policies”. Expansion of government? Only the Defense Department, and in the context of the 80s it was a good policy. IT made less sense to do the same during the Bush years. Al qaeda is not the Soviet Union. > [@](#): > > I don’t think he acted unreasonably in raising taxes under the circumstances but given that “no new taxes” was his only policy statement from the campaign, he was hoist by his own petard on that one. He also took the worst of the fallout from the S&L scandal and subsequent trillion-dollar bailout (which was not helped by son Neil’s involvement in it either). He actually got a decent deal from the Democrats, the problem was that it broke a promise, and the fiscal situation hadn’t changed. He couldn’t claim that new events made it necessary to break his promise. The other problem was that the deal became null and void as soon as Democrats captured unified control of the government. The tax increases went into effect immediately, the spending cuts were for later. Most of them ended up happening anyway, but as part of the 1993 bill. So basically Democrats got TWO immediate tax increases in exchange for one set of spending cuts. Which is why Republicans don’t trust them. However, I do think Republicans, minus the Tea Party, would accept a deal to raise taxes and cut spending if a) the spending cuts were at least 2-1 over tax increases, and b) took effect immediately, rather than at the end of a ten-year window. ---
**Author:** ![adaher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@adaher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adaher)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2013, 4:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-the-republicans-ever-figure-out-why-they-lost/645224/2215 "2013-08-15T04:07:11Z")
> [@GIGObuster](#): > > FYI that does touch me on a more personal level, never forget The massacre at El Mozote, and the white wash that the Reagan administration did to continue to support the Military thugs in El Salvador.: > > [El Mozote massacre - Wikipedia](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/El_Mozote_massacre) Latin America policy in the years before Latin America became nearly 100% democratic was ugly because there were no saints anywhere. It’s like our Middle East policy today. Who should we support in Egypt? The Islamists, or the military? Supporting neither is not an option our leaders are willing to consider, and rightfully so. You don’t get credit in foreign policy for ducking the tough choices. Between the Marxist rebels and the elected government, the government was clearly the better choice. and we found out clearly that the marxist rebels had no constituency in El salvador because like all the other Marxist groups, they died out after their outside support dried up. ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2013, 4:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-the-republicans-ever-figure-out-why-they-lost/645224/2216 "2013-08-15T04:13:10Z")
> [@adaher](#): > > Latin America policy in the years before Latin America became nearly 100% democratic was ugly because there were no saints anywhere. It’s like our Middle East policy today. Who should we support in Egypt? The Islamists, or the military? Supporting neither is not an option our leaders are willing to consider, and rightfully so. You don’t get credit in foreign policy for ducking the tough choices. We are talking about Reagan, so with your distraction here I can see you have no reply whatsoever about your ignorance shown. > [@adaher](#): > > Between the Marxist rebels and the elected government, the government was clearly the better choice. and we found out clearly that the marxist rebels had no constituency in El salvador because like all the other Marxist groups, they died out after their outside support dried up. And you should stop digging and pasting your ignorance for all to see, the truth commission found that more than 80% of all the crimes were committed by the Military and right wing Death Squads in El Salvador. ---
**Author:** ![Robot\_Arm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/robot_arm/32/18280_2.png) [@Robot\_Arm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Robot_Arm)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2013, 4:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-the-republicans-ever-figure-out-why-they-lost/645224/2217 "2013-08-15T04:36:19Z")
> [@adaher](#): > > The other problem was that the deal became null and void as soon as Democrats captured unified control of the government. The tax increases went into effect immediately, the spending cuts were for later. Most of them ended up happening anyway, but as part of the 1993 bill. So basically Democrats got TWO immediate tax increases in exchange for one set of spending cuts. Which is why Republicans don’t trust them. When the alternative is repeated tax cuts and spending increases, I know who I trust to get our fiscal house in order. **adaher** , at some point you have to stop waving your hands and saying “but that doesn’t count!” Reagan, Bush, and Bush are the Republican presidents since I became eligible to vote. Those are the people they nominated and got elected. That’s the track record they’ve established over a generation. If they want to convince me the next one would be different it will take more than reaching into a hat and saying “this time for sure.” ---
**Author:** ![adaher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@adaher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adaher)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2013, 4:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-the-republicans-ever-figure-out-why-they-lost/645224/2218 "2013-08-15T04:37:53Z")
That may be true, but that probably speaks more to the relative power of the factions rather than the intent. If the Marxists had won, the mass graves would have been pretty full, as is always the case wherever they take power. Marxism is such a monstrous ideology that the policy was justified. Not to mention the fact that it was an elected government we were supporting against an outside-funded rebellion, and most importantly, that policy led to El Salvador being a free country today. If the Marxists had won, it would not be. ---
**Author:** ![Robot\_Arm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/robot_arm/32/18280_2.png) [@Robot\_Arm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Robot_Arm)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2013, 4:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-the-republicans-ever-figure-out-why-they-lost/645224/2219 "2013-08-15T04:39:26Z")
> [@adaher](#): > > That may be true, but that probably speaks more to the relative power of the factions rather than the intent. And we know how important intentions are to you. ---
**Author:** ![adaher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@adaher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adaher)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2013, 4:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-the-republicans-ever-figure-out-why-they-lost/645224/2220 "2013-08-15T04:41:04Z")
> [@Robot\_Arm](#): > > When the alternative is repeated tax cuts and spending increases, I know who I trust to get our fiscal house in order. > > **adaher** , at some point you have to stop waving your hands and saying “but that doesn’t count!” Reagan, Bush, and Bush are the Republican presidents since I became eligible to vote. Those are the people they nominated and got elected. That’s the track record they’ve established over a generation. If they want to convince me the next one would be different it will take more than reaching into a hat and saying “this time for sure.” I haven’t said it didn’t count, in fact I said the opposite. Their performance damaged the republican brand. Thus, the Republicans need a successful administration to get the ship righted again. And they’ll get another chance simply because in a two party system both parties take turns at the top. The only question is how soon. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-the-republicans-ever-figure-out-why-they-lost/645224.md?page=110) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-the-republicans-ever-figure-out-why-they-lost/645224.md?page=112)