# Will The Republicans ever figure out why they lost? **URL:** \ **Category:** Politics & Elections\ **Created:** [December 26, 2012, 9:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-the-republicans-ever-figure-out-why-they-lost/645224 "2012-12-26T21:33:49Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 91
**Author:** ![adaher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@adaher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adaher)\ **Post date:** [July 27, 2013, 1:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-the-republicans-ever-figure-out-why-they-lost/645224/1801 "2013-07-27T01:11:28Z")
If only Democrats would be as up front about their socialist tendencies as the liberal Dopers. We’d never have to ask why we lost elections because we’d never lose. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [July 27, 2013, 1:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-the-republicans-ever-figure-out-why-they-lost/645224/1802 "2013-07-27T01:25:06Z")
> [@adaher](#): > > And the removal of the stigma against receiving help was politically motivated, it wasn’t based on compassion. It was politically motivated in the sense of serving a political agenda, itself based on compassion; not in the sense of winning the poor as a voting bloc (there are always more votes to be found in the middle class anyway). Remember, LBJ signed the Voting Rights Act **knowing** it would lose his party the South for a generation; but he never hesitated. ---
**Author:** ![Astral\_Rejection](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/258eb7/32.png) [@Astral\_Rejection](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Astral_Rejection)\ **Post date:** [July 27, 2013, 2:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-the-republicans-ever-figure-out-why-they-lost/645224/1803 "2013-07-27T02:16:13Z")
> [@adaher](#): > > While it keeps people from starving, it also destroys their pride and their ability to care for themselves. I’d actually still like to discuss this point. I think you missed my earlier post, which was probably easy to do, as it was right before another long post by someone else. Here’s what I said: > [@](#): > > > [@adaher](#): > > > > That’s a lack of empathy. Would either you or he say that these policies have helped poor people? It’s not the waste. It’s the destruction of their ability to care for themselves. > > Let’s talk about this, and specifically focus on your assertion that what I call assistance actually destroys a human being’s ability to care for themselves. I’m going to pose a hypothetical benefactor of social security, a program I believe to be very necessary for Americans. > > In my hypothetical, we have a 16-year-old boy. Smart and ambitious, this boy takes a job at McDonalds, plays multiple sports at his high school, and has big dreams for the future. Unfortunately, his father dies, and his grandmother (who suffers from Alzheimer’s) moves in so that our hypothetical boy and his mother can care for her. > > Social security survivor’s benefits come in, and our hypothetical boy saves them for college. He then goes to college, gets a great education, and works to achieve his dreams. > > Is he a taker? Has a public assistance program crippled his ability to succeed for himself? I hope not; I just described Paul Ryan’s early life, and he’s been very successful. In some ways, I’d attribute his success to a program that enabled him to succeed. Without money for college, might he be where he is today? Or might he be stuck in a dead-end job, through no fault of his own beyond bad luck? > > Another example, closer to home: my car, an old used car on its last legs, died two days after I accepted my first full-time job out of college. Had it died perhaps a few months earlier, I would have been out of luck. No paycheck to buy a new car, no transportation. Now, in my case I’m sure I could have gotten a loan, or help from my family, so I’m exaggerating the issue. But many people, especially our most vulnerable citizens, do not have that luxury. No parents? Tough luck, no job. Bad or non-existent credit? Sorry. A veteran from Iraq with no job history and no car? Good luck, soldier. > > One of the biggest public assistane programs in US history was the GI Bill, enabling veterans from World War 2 to go to college, an option their parents and grandparents never had. I’d argue that our middle class is built on top of that decision, educating an enabling a whole generation of young men. Were they takers? Was their ability to succeed crippled by assistance? Of course not. ---
**Author:** ![running\_coach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/running_coach/32/15836_2.png) [@running\_coach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/running_coach)\ **Post date:** [July 27, 2013, 2:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-the-republicans-ever-figure-out-why-they-lost/645224/1804 "2013-07-27T02:32:40Z")
Paul Ryan is no friend of Social Security, he would really like to see it privatized. He also doesn’t like some of the newer benefits that have been added in past years. [From here.](http://articles.latimes.com/2013/mar/12/business/la-fi-mo-paul-ryan-social-security-20130312) > [@](#): > > He also doesn’t mention that some of the increase in beneficiaries over the years is due to new benefits enacted by Congress, **such as stipends for school- and college-age children of deceased workers. Among the Americans who received those benefits as youngsters? Paul Ryan.** So another Republican “Fuck you, I got mine”. ---
**Author:** ![Typo\_Knig](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/cdc98d/32.png) [@Typo\_Knig](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Typo_Knig)\ **Post date:** [July 27, 2013, 2:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-the-republicans-ever-figure-out-why-they-lost/645224/1805 "2013-07-27T02:57:22Z")
I think there’s a structual problem in this thread. Non-republicans point out areas they disagree with the GOP as examples why the GOP lost the last POTUS elections. GOP supporters then feel the need to defend their party’s positions. Much back-and-forth ensues, but no progress. I think a better way for the GOPers in this thread to consider this topic is that it’s meant to be constructive criticism, even if it’s not always delivered in the most constructive way. Think of this as a job-performance review, delivered by a socially clueless manager. There is useful information for how to improve, but you need to pick through the delivery style that rubs you the wrong bleeping way. With that in mind, what can or should the GOP do to win POTUS elections in the near future? The electoral map is tilted against the GOP for the 2016 and 2020 elections, and may further tilt against them beyond that. But the predicency is not out of reach - how to get there? If you consider US Senators to be national offices, how can the GOP get better electoral success there? Had the GOP won the 5 winnable Senate seats they lost in the last 2 election cycles, both the House and Senate would both be in GOP hands. The would have totally changed the dynamic of the Obama administration. What can/should the GOP do to win more Senate seats? There has been discussion of these points in this thread, but not in the most dispassionate way. Republican-leaning Dopers, the electorate has spoken and your party is not doing as well as it could at the Presidential and Senatorial level. What do you want to do about it? If it’s nothing, then I’ll sit back and enjoy the Clinton/Warren administration. ---
**Author:** ![user\_hostile](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/user_hostile/32/474_2.png) [@user\_hostile](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/user_hostile)\ **Post date:** [July 27, 2013, 3:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-the-republicans-ever-figure-out-why-they-lost/645224/1806 "2013-07-27T03:24:35Z")
> [@WillFarnaby](#): > > Secession is preferable to suicide. > > No I don’t support secession as of this moment. I do believe that secession should be allowed in some way so it can serve as a check on abuses by the federal government, but I would think it should require the suport of a large portion of the population of the state, county, or municipality in question. What kind of abuses are we talking about? Perhaps you should declare the causes which would impel them to the separation. ---
**Author:** ![adaher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@adaher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adaher)\ **Post date:** [July 27, 2013, 3:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-the-republicans-ever-figure-out-why-they-lost/645224/1807 "2013-07-27T03:50:13Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > It was politically motivated in the sense of serving a political agenda, itself based on compassion; not in the sense of winning the poor as a voting bloc (there are always more votes to be found in the middle class anyway). Remember, LBJ signed the Voting Rights Act **knowing** it would lose his party the South for a generation; but he never hesitated. That’s a legend, and a convenient one. I doubt LBJ knew any such thing, given that Republicans voted for it more reliably than Democrats, and the South took decades more to be lost. If the Democrats had truly been principled, they would have tried to increase the black vote back when they voted GOP. ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [July 27, 2013, 3:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-the-republicans-ever-figure-out-why-they-lost/645224/1808 "2013-07-27T03:57:49Z")
> [@adaher](#): > > That’s a legend, and a convenient one. I doubt LBJ knew any such thing, given that Republicans voted for it more reliably than Democrats, and the South took decades more to be lost. If the Democrats had truly been principled, they would have tried to increase the black vote back when they voted GOP. It is not a legend, it was reported then: > **[An epochal moment for civil rights in a single day: 11 June 1963 | Gary Younge](https://www.theguardian.com/world/2013/jun/11/civil-rights-anniversary-11-june-1963)** > > Fifty years ago, three seminal events – a standoff with Alabama's governor, a presidential speech and the murder of Medgar Evers – left an indelible mark on American history, writes Gary Younge > [@](#): > > Veteran journalist Bill Moyers wrote that when Johnson passed the Civil Rights Act a year later, “he was euphoric’”: > > ``` > "But late that very night, I found him in a melancholy mood as he lay in bed reading the bulldog edition of the Washington Post with headlines celebrating the day. I asked him what was troubling him. 'I think we just delivered the south to the Republican party for a long time to come,' he said." > > ``` ---
**Author:** ![adaher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@adaher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adaher)\ **Post date:** [July 27, 2013, 3:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-the-republicans-ever-figure-out-why-they-lost/645224/1809 "2013-07-27T03:58:48Z")
> [@Typo\_Knig](#): > > I think there’s a structual problem in this thread. Non-republicans point out areas they disagree with the GOP as examples why the GOP lost the last POTUS elections. GOP supporters then feel the need to defend their party’s positions. Much back-and-forth ensues, but no progress. > > I think a better way for the GOPers in this thread to consider this topic is that it’s meant to be constructive criticism, even if it’s not always delivered in the most constructive way. Think of this as a job-performance review, delivered by a socially clueless manager. There is useful information for how to improve, but you need to pick through the delivery style that rubs you the wrong bleeping way. > > With that in mind, what can or should the GOP do to win POTUS elections in the near future? The electoral map is tilted against the GOP for the 2016 and 2020 elections, and may further tilt against them beyond that. But the predicency is not out of reach - how to get there? > > If you consider US Senators to be national offices, how can the GOP get better electoral success there? Had the GOP won the 5 winnable Senate seats they lost in the last 2 election cycles, both the House and Senate would both be in GOP hands. The would have totally changed the dynamic of the Obama administration. What can/should the GOP do to win more Senate seats? > > There has been discussion of these points in this thread, but not in the most dispassionate way. Republican-leaning Dopers, the electorate has spoken and your party is not doing as well as it could at the Presidential and Senatorial level. What do you want to do about it? > > If it’s nothing, then I’ll sit back and enjoy the Clinton/Warren administration. Great post. It’s true, the GOP is underperforming, actually underperforming even in the House. I posted earlier how there are something like 65 more GOP-leaning seats than Democratic leaning seats. So even in the House we could be doing better. As for why, there are many factors. Red state Democrats are pretty good at distancing themselves from the national party, and if they actually vote in DC the way they campaign back home, they can keep their seats for a very long time. Blue state Republicans have far less success, when they even try. And if they do, nowadays they get primaried. I think Tea Partiers are making a mistake there. We should primary the politicians who are moderate due to a lack of principles, like Arlen Specter and Charlie Crist. But genuine moderates like Olympia Snowe, Scott Brown, and Mike Castle are a good thing for the party. There’s also the brand problem. I keep pushing back against criticism of the republican platform because they simply do not lose over the platform. They lose because they misgoverned at the national level from 2001-2008, and even before then came off as angry frothers rather than happy warriors. Back during the Bush years, Democrats explained away their losses as due to the complexity of explaining what they believed. But I say Democrats have a natural advantage there: they care. Voters think that Democrats look out for people like them. Republicans are the ones who have to explain why the government shouldn’t do many of the things it does, and unless your name is Ronald Reagan, you end up coming off as just mean. Specifically in 2012, the biggest factor contributing to Republican defeat was Democrats capitalizing on gaffes that furthered the “war on women” narrative. I don’t think that will work for Democrats more than once though. ---
**Author:** ![adaher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@adaher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adaher)\ **Post date:** [July 27, 2013, 4:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-the-republicans-ever-figure-out-why-they-lost/645224/1810 "2013-07-27T04:02:52Z")
> [@Astral\_Rejection](#): > > I’d actually still like to discuss this point. I think you missed my earlier post, which was probably easy to do, as it was right before another long post by someone else. Here’s what I said: You are citing an example of someone temporarily on assistance who lifts himself up by his bootstraps. No one would argue that it kills initiative in every person, but it does that for more people than it helps. Try it, sit around collecting for a few months and then try to get back to working. It takes pretty solid willpower to get your work ethic back once you stop doing it for awhile. Especially if the job doesn’t improve your standard of living much compared to the dole. Using the system to go to college is a good way to go. Just collecting for awhile and then going back to a low level job, much tougher for people to do. ---
**Author:** ![jayjay](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jayjay/32/6765_2.png) [@jayjay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jayjay)\ **Post date:** [July 27, 2013, 4:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-the-republicans-ever-figure-out-why-they-lost/645224/1811 "2013-07-27T04:04:25Z")
> [@adaher](#): > > Specifically in 2012, the biggest factor contributing to Republican defeat was Democrats capitalizing on gaffes that furthered the “war on women” narrative. I don’t think that will work for Democrats more than once though. Really? You don’t see anything being done recently by GOP legislatures as furthering the “war on women” narrative. Nothing? Really truly? ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [July 27, 2013, 4:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-the-republicans-ever-figure-out-why-they-lost/645224/1812 "2013-07-27T04:04:49Z")
> [@adaher](#): > > Great post. It’s true, the GOP is underperforming, actually underperforming even in the House. I posted earlier how there are something like 65 more GOP-leaning seats than Democratic leaning seats. So even in the House we could be doing better. > > As for why, there are many factors. Red state Democrats are pretty good at distancing themselves from the national party, and if they actually vote in DC the way they campaign back home, they can keep their seats for a very long time. Blue state Republicans have far less success, when they even try. And if they do, nowadays they get primaried. I think Tea Partiers are making a mistake there. We should primary the politicians who are moderate due to a lack of principles, like Arlen Specter and Charlie Crist. But genuine moderates like Olympia Snowe, Scott Brown, and Mike Castle are a good thing for the party. > > There’s also the brand problem. I keep pushing back against criticism of the republican platform because they simply do not lose over the platform. They lose because they misgoverned at the national level from 2001-2008, and even before then came off as angry frothers rather than happy warriors. Back during the Bush years, Democrats explained away their losses as due to the complexity of explaining what they believed. But I say Democrats have a natural advantage there: they care. Voters think that Democrats look out for people like them. Republicans are the ones who have to explain why the government shouldn’t do many of the things it does, and unless your name is Ronald Reagan, you end up coming off as just mean. > > Specifically in 2012, the biggest factor contributing to Republican defeat was Democrats capitalizing on gaffes that furthered the “war on women” narrative. I don’t think that will work for Democrats more than once though. That only works by conveniently forgetting the \*\*continuing \*\*reprehensible votes regarding abortion done in congress and in other red states. ---
**Author:** ![adaher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@adaher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adaher)\ **Post date:** [July 27, 2013, 4:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-the-republicans-ever-figure-out-why-they-lost/645224/1813 "2013-07-27T04:07:22Z")
there have been a couple, like in North Dakota, although in North Dakota Republicans are in no danger of losing the womens’ vote over pro-life bills. Now the media and national Democrats can try to make a national issue of what is going on in a small very conservative state if they want to, but let’s be clear: winning that way just means they used the media skillfully, it doesn’t mean the pro-life plank of the GOP platform is a loser. With a closely divided electorate on the abortion issue, it wouldn’t make sense to have two pro-choice parties anyway. ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [July 27, 2013, 4:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-the-republicans-ever-figure-out-why-they-lost/645224/1814 "2013-07-27T04:20:59Z")
> [@adaher](#): > > there have been a couple, like in North Dakota, although in North Dakota Republicans are in no danger of losing the womens’ vote over pro-life bills. Now the media and national Democrats can try to make a national issue of what is going on in a small very conservative state if they want to, but let’s be clear: winning that way just means they used the media skillfully, it doesn’t mean the pro-life plank of the GOP platform is a loser. With a closely divided electorate on the abortion issue, it wouldn’t make sense to have two pro-choice parties anyway. And that only works by forgetting that we discussed already that that division crumbles a lot when the electorate is informed of the draconian extra limitations that Republicans are coming with (This BTW is applicable to the points of bad governance and stupid mistakes coming from Republicans), many independents already consider the limits on abortion the supreme court came a few years ago are enough. ---
**Author:** ![Steve\_MB](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steve_mb/32/5339_2.png) [@Steve\_MB](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steve_MB)\ **Post date:** [July 27, 2013, 4:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-the-republicans-ever-figure-out-why-they-lost/645224/1815 "2013-07-27T04:23:50Z")
> [@WillFarnaby](#): > > I have conceded your claim that blue states are net payers of taxes while red states are net takers. That’s doesnt support your claim that conservatives are net takers and liberals are net payers. Er, you know what the terms “blue states” and “red states” signify, right? ---
**Author:** ![YogSothoth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/8edcca/32.png) [@YogSothoth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/YogSothoth)\ **Post date:** [July 27, 2013, 2:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-the-republicans-ever-figure-out-why-they-lost/645224/1816 "2013-07-27T14:39:33Z")
> [@WillFarnaby](#): > > Or seceded. :smack: You’re one of THOSE people? > [@adaher](#): > > If only Democrats would be as up front about their socialist tendencies as the liberal Dopers. We’d never have to ask why we lost elections because we’d never lose. And if only Republicans would be up front about their hatred of women, their hatred of the poor, the middle class, gays, Muslims or any denomination that doesn’t agree with them, immigrants, children, veterans, scientists, etc. There wouldn’t even be a Republican party then ---
**Author:** ![WillFarnaby](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/willfarnaby/32/514_2.png) [@WillFarnaby](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WillFarnaby)\ **Post date:** [July 27, 2013, 3:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-the-republicans-ever-figure-out-why-they-lost/645224/1817 "2013-07-27T15:08:38Z")
> [@Steve\_MB](#): > > Er, you know what the terms “blue states” and “red states” signify, right? You know that doesn’t mean that red states are homogenous blobs of conservatives and blue states are homogenous blobs of liberals. I swear some of these characters do not exist in real life. I have proven in simple mathematical terms how the two claims are not the same. ---
**Author:** ![adaher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@adaher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adaher)\ **Post date:** [July 27, 2013, 3:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-the-republicans-ever-figure-out-why-they-lost/645224/1818 "2013-07-27T15:12:14Z")
> [@YogSosoth](#): > > :smack: > > You’re one of THOSE people? > > And if only Republicans would be up front about their hatred of women, their hatred of the poor, the middle class, gays, Muslims or any denomination that doesn’t agree with them, immigrants, children, veterans, scientists, etc. There wouldn’t even be a Republican party then Oh yeah, we just hate people, that’s why we laud successful people regardless of their race, sex, etc. We hate underachievers, that much is probably true. ---
**Author:** ![user\_hostile](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/user_hostile/32/474_2.png) [@user\_hostile](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/user_hostile)\ **Post date:** [July 27, 2013, 3:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-the-republicans-ever-figure-out-why-they-lost/645224/1819 "2013-07-27T15:33:01Z")
> [@adaher](#): > > Oh yeah, we just hate people, that’s why we laud successful people regardless of their race, sex, etc. > > We hate underachievers, that much is probably true. Please provide a description of “underachiever”. ---
**Author:** ![running\_coach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/running_coach/32/15836_2.png) [@running\_coach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/running_coach)\ **Post date:** [July 27, 2013, 3:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-the-republicans-ever-figure-out-why-they-lost/645224/1820 "2013-07-27T15:34:43Z")
> [@adaher](#): > > Oh yeah, we just hate people, that’s why we laud successful people regardless of their race, sex, etc. > > We hate underachievers, that much is probably true. No one like underachievers. Some just don’t apply the brush so broadly. Or with such inhumanity. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-the-republicans-ever-figure-out-why-they-lost/645224.md?page=90) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-the-republicans-ever-figure-out-why-they-lost/645224.md?page=92)