# Will The Republicans ever figure out why they lost? **URL:** \ **Category:** Politics & Elections\ **Created:** [December 26, 2012, 9:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-the-republicans-ever-figure-out-why-they-lost/645224 "2012-12-26T21:33:49Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 14
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [December 28, 2012, 9:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-the-republicans-ever-figure-out-why-they-lost/645224/261 "2012-12-28T21:58:01Z")
> [@Robot\_Arm](#): > > Remember that the TEA Party stands for “Taxed Enough Already”. No, it does not. [The initial focus of the protests was stimulus spending, not taxes.](http://mediamatters.org/research/2009/04/08/report-fair-and-balanced-fox-news-aggressively/149009) “Taxed Enough Already” is a backronym that someone invented later. And despite their early insistence that they were only interested in fiscal matters, Tea Party groups often wound up talking about social issues and in the 2012 primaries they preferred social conservatives like Santorum and Bachmann (and anyone with a pulse) to Romney. At the risk of oversimplifying, they’re social conservatives who were sold a bill of goods by the Republicans for years and who want the party to deliver on its promises. ---
**Author:** ![Robot\_Arm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/robot_arm/32/18280_2.png) [@Robot\_Arm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Robot_Arm)\ **Post date:** [December 28, 2012, 10:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-the-republicans-ever-figure-out-why-they-lost/645224/262 "2012-12-28T22:22:24Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > The “Tea Party” isn’t just about taxes. And they haven’t been getting what they want in regards to taxes; I don’t think any tax cut would be enough for them. The Right in general is heavily infested with people for whom there’s no such thing as “enough”; they always want lower taxes, more money, a bigger military, more power. > [@Marley23](#): > > No, it does not. [The initial focus of the protests was stimulus spending, not taxes.](http://mediamatters.org/research/2009/04/08/report-fair-and-balanced-fox-news-aggressively/149009) “Taxed Enough Already” is a backronym that someone invented later. And despite their early insistence that they were only interested in fiscal matters, Tea Party groups often wound up talking about social issues and in the 2012 primaries they preferred social conservatives like Santorum and Bachmann (and anyone with a pulse) to Romney. At the risk of oversimplifying, they’re social conservatives who were sold a bill of goods by the Republicans for years and who want the party to deliver on its promises. To some degree, I agree with both these posts. I was just trying to point out the odd blend of hypocrisy, dishonesty, or dissonance in how the Tea Party presents itself.[sup]\*[/sup] They say they want lower taxes, have been getting lower taxes for years, were indifferent to the primary candidate who promised them lower taxes, and look poised to repeat that pattern indefinitely. But that’s a rather different situation than **Der Trihs** described, of factions splintering because they’ve only been paid lip service for years. You can’t pander to someone if you don’t know what they want. And you _really_ can’t pander to someone if even they don’t know what they want. - It is, perhaps, not fair to expect the Tea Party to present a single, unified, coherent voice to the public. It is not a monolithic group. What appears to be their confusion may just be different people speaking at different times and trying to rally the group behind them. It’s hardly unique to them. In four years the Reform Party went from Ross Perot to Pat Buchanan. ---
**Author:** ![Evil\_Captor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/f17d59/32.png) [@Evil\_Captor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_Captor)\ **Post date:** [December 28, 2012, 10:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-the-republicans-ever-figure-out-why-they-lost/645224/263 "2012-12-28T22:32:05Z")
Actually, I found Smiling Jack’s thesis, once he finally got around to presenting it, interesting and probably right. Neither party is reaching out to the working class, if the Republicans HAD made real economic concessions to the interests of working class Americans, they might well have swung the elections. And he’s right, neither Republicans nor the Democrats made any such concessions. They talked about how much they loved the middle class, but economically, they did squat for the middle class. (It IS interesting how the Republicans cling to trickle-down and its various iterations (“job creators”). They hang onto it as fiercely as the European nobility clung to “the divine right of kings” and for much the same reasons.) But the OP also reveals the problem of getting disaffected whites (Tea Party types) to change things: many can’t or won’t give up their racism. Most working class whites are in the exact same boat as working class blacks and latinos, they are natural allies, economically speaking. But many working class whites have swallowed the lies about blacks as a class being utterly dependent on government handouts wholesale and so can’t see that blacks are their allies. In addition, the whole “Working class” thing is a bad idea. With the One Percent in control, the entire middle class is on the chopping block, or headed that way. The smart thing to do is to describe your affinity group as “the middle class” of all colors and get a dangerously large voting bloc going. The Latino issue is a different and more difficult matter. I know a lot of working class whites who are absolutely not afraid of hard work, but who are understandably reluctant to work at wages that will not allow them to house, feed and clothe their families and themselves. I think we need to take the concerns of working class whites about Latinos squeezing them out of jobs seriously. I find the notion that Latinos only take jobs that whites refuse to do way too glib and easy. I do think there is ample room for progressives and people like Smiling Jack to meet on economic issues, but I also see a lot of problems. Interesting times we live in! ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [December 28, 2012, 10:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-the-republicans-ever-figure-out-why-they-lost/645224/264 "2012-12-28T22:42:22Z")
What exactly are reasonable “concessions” to the middle class? (“Working class” is not a label that most Americans accept.) Aren’t they things like universal health care, stimulus spending, unemployment benefits, mortgage assistance, shoring up social security and medicare … you know the kinds of things that tend to benefit the economy, and, you know, actually make ordinary people’s lives better? ---
**Author:** ![Saint\_Cad](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/saint_cad/32/18907_2.png) [@Saint\_Cad](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Saint_Cad)\ **Post date:** [December 28, 2012, 10:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-the-republicans-ever-figure-out-why-they-lost/645224/265 "2012-12-28T22:44:38Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > Yes. The Republicans have spent decades feeding the social conservatives, theocrats and racists the rhetoric they wanted to hear and taking their votes, while catering almost exclusively to the plutocrats. Now after all these years they appear to have woken up to this. I actually find this post offensive. There are many of us Republicans that have tried to distance ourselves from the Radcal Right. If you were to say Republican leaders then yes, but don’t put it on every rank and file member. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [December 28, 2012, 10:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-the-republicans-ever-figure-out-why-they-lost/645224/266 "2012-12-28T22:49:14Z")
> [@Acsenray](#): > > What exactly are reasonable “concessions” to the middle class? (“Working class” is not a label that most Americans accept.) Aren’t they things like universal health care, stimulus spending, unemployment benefits, mortgage assistance, shoring up social security and medicare … you know the kinds of things that tend to benefit the economy, and, you know, actually make ordinary people’s lives better? Well, we can’t reasonably expect Republicans to do any of **that,** or they wouldn’t be Republicans; gonna have to find some other forms of concessions to the middle class. But **SmilinJack’s** idea (a harder line on immigration) ain’t gonna be a winner outside the states bording on Mexico, not counting California. Something yet else, then. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [December 28, 2012, 10:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-the-republicans-ever-figure-out-why-they-lost/645224/267 "2012-12-28T22:51:08Z")
> [@Evil\_Captor](#): > > (It IS interesting how the Republicans cling to trickle-down and its various iterations (“job creators”). They hang onto it as fiercely as the European nobility clung to “the divine right of kings” and for much the same reasons.) You mean, a combination of economic/social self-interest and sincere superstition? ---
**Author:** ![Saint\_Cad](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/saint_cad/32/18907_2.png) [@Saint\_Cad](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Saint_Cad)\ **Post date:** [December 28, 2012, 10:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-the-republicans-ever-figure-out-why-they-lost/645224/268 "2012-12-28T22:56:15Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > Obama wasn’t as beatable as you might like to think - not in 2008 when so many voters were fed up with Bush, and to a lesser extent in 2012 when the economy was recovering. Do you think Republicans would have done better against Obama if they’d told the social conservative faction to go to hell? I don’t. You could ask the same question in reverse, too. Neither of those factions by itself is as large as the Democratic base. Obama never laid out a plan other than “I’m not Bush, McCain is.” and McCain countered with Palin and a hard turn to the Right :rolleyes: Obama ran the perfect campaign in 2012 by doing nothing and letting Romney self-destruct. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [December 28, 2012, 10:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-the-republicans-ever-figure-out-why-they-lost/645224/269 "2012-12-28T22:57:15Z")
> [@Evil\_Captor](#): > > I do think there is ample room for progressives and people like Smiling Jack to meet on economic issues, but I also see a lot of problems. Interesting times we live in! Well, paleoconservatives (like Pat Buchanan and, apparently, **SmilinJack)** are indeed economic populists, as suspicious of Wall Street as of Washington; there’s some common ground with progressives there. And paleocons’ military isolationism converges with progressives’ pacifism – both lefties and Buchananites have been hostile to the Iraq War, etc. Problem is that the paleocons’ world-view won’t allow them to see that fulfilling an economic-populist agenda depends mostly on national-governmental solutions; pull the fangs of Washington, and those fangs will only get passed on to Wall Street, which already has too many. ---
**Author:** ![Robot\_Arm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/robot_arm/32/18280_2.png) [@Robot\_Arm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Robot_Arm)\ **Post date:** [December 28, 2012, 11:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-the-republicans-ever-figure-out-why-they-lost/645224/270 "2012-12-28T23:02:30Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > You mean, a combination of economic/social self-interest and sincere superstition? Mind if I steal that? It only works in context, but if I’m ever in a conversation in which the context is right, I hope I remember it. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [December 29, 2012, 12:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-the-republicans-ever-figure-out-why-they-lost/645224/271 "2012-12-29T00:01:42Z")
> [@Saint\_Cad](#): > > Obama never laid out a plan other than “I’m not Bush, McCain is.” and McCain countered with Palin and a hard turn to the Right :rolleyes: You’re half-right. > [@](#): > > Obama ran the perfect campaign in 2012 by doing nothing and letting Romney self-destruct. If a lot of conservatives think the way you do, the answer to the OP’s question will be “no.” Of course the OP hasn’t come anywhere close to figuring out why the Republicans lost in 2008 and 2012 either. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [December 29, 2012, 12:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-the-republicans-ever-figure-out-why-they-lost/645224/272 "2012-12-29T00:13:21Z")
> [@Robot\_Arm](#): > > Mind if I steal that? It only works in context, but if I’m ever in a conversation in which the context is right, I hope I remember it. By all means. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [December 29, 2012, 12:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-the-republicans-ever-figure-out-why-they-lost/645224/273 "2012-12-29T00:15:15Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > Of course the OP hasn’t come anywhere close to figuring out why the Republicans lost in 2008 and 2012 either. The OP hasn’t come anywhere close to figuring out why the wrong side won the Civil War. ---
**Author:** ![Dangerosa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/22d042/32.png) [@Dangerosa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dangerosa)\ **Post date:** [December 29, 2012, 12:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-the-republicans-ever-figure-out-why-they-lost/645224/274 "2012-12-29T00:33:15Z")
> [@Exapno\_Mapcase](#): > > Wait, your response to my saying that the Republicans won’t win until they acknowledge their anti-minority stance is to say that I’m wrong, that the Republicans will win if they acknowledge their anti-minority stance? Yeah, that sure puts me in my place. I’m sorry, I wasn’t trying to put you in your place, I think I was trying to agree with you. ---
**Author:** ![Exapno\_Mapcase](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/exapno_mapcase/32/1051_2.png) [@Exapno\_Mapcase](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Exapno_Mapcase)\ **Post date:** [December 29, 2012, 12:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-the-republicans-ever-figure-out-why-they-lost/645224/275 "2012-12-29T00:33:56Z")
> [@Saint\_Cad](#): > > I actually find this post offensive. There are many of us Republicans that have tried to distance ourselves from the Radcal Right. If you were to say Republican leaders then yes, but don’t put it on every rank and file member. Unfortunately, in the real world, rank and file members bear complete responsibility for Republican leaders. Imagine trying to convince those rank and file members that rank and file Democrats bear no responsibility for Obama, Pelosi, and Reid. Large numbers on the left have in fact been pounding Obama since he took office. It doesn’t matter. They created the current Democratic Party. And the rank and file Republicans created the current Republican Party. If you’re offended by it, then look to yourself. ---
**Author:** ![Robot\_Arm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/robot_arm/32/18280_2.png) [@Robot\_Arm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Robot_Arm)\ **Post date:** [December 29, 2012, 12:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-the-republicans-ever-figure-out-why-they-lost/645224/276 "2012-12-29T00:37:25Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > The OP hasn’t come anywhere close to figuring out why the wrong side won the Civil War. I hadn’t even noticed that **SmilinJack** was the OP. I feel even less guilty for my various hijacks now. ---
**Author:** ![Evil\_Captor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/f17d59/32.png) [@Evil\_Captor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_Captor)\ **Post date:** [December 29, 2012, 1:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-the-republicans-ever-figure-out-why-they-lost/645224/277 "2012-12-29T01:00:25Z")
> [@Acsenray](#): > > What exactly are reasonable “concessions” to the middle class? (“Working class” is not a label that most Americans accept.) Aren’t they things like universal health care, stimulus spending, unemployment benefits, mortgage assistance, shoring up social security and medicare … you know the kinds of things that tend to benefit the economy, and, you know, actually make ordinary people’s lives better? Well, not going after Medicare, Medicaid and Social Security all programs of great importance to working class Americans, would be good for a fricking START! Then developing policies to encourage companies to hire and promote Americans, and to discourage them from going overseas to build plants, that would also be EXCELLENT. But my favorite idea is one I found on Alternet: Institute laws that would declare that CEO pay can only be a fixed multiple of the minimum wage. I can see the conservative talking heads now bloviating about the URGENT need to raise the minimum wage! ---
**Author:** ![Evil\_Captor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/f17d59/32.png) [@Evil\_Captor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_Captor)\ **Post date:** [December 29, 2012, 1:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-the-republicans-ever-figure-out-why-they-lost/645224/278 "2012-12-29T01:06:54Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > You mean, a combination of economic/social self-interest and sincere superstition? No, that’s not exactly what I meant … it’s actually a lot better than what I meant. (Looks about shiftily.) So … that’s what I meant! Yeah! What you said! ---
**Author:** ![Evil\_Captor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/f17d59/32.png) [@Evil\_Captor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_Captor)\ **Post date:** [December 29, 2012, 1:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-the-republicans-ever-figure-out-why-they-lost/645224/279 "2012-12-29T01:13:26Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > Well, paleoconservatives (like Pat Buchanan and, apparently, **SmilinJack)** are indeed economic populists, as suspicious of Wall Street as of Washington; there’s some common ground with progressives there. And paleocons’ military isolationism converges with progressives’ pacifism – both lefties and Buchananites have been hostile to the Iraq War, etc. Problem is that the paleocons’ world-view won’t allow them to see that fulfilling an economic-populist agenda depends mostly on national-governmental solutions; pull the fangs of Washington, and those fangs will only get passed on to Wall Street, which already has too many. Well I think the Tea Party types have developed a healthy disdain for Wall Street types. They probably make a division between financial institutions and corporations that provide products and services that are a tad more … real, shall we say? That might provide enough leverage to curb the worst excesses of the corporations, as the financial sector is where the worst excesses have occurred. We could agree to disagree on the social issues and go at the corporations from both sides. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [December 29, 2012, 1:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-the-republicans-ever-figure-out-why-they-lost/645224/280 "2012-12-29T01:17:27Z")
> [@Evil\_Captor](#): > > Well I think the Tea Party types have developed a healthy disdain for Wall Street types. They probably make a division between financial institutions and corporations that provide products and services that are a tad more … real, shall we say? That might provide enough leverage to curb the worst excesses of the corporations, as the financial sector is where the worst excesses have occurred. We could agree to disagree on the social issues and go at the corporations from both sides. I wouldn’t even encourage Tea Party types to open their mouths against the financial sector. It could get really embarrassing. Before long they’ll be screaming “End the Fed!” and demanding a gold currency and the abolition of fractional-reserve banking and shit even more insane. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-the-republicans-ever-figure-out-why-they-lost/645224.md?page=13) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-the-republicans-ever-figure-out-why-they-lost/645224.md?page=15)