# Will The Republicans ever figure out why they lost? **URL:** \ **Category:** Politics & Elections\ **Created:** [December 26, 2012, 9:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-the-republicans-ever-figure-out-why-they-lost/645224 "2012-12-26T21:33:49Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 112
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2013, 4:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-the-republicans-ever-figure-out-why-they-lost/645224/2221 "2013-08-15T04:53:20Z")
> [@adaher](#): > > That may be true, but that probably speaks more to the relative power of the factions rather than the intent. If the Marxists had won, the mass graves would have been pretty full, as is always the case wherever they take power. Marxism is such a monstrous ideology that the policy was justified. More smoke screens, when the monstrosity levels were so high it was not only the Marxists the ones that fought the military thugs in El Salvador. > [@adaher](#): > > Not to mention the fact that it was an elected government we were supporting against an outside-funded rebellion, and most importantly, that policy led to El Salvador being a free country today. If the Marxists had won, it would not be. More ignorance, the reason why the rebellion came to be was because of very naked fraudulent elections (more than 3 in a row) and the systematic assassination of the political leaders of the opposition, the history of El Salvador shows that only an ignorant would not had taken to arms under those conditions, and the recent history of Nicaragua and Chile shows that the socialists do give power when they do lose elections. But it is clear that that needs to be forgotten because many leaders on the right continue to tell you that big lie that justified military coups in Latin America during the 60s-80s. ---
**Author:** ![Robot\_Arm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/robot_arm/32/18280_2.png) [@Robot\_Arm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Robot_Arm)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2013, 4:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-the-republicans-ever-figure-out-why-they-lost/645224/2222 "2013-08-15T04:55:14Z")
> [@adaher](#): > > I haven’t said it didn’t count, in fact I said the opposite. Their performance damaged the republican brand. That’s exactly what I mean. You say that as if there is some ideal form of Republicanism and that those three presidents somehow strayed from the true path. You seem to think they were outliers, aberrations that are unlikely to be repeated. They’re not. The Bushes, père et fils, seem to be on the outs at the moment, but the praise for Reagan still flows freely. Reagan, Bush, and Bush didn’t damage the Republican brand, they are the Republican brand in my lifetime. If not them, who is? And if they want another try to prove to me that they can be successful, they’ll need to be a lot more candid about their past failures and what they’ve done to correct them. ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2013, 5:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-the-republicans-ever-figure-out-why-they-lost/645224/2223 "2013-08-15T05:03:47Z")
> [@Robot\_Arm](#): > > And we know how important intentions are to you. And once again, it was the big lie that was used to claim that there were other intentions behind what the president elect in Guatemala did when he opposed United Fruit. > **[Opinion | Ghosts of Guatemala’s Past (Published 2011)](https://www.nytimes.com/2011/06/04/opinion/04schlesinger.html?_r=0)** > > The United States overthrew Guatemala’s democratically-elected leader in 1954. The time has come to make amends. > [@](#): > > IN 1954, the American government committed one of the most reprehensible acts in its history when it authorized the C.I.A. to overthrow the democratically elected leader of Guatemala, President Jacobo Arbenz. It did so secretly but later rationalized the coup on the ground that the country was about to fall into communist hands. > > Guatemalan society has only recently recovered from the suffering that this intervention caused, including brutal military dictatorships and a genocidal civil war against its Indian population, which led to the deaths of an estimated 200,000 people. Only in the 1980s, when a peace process commenced, did democratic governance resume. But a silence about the Arbenz era continued. > > Now, after 25 years of increasingly vibrant democratic rule, Guatemalans feel confident enough to honor the memory of their deposed leader by incorporating his achievements into the national school curriculum, naming a highway after him, and preparing an official biography. America should follow suit by owning up to its own ignoble deed and recognizing Arbenz as the genuine social progressive that he was. (And now, I do not like Ike…) ---
**Author:** ![adaher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@adaher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adaher)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2013, 5:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-the-republicans-ever-figure-out-why-they-lost/645224/2224 "2013-08-15T05:03:56Z")
Yes, they have to jettison supply side theory and return to Republicanism as it was before. Cut taxes, but also cut spending. Eisenhower and Coolidge presided over large reductions in government, but only cut taxes to the extent possible. Which in Eisenhower’s case meant continuing to tolerate extremely high tax rates(although the actual tax burden was much lower than it is today). We know what good Republican government looks like because a) we had it, a long time ago, and b) we have it today at the state level. I’d have 100% confidence in a good Republican governor, and I had that confidence in Mitt Romney. Now if some Republican Senator with little grasp of policy like Ted Cruz runs, then I won’t hold out much hope. ---
**Author:** ![adaher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@adaher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adaher)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2013, 5:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-the-republicans-ever-figure-out-why-they-lost/645224/2225 "2013-08-15T05:06:51Z")
> [@GIGObuster](#): > > And once again, it was the big lie that was used to claim that there were other intentions behind what the president elect in Guatemala did when he opposed United Fruit. > > [http://www.nytimes.com/2011/06/04/opinion/04schlesinger.html?\_r=0](http://www.nytimes.com/2011/06/04/opinion/04schlesinger.html?_r=0) > (And now, I do not like Ike…) It was so reprehensible that Eisenhower bragged about it publicly. He credited his interventions in Guatamela and Iran as defeats for Communism. And “opposed United Fruit”? Now you’re being disingenous. They were going to simply steal most of United Fruit’s property. Back in the 1950s, such actions had consequences, and the US wasn’t the only country that considered such things to be tantamount to an act of war. ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2013, 5:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-the-republicans-ever-figure-out-why-they-lost/645224/2226 "2013-08-15T05:08:59Z")
> [@adaher](#): > > It was so reprehensible that Eisenhower bragged about it publicly. He credited his interventions in Guatamela and Iran as defeats for Communism. And as pointed before, it was a big lie from the Administration. > [@adaher](#): > > And “opposed United Fruit”? Now you’re being disingenous. They were going to simply steal most of United Fruit’s property. Back in the 1950s, such actions had consequences, and the US wasn’t the only country that considered such things to be tantamount to an act of war. \*\*And this is indeed defending fascism. \*\* ---
**Author:** ![adaher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@adaher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adaher)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2013, 5:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-the-republicans-ever-figure-out-why-they-lost/645224/2227 "2013-08-15T05:11:26Z")
Robot arm, to further elaborate, I realize the Republicans lost, and they earned their loss. I recognize why they lost, and how they can fix it. Many Democrats here have tried to argue that demographics doom them regardless of what they do unless they can find a way to appeal to them, presumably by becoming Democrat-lite. My only argument for the past 30 pages has been that this is nonsense, that if they govern well, everything will take care of itself. All political success follows from good governance. No matter what the ideology of the citizenry, people like to live decent lives, and never punish parties that keep things running relatively smoothly. ---
**Author:** ![adaher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@adaher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adaher)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2013, 5:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-the-republicans-ever-figure-out-why-they-lost/645224/2228 "2013-08-15T05:13:36Z")
> [@GIGObuster](#): > > And as pointed before, it was a big lie from the Administration. It was a big misunderstanding. In the 1950s there was a lot of paranoia. United Fruit convinced Ike that Commies were taking over. It wasn’t the first time the US would overreact. > [@](#): > > \*\*And this is indeed defending fascism. \*\* No, fascists appropriate property. It’s defending rule of law in the international sphere. It is illegal to just take foreigners’ property without compensation. And even today, there will be retaliation by the country whose citizens are being victimized. Let Indonesia nationalize Chinese businesses and see what happens. ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2013, 5:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-the-republicans-ever-figure-out-why-they-lost/645224/2229 "2013-08-15T05:46:29Z")
> [@adaher](#): > > It was a big misunderstanding. In the 1950s there was a lot of paranoia. United Fruit convinced Ike that Commies were taking over. It wasn’t the first time the US would overreact. This post really sounds like good cop. > [@adaher](#): > > No, fascists appropriate property. It’s defending rule of law in the international sphere. It is illegal to just take foreigners’ property without compensation. And even today, there will be retaliation by the country whose citizens are being victimized. Let Indonesia nationalize Chinese businesses and see what happens. And the bad cop shows up. 🙂 More ignorance, I guess you are not even aware of the reparations the German companies had and have to give to the former slave laborers that Hitler and buddies obtained for them. ---
**Author:** ![adaher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@adaher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adaher)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2013, 6:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-the-republicans-ever-figure-out-why-they-lost/645224/2230 "2013-08-15T06:05:44Z")
Reparations are not illegal appropriation of property. Neither is appropriation with market value compensation. Simply nationalizing land owned by foreigners is illegal, and invites just retaliation from the injured country. We don’t do coups anymore over it, but then the world is kindler and gentler than it was in the 1950s. And the 1950s were kindler and gentler than 50 years previous, when nonpayment of debts were met by military force. ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2013, 6:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-the-republicans-ever-figure-out-why-they-lost/645224/2231 "2013-08-15T06:24:02Z")
> [@adaher](#): > > Reparations are not illegal appropriation of property. Neither is appropriation with market value compensation. That is nice, it also avoids dealing with the point as usual. Once again the point was to show that it is really ignorant to claim that while the fascists did appropriations, it was also for the protection of the companies and corporations, the German owners still kept their business, and that takes us to another feature of fascism, > **[Fascism | Definition, Meaning, Characteristics, Examples, & History |...](https://www.britannica.com/topic/fascism)** > > Fascism, political ideology and mass movement that dominated central, southern, and eastern Europe between 1919 and 1945 and was characterized by extreme militant nationalism, hatred of communism and socialism, contempt for democracy, and belief in... > [@](#): > > Fascist movements criticized parliamentary democracy for allowing the Marxist threat to exist in the first place. According to Hitler, democracy undermined the natural selection of ruling elites and was “nothing other than the systematic cultivation of human failure.” Joseph Goebbels, Hitler’s minister of propaganda, maintained that the people never rule themselves and claimed that every history-making epoch had been created by aristocrats. Indeed, the ruling elites were the German capitalists and rich people, any other elite , like the intellectual one, was prosecuted. > [@](#): > > However, the economic programs of the great majority of fascist movements were extremely conservative, favouring the wealthy far more than the middle class and the working class. Their talk of national “socialism” was quite fraudulent in this respect. Although some workers were duped by it before the fascists came to power, most remained loyal to the traditional antifascist parties of the left. As historian John Weiss noted, “Property and income distribution and the traditional class structure remained roughly the same under fascist rule. What changes there were favored the old elites or certain segments of the party leadership.” Historian Roger Eatwell concurred: “If a revolution is understood to mean a significant shift in class relations, including a redistribution of income and wealth, there was no Nazi revolution.” ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2013, 6:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-the-republicans-ever-figure-out-why-they-lost/645224/2232 "2013-08-15T06:48:08Z")
Correction: That first paragraph should say that: That is nice, it also avoids dealing with the point as usual. Once again the point was to show that it is really ignorant to \*\*forget \*\*that while the fascists did appropriations, it was also \*\*done \*\*for the protection of the companies and corporations, the German owners still kept their business. ---
**Author:** ![Robot\_Arm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/robot_arm/32/18280_2.png) [@Robot\_Arm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Robot_Arm)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2013, 7:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-the-republicans-ever-figure-out-why-they-lost/645224/2233 "2013-08-15T07:19:50Z")
> [@adaher](#): > > Robot arm, to further elaborate, I realize the Republicans lost, and they earned their loss. I recognize why they lost, and how they can fix it. Many Democrats here have tried to argue that demographics doom them regardless of what they do unless they can find a way to appeal to them, presumably by becoming Democrat-lite. > > My only argument for the past 30 pages has been that this is nonsense, that if they govern well, everything will take care of itself. All political success follows from good governance. No matter what the ideology of the citizenry, people like to live decent lives, and never punish parties that keep things running relatively smoothly. The Republicans don’t need to learn from their losses as much as they need to learn from their victories. > [@adaher](#): > > It was a big misunderstanding. In the 1950s there was a lot of paranoia. United Fruit convinced Ike that Commies were taking over. It wasn’t the first time the US would overreact. > > No, fascists appropriate property. It’s defending rule of law in the international sphere. It is illegal to just take foreigners’ property without compensation. And even today, there will be retaliation by the country whose citizens are being victimized. Let Indonesia nationalize Chinese businesses and see what happens. We overthrew a government, which was an overreaction to something that hadn’t actually happened yet, and you consider that to be upholding international law? I thought Bush the Younger invented preemptive retaliation, but I guess it goes back further than I thought. ---
**Author:** ![adaher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@adaher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adaher)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2013, 9:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-the-republicans-ever-figure-out-why-they-lost/645224/2234 "2013-08-15T09:00:49Z")
> [@Robot\_Arm](#): > > The Republicans don’t need to learn from their losses as much as they need to learn from their victories. I like that. Yes, learn from the mistakes they made while governing. That’s more important than the tactics of an election. sure, John McCain’s campaign was amateurish compared to Obama’s, but if Bush had been a President with a 60% approval rating I don’t think Obama could have beaten him. > [@](#): > > We overthrew a government, which was an overreaction to something that hadn’t actually happened yet, and you consider that to be upholding international law? I thought Bush the Younger invented preemptive retaliation, but I guess it goes back further than I thought. Now I didn’t say it was upholding international law. It was a dirty war, the Cold War, and we responded to covert Communist actions with covert actions of our own. That was how the bulk of the war was fought: they try to undermine and overthrow governments allied to us, we tried to do the same to them. Critics of this policy never say whether they think we should have unilaterally disarmed or whether a real war would have been a preferable option. I said that it’s a kindler and gentler time now, but mainly the Cold War just ended, so we don’t feel the need to panic and overthrow governments we don’t like anymore. Another point: The most famous interventions we made, the critics don’t really attack much. When Truman aided the Greek government, this was considered wise and a new doctrine was named after it: containment. Eisenhower was only continuing that policy and it continued up until Reagan: try to overthrow a friendly government, and we’ll send arms to that government. So the critics of that policy tend to focus on the less well known or covert actions, because it’s easier to paint those actions as shady. But I dont’ see any moral difference between what we did in El Salvador and what we did in Greece. ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2013, 9:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-the-republicans-ever-figure-out-why-they-lost/645224/2235 "2013-08-15T09:19:33Z")
> [@adaher](#): > > Now I didn’t say it was upholding international law. It was a dirty war, the Cold War, and we responded to covert Communist actions with covert actions of our own. That was how the bulk of the war was fought: they try to undermine and overthrow governments allied to us, we tried to do the same to them. Critics of this policy never say whether they think we should have unilaterally disarmed or whether a real war would have been a preferable option. > > I said that it’s a kindler and gentler time now, but mainly the Cold War just ended, so we don’t feel the need to panic and overthrow governments we don’t like anymore. Just like in Iran, the repercussions of those interventions have continued even after the cold war is over. Once again this is ignoring the very point that those interventions were blunders. > [@adaher](#): > > Another point: The most famous interventions we made, the critics don’t really attack much. When Truman aided the Greek government, this was considered wise and a new doctrine was named after it: containment. Eisenhower was only continuing that policy and it continued up until Reagan: try to overthrow a friendly government, and we’ll send arms to that government. So the critics of that policy tend to focus on the less well known or covert actions, because it’s easier to paint those actions as shady. But I dont’ see any moral difference between what we did in El Salvador and what we did in Greece. Sure, it is no wonder when your sources ignore the Salvadoran Truth commission. ---
**Author:** ![adaher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@adaher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adaher)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2013, 9:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-the-republicans-ever-figure-out-why-they-lost/645224/2236 "2013-08-15T09:49:17Z")
> [@GIGObuster](#): > > Just like in Iran, the repercussions of those interventions have continued even after the cold war is over. Once again this is ignoring the very point that those interventions were blunders. Not intervening in Cuba was a blunder as well, and that’s one we still have to live with. I’d say the consequences of not intervening were just as bad and in many cases worse. > [@](#): > > Sure, it is no wonder when your sources ignore the Salvadoran Truth commission. The Marxist rebels were not even a native insurgency, they were astroturf courtesy of the Cuban government. We should not have helped the elected government? ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2013, 10:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-the-republicans-ever-figure-out-why-they-lost/645224/2237 "2013-08-15T10:13:06Z")
> [@adaher](#): > > Not intervening in Cuba was a blunder as well, and that’s one we still have to live with. I’d say the consequences of not intervening were just as bad and in many cases worse. :rolleyes: > **[Bay of Pigs Invasion](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bay_of_Pigs_Invasion)** > > Cuban victory > CIA > Brigade 2506 > U.S. Air Force > Brigade 2506: > [@adaher](#): > > The Marxist rebels were not even a native insurgency, they were astroturf courtesy of the Cuban government. We should not have helped the elected government? :rolleyes: What part of the 3 fraudulent elections and the killing of the opposition did you miss? Once again, it was not just Marxists who took to arms. The repression by the military included the killing of priests, teachers and labor leaders. ---
**Author:** ![adaher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@adaher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adaher)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2013, 10:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-the-republicans-ever-figure-out-why-they-lost/645224/2238 "2013-08-15T10:29:12Z")
Didn’t say they were saints, only that much like the Middle East today, we had to pick the side that we thought was less bad. And history proved that the right-wing juntas were less bad than the Communists. The Commie body count dwarfs anything else in history by several orders of magnitude. ---
**Author:** ![running\_coach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/running_coach/32/15836_2.png) [@running\_coach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/running_coach)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2013, 10:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-the-republicans-ever-figure-out-why-they-lost/645224/2239 "2013-08-15T10:35:58Z")
> [@adaher](#): > > Didn’t say they were saints, only that much like the Middle East today, we had to pick the side that we thought was less bad. **And history proved that the right-wing juntas were less bad than the Communists.** The Commie body count dwarfs anything else in history by several orders of magnitude. And that makes them acceptable? If they had a country the size of the old U.S.S.R. or China to play with, I’m sure the tolls would be similar. ---
**Author:** ![Onomatopoeia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/onomatopoeia/32/4145_2.png) [@Onomatopoeia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Onomatopoeia)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2013, 12:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-the-republicans-ever-figure-out-why-they-lost/645224/2240 "2013-08-15T12:41:38Z")
> [@adaher](#): > > Not intervening in Cuba was a blunder as well, and that’s one we still have to live with. I’d say the consequences of not intervening were just as bad and in many cases worse. You’re joking, right? In what way was not intervening in Cuba worse, or even equivalent, than the Mossadeq/BP fiasco? Iran is what it is today because of US/GB intervention/aggression. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-the-republicans-ever-figure-out-why-they-lost/645224.md?page=111) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-the-republicans-ever-figure-out-why-they-lost/645224.md?page=113)