# Will The Republicans ever figure out why they lost? **URL:** \ **Category:** Politics & Elections\ **Created:** [December 26, 2012, 9:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-the-republicans-ever-figure-out-why-they-lost/645224 "2012-12-26T21:33:49Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 65
**Author:** ![adaher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@adaher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adaher)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2013, 8:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-the-republicans-ever-figure-out-why-they-lost/645224/1281 "2013-07-11T20:07:27Z")
> [@Ulfreida](#): > > Let me turn this thing around again too – whether or not it is moral to expect parents with starving children not to steal bread, it is certainly stupid, so why not feed their children, instead of punishing them? I think this is, for liberals, why Republicans sound, not “upright and responsible” but stupid, as well as cruel, vindictive, cold-hearted, mean, and securely wedded to the idea of punishing people for being poor, punishing people for being hungry, punishing people for being a different color or gender than them, basically their answer to every social ill is punishment. Doesn’t matter if it worsens the problem. Punishment is their one-whip-fits-all. If most theft in America was poor people stealing bread, you might have something there. That is not the case. Bread shelves aren’t getting cleaned out, electronics and jewelry stores get cleaned out and cars get stolen. People in this country steal luxuries, and they really should stop doing that. And it’s not like liberals can claim moral high ground here. They demand mercy and help for criminals, unless they are delinquent taxpayers or racists, in which case they are uncompromising and support only punishment. ---
**Author:** ![wonky](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wonky/32/393_2.png) [@wonky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wonky)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2013, 8:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-the-republicans-ever-figure-out-why-they-lost/645224/1282 "2013-07-11T20:22:22Z")
> [@Ulfreida](#): > > Doesn’t matter if it worsens the problem. That’s the crux for me, well, worsens or does nothing. A solution that does nothing or worsens the problem is not a solution. A solution that ignores why the problem exists in the first place is not a solution. A solution that waves away all of the human error and need and want and acts as if we’re chemicals or, worse, as if telling us a rule makes the pain and suffering and need go away is offensive. ---
**Author:** ![adaher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@adaher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adaher)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2013, 8:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-the-republicans-ever-figure-out-why-they-lost/645224/1283 "2013-07-11T20:30:54Z")
Then you should support an immigration bill that actually solves the problem. The current bill, according to the CBO, leaves 5 million illegal immigrants in limbo in the next 10 years. What public support there is for the bill is based on us not having to deal with this again. The Senate bill fails in that regard. There is absolutely no reason for Republicans to support this bill, at least as far as politics goes. An immigration bill that didn’t leave illegal immigration a gaping sore might be worth supporting from a political perspective. One that keeps the issue alive, as this one does(and I believe that’s intentional), is a worse option than the current system. ---
**Author:** ![wonky](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wonky/32/393_2.png) [@wonky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wonky)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2013, 8:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-the-republicans-ever-figure-out-why-they-lost/645224/1284 "2013-07-11T20:36:11Z")
> [@adaher](#): > > Then you should support an immigration bill that actually solves the problem. You were defending Mitt Romney’s offensive, stupid, ignorant, and laughable suggestion. I gave my opinion on that, and why calling it offensive, stupid, ignorant, and laughable isn’t the same thing as saying “Open the borders, Richard!” That’s the extent of my interest in having an immigration debate. ---
**Author:** ![adaher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@adaher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adaher)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2013, 8:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-the-republicans-ever-figure-out-why-they-lost/645224/1285 "2013-07-11T20:39:14Z")
It may have been useless, but it’s only offensive if you believe it’s wrong for people here illegally to leave. Do you support the deportation of those here illegally who will not qualify for legalization, or don’t you? And, wouldn’t it be even better if they left on their own, realizing they will never be legalized because of a criminal record or some other reason? Finally, I’m not sure how immigration reform is a humanitarian issue. Illegals have homes, they’d just rather be here as a preference. Those for whom it actually is a humanitarian problem to return home qualify for asylum. The rest, they’d just rather be here than there. Millions of their countrymen disagree, they’d rather be there than here. So I fail to see how it’s cruel, or even punishment, to require them to simply go back home. ---
**Author:** ![wonky](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wonky/32/393_2.png) [@wonky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wonky)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2013, 8:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-the-republicans-ever-figure-out-why-they-lost/645224/1286 "2013-07-11T20:45:29Z")
> [@adaher](#): > > It may have been useless, but it’s only offensive if you believe it’s wrong for people here illegally to leave. I’ve already explained why I feel it’s offensive. You can choose to engage with that or not, but an “Is too! Is not!” exchange does not interest me. ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2013, 8:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-the-republicans-ever-figure-out-why-they-lost/645224/1287 "2013-07-11T20:49:14Z")
> [@adaher](#): > > legalization comes the second the bill is signed. Enforcement comes over a ten year period. > > The green cards are contingent on soft enforcement metrics. Then your position is unrealistic, but that was the point I was making on why that legalization part is not mentioned by you, because any poll that concentrates just on asking about enforcement is misleading the people that reads the ¨just enforcement¨ polls. And you still are wrong on your say so about what Hispanics think about the issue, so you are even more wrong, if you think no one noticed that skip, it is not my problem then that you do like to gain the fame of you being \*\*certifiably \*\*wrong often. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![adaher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@adaher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adaher)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2013, 9:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-the-republicans-ever-figure-out-why-they-lost/645224/1288 "2013-07-11T21:00:25Z")
> [@jsgoddess](#): > > I’ve already explained why I feel it’s offensive. You can choose to engage with that or not, but an “Is too! Is not!” exchange does not interest me. You explained poorly. Expecting people to obey the law is not normally offensive, correct? ---
**Author:** ![wonky](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wonky/32/393_2.png) [@wonky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wonky)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2013, 9:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-the-republicans-ever-figure-out-why-they-lost/645224/1289 "2013-07-11T21:01:57Z")
> [@adaher](#): > > You explained poorly. I’ll survive. ---
**Author:** ![adaher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@adaher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adaher)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2013, 9:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-the-republicans-ever-figure-out-why-they-lost/645224/1290 "2013-07-11T21:02:21Z")
> [@GIGObuster](#): > > Then your position is unrealistic, but that was the point I was making on why that legalization part is not mentioned by you, because any poll that concentrates just on asking about enforcement is misleading the people that reads the ¨just enforcement¨ polls. > > And you still are wrong on your say so about what Hispanics think about the issue, so you are even more wrong, if you think no one noticed that skip, it is not my problem then that you do like to gain the fame of you being \*\*certifiably \*\*wrong often. 🙂 You posted a poll from a progressive Latino group. I have no objection to that, I take all polls seriously and I took yours seriously. But it’s moronic in the extreme to say that I’m just wrong about how Hispanics feel about immigration when I posted a Rasmussen poll and that’s considered too partisan to be taken seriously. You posted a partisan poll, it’s a valid data point, but it does not prove me wrong, any more than me posting a Numbers USA poll would prove you wrong. ---
**Author:** ![adaher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@adaher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adaher)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2013, 9:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-the-republicans-ever-figure-out-why-they-lost/645224/1291 "2013-07-11T21:03:26Z")
> [@jsgoddess](#): > > I’ll survive. More likely you’ll just be unclear about how you really feel about the issue. Saying that people should voluntarily obey the law is only offensive if you feel the law is offensive. ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2013, 9:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-the-republicans-ever-figure-out-why-they-lost/645224/1292 "2013-07-11T21:10:28Z")
> [@adaher](#): > > You posted a poll from a progressive Latino group. I have no objection to that, I take all polls seriously and I took yours seriously. But it’s moronic in the extreme to say that I’m just wrong about how Hispanics feel about immigration when I posted a Rasmussen poll and that’s considered too partisan to be taken seriously. > > You posted a partisan poll, it’s a valid data point, but it does not prove me wrong, any more than me posting a Numbers USA poll would prove you wrong. Again, I thought it was a joke when you guys ignore time and time lines, I´m not surprised anymore. So, so much for your ¨taking anything seriously¨ point, you are wrong for misleading others into assuming that your cite poll was more up to date, and my point that reporting that on a previous poll immigration does not appear as a priority does not mean that it is not important. So, once again, enjoy your fame of being certifiably wrong, 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![wonky](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wonky/32/393_2.png) [@wonky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wonky)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2013, 9:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-the-republicans-ever-figure-out-why-they-lost/645224/1293 "2013-07-11T21:13:06Z")
> [@adaher](#): > > More likely you’ll just be unclear about how you really feel about the issue. Actually, I’m unclear why I would have the conversation with you, especially in this thread. I’ve said what I intended to say in direct response to your original point and I just don’t find you engaging enough for a long conversation. There is a [new Gallup poll](http://www.gallup.com/poll/163475/passing-new-immigration-laws-important-americans.aspx?utm_source=alert&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=syndication&utm_content=morelink&utm_term=Politics) on immigration, for those who want to fight over it. Of particular interest, perhaps: > [@](#): > > Americans Prioritize Dealing With Illegal Immigrants Already in U.S. > > The Senate immigration bill, at 1,200 pages, adopts a comprehensive approach to reforming the immigration code. But 55% of Americans say if they had to choose, the main focus of the U.S. government should be in dealing with illegal immigrants currently in the country rather than halting the flow of illegal immigrants. While this is consistent with findings in 2012, it is a reversal from previous years, when Americans leaned toward stopping the flow of illegal immigrants. ---
**Author:** ![adaher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@adaher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adaher)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2013, 9:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-the-republicans-ever-figure-out-why-they-lost/645224/1294 "2013-07-11T21:25:48Z")
> [@GIGObuster](#): > > Again, I thought it was a joke when you guys ignore time and time lines, I´m not surprised anymore. > > So, so much for your ¨taking anything seriously¨ point, you are wrong for misleading others into assuming that your cite poll was more up to date, and my point that reporting that on a previous poll immigration does not appear as a priority does not mean that it is not important. > > So, once again, enjoy your fame of being certifiably wrong, 🙂 And enjoy your need to attack the poster rather than the post. The fact that you feel the need to attempt to discredit me says more about you than it does me. You posted a partisan poll in an attempt to prove me wrong, and now you claim I misled everyone about how recent my poll was. I never claimed it was recent, or old. A year old poll is not outdated. If it is, then Obama’s mandate is almost up. ---
**Author:** ![adaher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@adaher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adaher)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2013, 9:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-the-republicans-ever-figure-out-why-they-lost/645224/1295 "2013-07-11T21:27:55Z")
> [@jsgoddess](#): > > Actually, I’m unclear why I would have the conversation with you, especially in this thread. I’ve said what I intended to say in direct response to your original point and I just don’t find you engaging enough for a long conversation. > > There is a [new Gallup poll](http://www.gallup.com/poll/163475/passing-new-immigration-laws-important-americans.aspx?utm_source=alert&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=syndication&utm_content=morelink&utm_term=Politics) on immigration, for those who want to fight over it. Of particular interest, perhaps: Since your poll is interesting, I’ll move on to that.🙂 First, maybe Obama is changing minds. I’m a big believer in the power of persuasion, and if Obama is winning the national debate, more power to him. I hope he doesn’t succeed, but I can take losing on that basis. What I can’t take is losing because Congress rushed through a law to prevent said debate from occurring. Which thankfully won’t happen thanks to the Republicans. Second, notice how there’s no ethnic gap on the big question. Whites, blacks, and Hispanics feel pretty much the same way, regardless of the question a particular poll asks. When a poll says they favor enforcement, there’s no ethnic gap, and when a poll says they favor legalization, there is also no ethnic gap. However, what’s also interesting is that there is a significant ethnic gap on some specifics. African-Americans are the least likely to support guest workers. Hispanics don’t seem nearly as thrilled about businesses having to verify legal status. That seems to be an issue that even white liberals bang the drum on: go after the employers, go after the employers. Well, Hispanics don’t seem to like that as much. ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2013, 9:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-the-republicans-ever-figure-out-why-they-lost/645224/1296 "2013-07-11T21:38:29Z")
> [@adaher](#): > > And enjoy your need to attack the poster rather than the post. The fact that you feel the need to attempt to discredit me says more about you than it does me. You posted a partisan poll in an attempt to prove me wrong, and now you claim I misled everyone about how recent my poll was. I never claimed it was recent, or old. A year old poll is not outdated. If it is, then Obama’s mandate is almost up. First, you dared other poster to find a poll that you claimed it did not exist, **you were spectacularly wrong**. BTW that poll was ordered by a progressive group but unless you have a cite of the partisanship affecting the research then your point is dumb. And you are funny. Attacking you? The impression I had when you told a poster early if he enjoyed being wrong, and using a smilie to made it better, was still uncalled for, I just looked for the information that shows how wrong you are even on that attack. So, you remain wrong, wrong, wrong, wrong. Again, not my problem if you like to still depend on the right wing sources of information that get you constantly burned in discussions. ---
**Author:** ![adaher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@adaher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adaher)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2013, 9:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-the-republicans-ever-figure-out-why-they-lost/645224/1297 "2013-07-11T21:42:54Z")
> [@GIGObuster](#): > > First, you dared other poster to find a poll that you claimed it did not exist, **you were spectacularly wrong**. BTW that poll was ordered by a progressive group but unless you have a cite of the partisanship affecting the research then your point is dumb. Your poll does not election related. That’s what this whole thread is about. I wouldn’t think that need to be explained. The polls I cited were what Hispanic voters cared most about heading into the 2012 election. When they start polling for 2014, you can show me polls demonstrating that Hispanics rank immigration ahead of the economy and jobs. > [@](#): > > And you are funny. Attacking you? The impression I had when you told a poster early if he enjoyed being wrong, and using a smilie to made it better, was still uncalled for, I just looked for the information that shows how wrong you are even on that attack. You must have missed that I was only doing that because the poster said I was always wrong. Which you really shouldn’t do while being, you know, wrong. ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2013, 10:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-the-republicans-ever-figure-out-why-they-lost/645224/1298 "2013-07-11T22:01:21Z")
> [@adaher](#): > > Your poll does not election related. That’s what this whole thread is about. I wouldn’t think that need to be explained. The polls I cited were what Hispanic voters cared most about heading into the 2012 election. When they start polling for 2014, you can show me polls demonstrating that Hispanics rank immigration ahead of the economy and jobs. Yeah, like if your pedantic excuse could explain away your failure of a dare. What you posted was: ¨Show me a single poll showing immigration rating high on the list of issues Hispanic voters care about.¨ Stop digging. > [@adaher](#): > > You must have missed that I was only doing that because the poster said I was always wrong. Which you really shouldn’t do while being, you know, wrong. Well, you were wrong anyhow. The current poll shows that after the election was over then the priorities have changed and immigration reform is now a priority. ---
**Author:** ![DigitalC](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ebca7d/32.png) [@DigitalC](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DigitalC)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2013, 10:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-the-republicans-ever-figure-out-why-they-lost/645224/1299 "2013-07-11T22:13:09Z")
Self deportation doesn’t mean “we hope they will follow the law and go away”, self deportation means “we are going to make their lives so horrible that going back to their shitty country is the better alternative”. ---
**Author:** ![wonky](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wonky/32/393_2.png) [@wonky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wonky)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2013, 10:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-the-republicans-ever-figure-out-why-they-lost/645224/1300 "2013-07-11T22:16:11Z")
> [@DigitalC](#): > > Self deportation doesn’t mean “we hope they will follow the law and go away”, self deportation means “we are going to make their lives so horrible that going back to their shitty country is the better alternative”. Yeah, you have a point. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-the-republicans-ever-figure-out-why-they-lost/645224.md?page=64) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-the-republicans-ever-figure-out-why-they-lost/645224.md?page=66)