# Will The Republicans ever figure out why they lost? **URL:** \ **Category:** Politics & Elections\ **Created:** [December 26, 2012, 9:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-the-republicans-ever-figure-out-why-they-lost/645224 "2012-12-26T21:33:49Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 96
**Author:** ![Robot\_Arm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/robot_arm/32/18280_2.png) [@Robot\_Arm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Robot_Arm)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2013, 2:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-the-republicans-ever-figure-out-why-they-lost/645224/1901 "2013-07-29T14:59:09Z")
> [@adaher](#): > > The motive is irrelevant. Markets work despite the players not having the purest of motives. Government, on the other hand, can have the purest motives and yet do horrible things. Or more often, just stupid and ineffective things, like the now 40-year quest to reduce dependent on oil, which I’m sure has only failed because not enough money has been thrown at the problem. As **Gyrate** said, the motive is relevant. If there was more profit to be made by polluting, companies would pollute. That one case may show the opposite is irrelevant. The free market hasn’t fixed anything. Any comment on the rest of my post? The Space Shuttle was not 25 years after Gemini. ---
**Author:** ![Gyrate](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gyrate/32/3588_2.png) [@Gyrate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gyrate)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2013, 3:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-the-republicans-ever-figure-out-why-they-lost/645224/1902 "2013-07-29T15:11:43Z")
> [@Try2B\_Comprehensive](#): > > And if private investors aren’t flocking to solar and related industries, how do you explain [this](http://www.altenergystocks.com/archives/2013/07/energy_efficiency_and_solar_lead_alternative_energy_stocks_skyward.html)? Also, with regard to government promotion of alternative energy sources, it’s worth noting that the US government is not here trying to fund the creation of something that no one else is doing > [@](#): > but rather playing catch-up with China which has, with its own government funding, spent the last decade developing a green energy industry (wind turbines in particular) while the Bush administration treated it as a non-issue. ---
**Author:** ![WillFarnaby](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/willfarnaby/32/514_2.png) [@WillFarnaby](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WillFarnaby)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2013, 3:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-the-republicans-ever-figure-out-why-they-lost/645224/1903 "2013-07-29T15:39:06Z")
> [@Gyrate](#): > > Also, with regard to government promotion of alternative energy sources, it’s worth noting that the US government is not here trying to fund the creation of something that no one else is doing but rather playing catch-up with China which has, with its own government funding, spent the last decade developing a green energy industry (wind turbines in particular) while the Bush administration treated it as a non-issue. Is it really necessary to “catch up” with China? Can we not simply buy wind turbines from China? We benefit from them developing an expertise in green energy, just as they benefit from us developing technology here. The idea that the Bush administration of all things should have been centrally planning energy policy is laughable. The idea that any administration should be centrally planning energy policy is archaic. ---
**Author:** ![WillFarnaby](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/willfarnaby/32/514_2.png) [@WillFarnaby](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WillFarnaby)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2013, 3:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-the-republicans-ever-figure-out-why-they-lost/645224/1904 "2013-07-29T15:45:39Z")
> [@Gyrate](#): > > Sorry - where have you been for the past six or seven years? _Well-regulated_ markets work. Unfettered capitalism is volatile and destructive in its boom-and-bust cycles. “Unfettered capitalism” would include a banking sector not subsidized by FDIC and implicit bailout guarantees. Now would you like to tell me where we have unfettered capitalism so I can move there? ETA: Also i would prefer an unfettered capitalism that doesn’t have employees moonlighting as “public servants” in the highest positions of the government. ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2013, 3:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-the-republicans-ever-figure-out-why-they-lost/645224/1905 "2013-07-29T15:55:07Z")
> [@WillFarnaby](#): > > Is it really necessary to “catch up” with China? Can we not simply buy wind turbines from China? We benefit from them developing an expertise in green energy, just as they benefit from us developing technology here. > > The idea that the Bush administration of all things should have been centrally planning energy policy is laughable. The idea that any administration should be centrally planning energy policy is archaic. > [@](#): > > Lindsey Graham: “Every day that we delay trying to find a price for carbon is a day that China uses to dominate the green economy. > > … > > That’s the NY Times reporting Saturday from Davos, “Race Is on to Develop Green, Clean Technology.” And they have another terrific piece today on the front page from Tianjin, “China Leading Global Race to Make Clean Energy.” > > Politics aside, what is most amazing about the emergence of the conservative senator from South Carolina as a leader on climate and clean energy is that he is clearly better at messaging on this than most progressives, possibly even including the president. Why? > > Graham understands the core issues and is not afraid to be blunt about them — see Lindsey Graham: “The idea of not pricing carbon, in my view, means you’re not serious about energy independence. The odd thing is you’ll never have energy independence until you clean up the air, and you’ll never clean up the air until you price carbon.” > > Some 20 million jobs — and trillions in wealth — by 2030 are at stake, and America may give up without much of a fight. We only have one hope of matching China, as I (and others) have said again and again (see “The only way to win the clean energy race is to pass the clean energy bill“). > > The one-time stimulus bill had nearly $100 billion of federal clean energy investment that generated some $100 billion of private sector clean energy investment. But as Graham understands, we can only come close to that level of U.S. investment each year with a rising price for carbon . > > That should be obvious to all, but few in the traditional media really get it besides columnist Tom Friedman. Of course, tea partiers called Republican senator Granham a traitor and are looking to replace him in 2014. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2013, 3:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-the-republicans-ever-figure-out-why-they-lost/645224/1906 "2013-07-29T15:55:44Z")
> [@](#): > > …Now would you like to tell me where we have unfettered capitalism so I can move there?.. Somalia. Here’s your hat, what’s your hurry? ---
**Author:** ![WillFarnaby](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/willfarnaby/32/514_2.png) [@WillFarnaby](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WillFarnaby)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2013, 4:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-the-republicans-ever-figure-out-why-they-lost/645224/1907 "2013-07-29T16:02:44Z")
> [@GIGObuster](#): > > Of course, tea partiers called Republican senator Granham a traitor and are looking to replace him in 2014. Am i supposed to take advice from Lindsey Graham now? I guess we should be [authorizing an attack on Iran](http://www.wltx.com/news/article/242923/2/Graham-Congress-Should-Approve-Military-Strike-Against-Iran?odyssey=tab%7Ctopnews%7Cbc%7Clarge)in the next few months too right? > [@elucidator](#): > > Somalia. Here’s your hat, what’s your hurry? Care to make the case that Somalia is a capitalist society with property rights? Of course that may take more than one sentence, and probably little opportunities for attempted humor. ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2013, 4:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-the-republicans-ever-figure-out-why-they-lost/645224/1908 "2013-07-29T16:08:14Z")
> [@WillFarnaby](#): > > “Unfettered capitalism” would include a banking sector not subsidized by FDIC and implicit bailout guarantees. Now would you like to tell me where we have unfettered capitalism so I can move there? Well, if you get a time machine, you can go to Germany in the 30’s. No bailouts and in 1931 there were runs on German and Austrian banks and several of them folded. You do not want to know (or you are happily ignorant) of what the resulting levels of unemployment and the discontent generated, and what that led to. ---
**Author:** ![BobLibDem](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/boblibdem/32/3149_2.png) [@BobLibDem](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BobLibDem)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2013, 4:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-the-republicans-ever-figure-out-why-they-lost/645224/1909 "2013-07-29T16:14:32Z")
> [@WillFarnaby](#): > > “Unfettered capitalism” would include a banking sector not subsidized by FDIC and implicit bailout guarantees. Now would you like to tell me where we have unfettered capitalism so I can move there? > > ETA: Also i would prefer an unfettered capitalism that doesn’t have employees moonlighting as “public servants” in the highest positions of the government. Like it or not, you must live in the real world. There is no nation that meets your pure libertarian ideal nor will there ever be. We figured out long ago that there needs to be some restraint and government control over banking or else risk disastrous consequences. ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2013, 4:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-the-republicans-ever-figure-out-why-they-lost/645224/1910 "2013-07-29T16:14:56Z")
> [@WillFarnaby](#): > > Am i supposed to take advice from Lindsey Graham now? I guess we should be [authorizing an attack on Iran](http://www.wltx.com/news/article/242923/2/Graham-Congress-Should-Approve-Military-Strike-Against-Iran?odyssey=tab%7Ctopnews%7Cbc%7Clarge)in the next few months too right? Reaching for fallacies is the best sign of having no good arguments or reply to what the senator said. ---
**Author:** ![WillFarnaby](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/willfarnaby/32/514_2.png) [@WillFarnaby](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WillFarnaby)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2013, 4:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-the-republicans-ever-figure-out-why-they-lost/645224/1911 "2013-07-29T16:16:13Z")
> [@GIGObuster](#): > > Well, if you get a time machine, you can go to Germany in the 30’s. No bailouts and in 1931 there were runs on German and Austrian banks and several of them folded. You do not want to know (or you are happily ignorant) of what the resulting levels of unemployment and the discontent generated, and what that led to. Right. What the German economy needed in 1931 was another round of money printing! Or would draconian tax increases have been your method for paying for those bailouts of your? Lol think first bud. ---
**Author:** ![WillFarnaby](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/willfarnaby/32/514_2.png) [@WillFarnaby](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WillFarnaby)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2013, 4:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-the-republicans-ever-figure-out-why-they-lost/645224/1912 "2013-07-29T16:19:01Z")
> [@GIGObuster](#): > > Reaching for fallacies is the best sign of having no good arguments or reply to what the senator said. The senator said nothing of substance. More importantly he did not address my claim that we benefit from Chinese green energy developments. Your quote of him did nothing to address my claim. I question your grasp of the division of labor, and its benefits. ---
**Author:** ![Robot\_Arm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/robot_arm/32/18280_2.png) [@Robot\_Arm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Robot_Arm)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2013, 4:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-the-republicans-ever-figure-out-why-they-lost/645224/1913 "2013-07-29T16:19:11Z")
> [@WillFarnaby](#): > > Care to make the case that Somalia is a capitalist society with property rights? I think you have the right to as much property as you can defend there. ---
**Author:** ![WillFarnaby](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/willfarnaby/32/514_2.png) [@WillFarnaby](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WillFarnaby)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2013, 4:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-the-republicans-ever-figure-out-why-they-lost/645224/1914 "2013-07-29T16:20:36Z")
> [@BobLibDem](#): > > Like it or not, you must live in the real world. There is no nation that meets your pure libertarian ideal nor will there ever be. We figured out long ago that there needs to be some restraint and government control over banking or else risk disastrous consequences. You figured out long ago that the most profitable entities in the economy should be subsidized by taxpayers, gotcha. ---
**Author:** ![WillFarnaby](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/willfarnaby/32/514_2.png) [@WillFarnaby](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WillFarnaby)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2013, 4:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-the-republicans-ever-figure-out-why-they-lost/645224/1915 "2013-07-29T16:22:09Z")
> [@Robot\_Arm](#): > > I think you have the right to as much property as you can defend there. Unless the US government funds your adversaries. The Somalian economy is hobbled by US intervention even more directly than our own. ---
**Author:** ![Gyrate](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gyrate/32/3588_2.png) [@Gyrate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gyrate)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2013, 4:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-the-republicans-ever-figure-out-why-they-lost/645224/1916 "2013-07-29T16:30:30Z")
> [@WillFarnaby](#): > > “Unfettered capitalism” would include a banking sector not subsidized by FDIC and implicit bailout guarantees. A “well-regulated market” would have something different from the piecemeal and ineffectual regulatory structure the US currently has too. And what’s your plan to keep the banks from losing everyone’s money when they go bust without the FDIC in place? ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2013, 4:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-the-republicans-ever-figure-out-why-they-lost/645224/1917 "2013-07-29T16:33:18Z")
> [@WillFarnaby](#): > > The senator said nothing of substance. More importantly he did not address my claim that we benefit from Chinese green energy developments. Your quote of him did nothing to address my claim. I question your grasp of the division of labor, and its benefits. That there are benefits was granted, that you do not what to deal with the also ongoing reductions in support of newer technologies and local development has to be avoided by people like you. ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2013, 4:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-the-republicans-ever-figure-out-why-they-lost/645224/1918 "2013-07-29T16:37:07Z")
> [@WillFarnaby](#): > > Right. What the German economy needed in 1931 was another round of money printing! Or would draconian tax increases have been your method for paying for those bailouts of your? Lol think first bud. Of course that shows more ignorance, the borrowing was one of the reasons why they got in the problem in the first place, as many point out the increase in taxes and the reduction in local investing was a problem, but once again, from the beginning one of the main problems was to not invest in development when the recession hit. ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2013, 4:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-the-republicans-ever-figure-out-why-they-lost/645224/1919 "2013-07-29T16:38:53Z")
> [@WillFarnaby](#): > > You figured out long ago that the most profitable entities in the economy should be subsidized by taxpayers, gotcha. The Republicans figured out a long time ago, regardless of how profitable they get, fossil fuel companies still get their subsidies. ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2013, 4:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-the-republicans-ever-figure-out-why-they-lost/645224/1920 "2013-07-29T16:50:03Z")
BTW claiming that the senator said nothing of substance points to your position as one that denies that there is any problem with human induced global warming, is that right? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-the-republicans-ever-figure-out-why-they-lost/645224.md?page=95) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-the-republicans-ever-figure-out-why-they-lost/645224.md?page=97)