# Will The Republicans ever figure out why they lost? **URL:** \ **Category:** Politics & Elections\ **Created:** [December 26, 2012, 9:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-the-republicans-ever-figure-out-why-they-lost/645224 "2012-12-26T21:33:49Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 44
**Author:** ![adaher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@adaher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adaher)\ **Post date:** [June 28, 2013, 11:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-the-republicans-ever-figure-out-why-they-lost/645224/861 "2013-06-28T23:04:21Z")
> [@Oldeb](#): > > This is blatantly false. There are many older people who collect their social security check without the type of ID required in any of the proposed voting laws. And they cash it or withdraw it how? ---
**Author:** ![adaher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@adaher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adaher)\ **Post date:** [June 28, 2013, 11:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-the-republicans-ever-figure-out-why-they-lost/645224/862 "2013-06-28T23:08:46Z")
> [@Onomatopoeia](#): > > There are millions of Americans who don’t have a photo ID, and to call them incompetent is simply insulting, primarily because it isn’t true. You obviously have no idea what it means to be a member of the working poor who literally subsist day to day concerned if they will have food for themselves or their children by the end of the week, and for that perhaps you should get a pass, but ignorance of others’ circumstances is truly no reason to insult them. It is you who are showing ignorance. In order to work, you need ID, so your reference to the working poor is nonsense. > [@](#): > > There is at least one cite in this very thread that dismisses your contention. You are also quite incorrect about renting and traveling by bus or train. In many places in the US, you need nothing more than a SS # and a recent pay stub in order to rent an apartment. I have never heard of an ID requirement for traveling by bus or train. In fact, I traveled to Boston for business via Amtrak a few weeks ago and I wasn’t asked to present any ID at all.Again, not true, but I don’t expect any facts presented here will disabuse you of your delusions. [http://www.amtrak.com/servlet/ContentServer?pagename=am/AM\_Snippet\_C/IBLegacy&ibsref=PassengerID](http://www.amtrak.com/servlet/ContentServer?pagename=am/AM_Snippet_C/IBLegacy&ibsref=PassengerID) I travel Amtrak frequently, and ID is required to get your ticket. Same goes for Greyhound. Just because the rules were broken for you doesn’t mean it’s not required. Your reference to pay stub implies ID, since again, you can’t work without ID. To tell you the truth, I despise ID requirements for a lot of things. If liberals also opposed ID requirements for many of these things, I’d consider them sincere in their opposition to ID for voting. Since that is the ONLY case where they are opposed to ID requirements, then it’s reasonable to conclude that they see political advantage in it. ---
**Author:** ![computergeek](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e56c9b/32.png) [@computergeek](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/computergeek)\ **Post date:** [June 28, 2013, 11:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-the-republicans-ever-figure-out-why-they-lost/645224/863 "2013-06-28T23:14:15Z")
> [@adaher](#): > > And they cash it or withdraw it how? I believe SS money is sent electronically to most people’s checking accounts, if not for everyone. Your arguments are not making your side look good at all. Voter ID fraud hasn’t been proven to exist in any great number, so why do Voter ID at all? I’m also not sure I understand why you think Republicans should moderate their tone on same-sex marriage but not other things. They don’t have to give up on their pro-life stance, just stop being so extreme about it and continuing to stay stupid nonsense that doesn’t need to be said and can’t be defended. ---
**Author:** ![Oldeb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/ea666f/32.png) [@Oldeb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Oldeb)\ **Post date:** [June 28, 2013, 11:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-the-republicans-ever-figure-out-why-they-lost/645224/864 "2013-06-28T23:22:07Z")
> [@adaher](#): > > And they cash it or withdraw it how? There’s nothing to physically give a bank and no need to ever withdraw physical money. In fact, all benefit money paid by the Federal government is required to be done by electronic transaction. I don’t think you understand how Social Security, VA Benefits, or similar Federal benefits work. Fortunately, the Treasury Department understands that it can be confusing, especially considering that many of the people collecting social security have difficulty with technology. [So they created this handy page to explain how it all works.](http://www.godirect.org/) You may be particularly interested in the Direct Express cards. Alternately, for other ways in which people survive without ID you could read the link provided by **Little Nemo** earlier in the thread. > [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > This [article](http://www.npr.org/2012/01/28/146006217/why-new-photo-id-laws-mean-some-wont-vote) discusses why some people have difficulty meeting the new ID requirement. ---
**Author:** ![adaher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@adaher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adaher)\ **Post date:** [June 28, 2013, 11:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-the-republicans-ever-figure-out-why-they-lost/645224/865 "2013-06-28T23:22:51Z")
That’s what I’ve been saying. Being pro-life didn’t hurt the party in 2012 anymore than it hurt the party in any other election. Todd Akin and Dick Mourdock hurt the party. And the problem with not requiring ID to vote is that you can’t prove voter fraud without it. However, in areas where voter fraud is trackable, such as with absentee ballots, there’s a lot of it. Naturally, Democrats want to expand absentee balloting, and reduce the ability to detect fraud. Democrats also oppose voter purges, even though maintaining the voter rolls is the law, and there is evidence that thousands of voters double vote or vote outside their precinct. > **[Cracking down on people who vote twice.](https://slate.com/news-and-politics/2004/10/cracking-down-on-people-who-vote-twice.html)** > > Maybe Joe Moschella thought he was playing it safe. The 59-year-old retired transit employee had mailed his absentee ballot too late, he thought, so on... ---
**Author:** ![fumster](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/e9c0ed/32.png) [@fumster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/fumster)\ **Post date:** [June 29, 2013, 12:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-the-republicans-ever-figure-out-why-they-lost/645224/866 "2013-06-29T00:04:20Z")
> [@adaher](#): > > Democrats also oppose voter purges, even though maintaining the voter rolls is the law, and there is evidence that thousands of voters double vote or vote outside their precinct. And [voter purges in Florida](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Florida_Central_Voter_File) disenfranchised many voters who were eligible to vote. Democrats don’t want people who are ineligible to vote, they want to make it easier for people to be eligible. This may or may not be because people who have a hard time proving eligibility tend to vote Democrat, but there is no question that Republicans want to make it harder for people who are eligible to vote if they think those people will not vote for them. Hell, they don’t even hide it. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [June 29, 2013, 12:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-the-republicans-ever-figure-out-why-they-lost/645224/867 "2013-06-29T00:05:21Z")
> [@adaher](#): > > That’s what I’ve been saying. Being pro-life didn’t hurt the party in 2012 anymore than it hurt the party in any other election. The Pew Research Center came out with [this report](http://www.pewforum.org/Abortion/roe-v-wade-at-40.aspx) in January. > [@](#): > > As the 40th anniversary of the Supreme Court’s Roe v. Wade decision approaches, the public remains opposed to completely overturning the historic ruling on abortion. More than six-in-ten (63%) say they would not like to see the court completely overturn the Roe v. Wade decision, which established a woman’s constitutional right to abortion at least in the first three months of pregnancy. Only about three-in-ten (29%) would like to see the ruling overturned. These opinions are little changed from surveys conducted 10 and 20 years ago. > > Decades after the Supreme Court rendered its decision, on Jan. 22, 1973, most Americans (62%) know that Roe v. Wade dealt with abortion rather than school desegregation or some other issue. But the rest either guess incorrectly (17%) or do not know what the case was about (20%). And there are substantial age differences in awareness: Among those ages 50 to 64, 74% know that Roe v. Wade dealt with abortion, the highest percentage of any age group. Among those younger than 30, just 44% know this. > > The latest national survey by the Pew Research Center, conducted Jan. 9-13 among 1,502 adults, finds that abortion is viewed as a less important issue than in the past. Currently, 53% say abortion “is not that important compared to other issues,” up from 48% in 2009 and 32% in 2006. The percentage viewing abortion as a “critical issue facing the country” fell from 28% in 2006 to 15% in 2009 and now stands at 18%. > > Decades after the Supreme Court rendered its decision, on Jan. 22, 1973, most Americans (62%) know that Roe v. Wade dealt with abortion rather than school desegregation or some other issue. But the rest either guess incorrectly (17%) or do not know what the case was about (20%). And there are substantial age differences in awareness: Among those ages 50 to 64, 74% know that Roe v. Wade dealt with abortion, the highest percentage of any age group. Among those younger than 30, just 44% know this. > > The latest national survey by the Pew Research Center, conducted Jan. 9-13 among 1,502 adults, finds that **abortion is viewed as a less important issue than in the past.** Currently, 53% say abortion “is not that important compared to other issues,” up from 48% in 2009 and 32% in 2006. The percentage viewing abortion as a “critical issue facing the country” fell from 28% in 2006 to 15% in 2009 and now stands at 18%. > > However, the public continues to be divided over whether it is morally acceptable to have an abortion. Nearly half (47%) say it is morally wrong to have an abortion, while just 13% find this morally acceptable; 27% say this is not a moral issue and 9% volunteer that it depends on the situation. These opinions have changed little since 2006. That bolded part could be the answer. The abortion issue might ultimately be “resolved” not by disagreement fading, but by interest fading. Which amounts to final victory for the pro-choice side. And bodes ill for any pols campaigning on anti-abortion. ---
**Author:** ![adaher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@adaher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adaher)\ **Post date:** [June 29, 2013, 12:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-the-republicans-ever-figure-out-why-they-lost/645224/868 "2013-06-29T00:08:36Z")
> [@fumster](#): > > And [voter purges in Florida](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Florida_Central_Voter_File) disenfranchised many voters who were eligible to vote. Just as with voter ID laws, some purges are illegal. It all depends on how you go about it and the courts almost always get involved. In the case of the 2012 voter purge, it was completely justified, and Florida beat the federal government in the lawsuit. Mainly because the voter purge could have been accurate had the federal government shared its database. Plus, purges are required by law under the Help America Vote Act. > [@](#): > > Democrats don’t want people who are ineligible to vote, they want to make it easier for people to be eligible. This may or may not be because people who have a hard time proving eligibility tend to vote Democrat, but there is no question that Republicans want to make it harder for people who are eligible to vote if they think those people will not vote for them. Hell, they don’t even hide it. Republicans want an election system people can trust. You can’t trust a system in which James O’Keefe can get Eric Holder’s ballot and vote in his name. ---
**Author:** ![adaher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@adaher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adaher)\ **Post date:** [June 29, 2013, 12:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-the-republicans-ever-figure-out-why-they-lost/645224/869 "2013-06-29T00:11:12Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > That bolded part could be the answer. The abortion issue might ultimately be “resolved” not by disagreement fading, but by interest fading. Which amounts to final victory for the pro-choice side. And bodes ill for any pols campaigning on anti-abortion. The pro-choice side has already won on policy. Abortion will be legal in the first trimester nearly everywhere, even if Roe is overturned, which is unlikely. When Republicans legislate on abortion at a time of economic anxiety, I want to pull my hair out. So I agree with that much, Republicans shouldn’t be making it as high a priority as they are. ---
**Author:** ![samclem](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a9a28c/32.png) [@samclem](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/samclem)\ **Post date:** [June 29, 2013, 12:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-the-republicans-ever-figure-out-why-they-lost/645224/870 "2013-06-29T00:14:26Z")
> [@adaher](#): > > Republicans want an election system people can trust. You can’t trust a system in which James O’Keefe can get Eric Holder’s ballot and vote in his name. As a hypothetical, how would O’keefe get that ballot and vote in Holder’s name? ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [June 29, 2013, 12:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-the-republicans-ever-figure-out-why-they-lost/645224/871 "2013-06-29T00:19:55Z")
> [@adaher](#): > > Just as with voter ID laws, some purges are illegal. It all depends on how you go about it and the courts almost always get involved. In the case of the 2012 voter purge, it was completely justified, and Florida beat the federal government in the lawsuit. Mainly because the voter purge could have been accurate had the federal government shared its database. Plus, purges are required by law under the Help America Vote Act. > > Republicans want an election system people can trust. You can’t trust a system in which James O’Keefe can get Eric Holder’s ballot and vote in his name. Yet another spin point coming from your discredited sources. > **[O'Keefe's Video On "Eric Holder's Ballot": Still Not Voter Fraud](https://www.mediamatters.org/breitbart-news/okeefes-video-eric-holders-ballot-still-not-voter-fraud)** > [@](#): > > The video’s accompanying blog post on [Breitbart.com](http://Breitbart.com) claims that Project Veritas has “proven” that “voter fraud is easy and simple – and may be increasingly common in the absence of voter ID laws.” A Daily Caller article on the video claimed that Holder “could have himself been disenfranchised by white men because there is no federal voter ID law to protect voters in D.C.” from fraud. > > This video doesn’t prove any of these things. What it shows is a man coming close to committing a serious crime. But even if the man had fraudulently cast a vote under Eric Holder’s name, D.C. and federal laws provide a number of protections against fraudulent votes. > > First of all, if the imposter had fraudulently cast Holder’s ballot, and the real Eric Holder then had shown up to vote and been told his name was already crossed off the list, the real Holder almost certainly could have still voted. Under the Help America Vote Act of 2002, any voter who is told by an “election official” that he or she is “not eligible to vote” must be allowed to “cast a provisional ballot.” > > As a Washington Post blog post about the O’Keefe video states: > > ``` > For instance, if a fraudster actually did go vote for Holder, and then Holder himself went to vote later in the day, he would discover he could no longer cast a regular ballot but would have to fill out a special ballot. > > Special ballots are always counted, regardless of whether they could affect the outcome of the election ... Each special ballot is subject to inspection and challenge from the candidates. During that process, election officials can look at public records -- including signatures on poll books and voter registration forms -- to determine whether a ballot is genuine. If fraud is suspected, the Board of Elections and Ethics can refer the case to federal prosecutors for further investigation. > > ``` ---
**Author:** ![Snowboarder\_Bo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/snowboarder_bo/32/229_2.png) [@Snowboarder\_Bo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snowboarder_Bo)\ **Post date:** [June 29, 2013, 12:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-the-republicans-ever-figure-out-why-they-lost/645224/872 "2013-06-29T00:21:05Z")
> [@adaher](#): > > It is you who are showing ignorance. In order to work, you need ID, so your reference to the working poor is nonsense. No, you are wrong. Since you’ve now made the same assertion twice, show us your cite; prove that what you wrote is true. ---
**Author:** ![adaher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@adaher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adaher)\ **Post date:** [June 29, 2013, 12:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-the-republicans-ever-figure-out-why-they-lost/645224/873 "2013-06-29T00:22:39Z")
> [@samclem](#): > > As a hypothetical, how would O’keefe get that ballot and vote in Holder’s name? He said, “I’m Eric Holder”, got the ballot, and all he would have had to do then was vote. He didn’t, because he didn’t want to be on film actually committing voter fraud, but he did show how easy it was. ---
**Author:** ![adaher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@adaher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adaher)\ **Post date:** [June 29, 2013, 12:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-the-republicans-ever-figure-out-why-they-lost/645224/874 "2013-06-29T00:23:58Z")
> [@Snowboarder\_Bo](#): > > No, you are wrong. Since you’ve now made the same assertion twice, show us your cite; prove that what you wrote is true. A cite for proving that you need ID to work? > **[Form I-9](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/I-9_%28form%29)** > > Form I-9, officially the Employment Eligibility Verification, is a United States Citizenship and Immigration Services form. Mandated by the Immigration Reform and Control Act of 1986, it is used to verify the identity and legal authorization to work of all paid employees in the United States. All U.S. employers must ensure proper completion of Form I-9 for each individual they hire for employment in the United States. > The Immigration Reform and Control Act of 1986 (IRCA) required employers to ve... This is basic stuff, how can you not already be familiar with this? You do work, don’t you? ---
**Author:** ![fumster](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/e9c0ed/32.png) [@fumster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/fumster)\ **Post date:** [June 29, 2013, 12:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-the-republicans-ever-figure-out-why-they-lost/645224/875 "2013-06-29T00:25:42Z")
> [@adaher](#): > > Republicans want an election system people can trust. You can’t trust a system in which James O’Keefe can get Eric Holder’s ballot and vote in his name. Nothing makes me trust the system more than when the appointee of a candidate’s brother will not recount an election decided by a few hundred votes in which people were mistakenly (or intentionally) thrown off the voting rolls because their name was similar to that of a felon and then the Supreme court votes along party lines to halt a recount. Unless of course, it’s where the maker of voting machines is a large contributor to one of the parties. ---
**Author:** ![adaher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@adaher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adaher)\ **Post date:** [June 29, 2013, 12:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-the-republicans-ever-figure-out-why-they-lost/645224/876 "2013-06-29T00:28:09Z")
Those are good points, which is why the Help America Vote law was passed, regulating these things. Now, even though Democrats voted for purges, they oppose them. I guess voting rolls are never supposed to be updated. ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [June 29, 2013, 12:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-the-republicans-ever-figure-out-why-they-lost/645224/877 "2013-06-29T00:30:03Z")
> [@adaher](#): > > The pro-choice side has already won on policy. Abortion will be legal in the first trimester nearly everywhere, even if Roe is overturned, which is unlikely. Not correct, in a number of states, statutes enacted prior to the decision of Roe 1973 remain on the books, and even others that put more restrictions are just in the books, also waiting. > [@adaher](#): > > When Republicans legislate on abortion at a time of economic anxiety, I want to pull my hair out. So I agree with that much, Republicans shouldn’t be making it as high a priority as they are. Get ready to get bald. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [June 29, 2013, 12:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-the-republicans-ever-figure-out-why-they-lost/645224/878 "2013-06-29T00:32:24Z")
> [@adaher](#): > > He said, “I’m Eric Holder”, got the ballot, and all he would have had to do then was vote. He didn’t, because he didn’t want to be on film actually committing voter fraud, but he did show how easy it was. No he did not, the reality is that they chickened out and they missed the followup, that is that when Holder was going to vote then the gig would be out. ---
**Author:** ![Snowboarder\_Bo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/snowboarder_bo/32/229_2.png) [@Snowboarder\_Bo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snowboarder_Bo)\ **Post date:** [June 29, 2013, 12:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-the-republicans-ever-figure-out-why-they-lost/645224/879 "2013-06-29T00:32:44Z")
> [@adaher](#): > > A cite for proving that you need ID to work? > > [Form I-9 - Wikipedia](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/I-9_%28form%29) > > This is basic stuff, how can you not already be familiar with this? You do work, don’t you? From your cite: > [@adaher's cite](#): > > The I-9 is not required for unpaid volunteers or for contractors. Hmmm. So in fact, an ID is not necessary for all work. A person can be a “contractor” and perform work and get paid without any ID at all. Guess what? Your own cite proves you wrong. This is what I meant earlier about how conservatives’ view of the world doesn’t actually comport with reality. They think things _are_ the way they want them to be, but things aren’t that way at all. ---
**Author:** ![adaher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@adaher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adaher)\ **Post date:** [June 29, 2013, 12:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-the-republicans-ever-figure-out-why-they-lost/645224/880 "2013-06-29T00:39:44Z")
In order to be a contractor, you gave your ID to the company contracting you out. Or, if you are in business for yourself, you gave your ID to the local regulatory body in order to get your business license. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-the-republicans-ever-figure-out-why-they-lost/645224.md?page=43) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-the-republicans-ever-figure-out-why-they-lost/645224.md?page=45)