# Will the Republicans keep beating the abortion drum after this year's election? **URL:** \ **Category:** Politics & Elections\ **Created:** [November 7, 2012, 2:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-the-republicans-keep-beating-the-abortion-drum-after-this-years-election/640214 "2012-11-07T14:01:44Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 14
**Author:** ![adaher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@adaher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adaher)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2013, 10:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-the-republicans-keep-beating-the-abortion-drum-after-this-years-election/640214/261 "2013-07-07T22:57:44Z")
So if you ban elective late term abortions, most abortions will be for health reasons? Shocking. ---
**Author:** ![running\_coach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/running_coach/32/15836_2.png) [@running\_coach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/running_coach)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2013, 11:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-the-republicans-keep-beating-the-abortion-drum-after-this-years-election/640214/262 "2013-07-07T23:01:28Z")
> [@adaher](#): > > So if you ban elective late term abortions, most abortions will be for health reasons? Shocking. Since third trimester abortions are illegal in 36 states except for health reasons(which must be verified by a doctor) what did you expect? ---
**Author:** ![Lobohan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lobohan/32/79_2.png) [@Lobohan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lobohan)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2013, 11:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-the-republicans-keep-beating-the-abortion-drum-after-this-years-election/640214/263 "2013-07-07T23:04:17Z")
> [@adaher](#): > > Then let’s find out why late term abortions are done in Europe and see if sex education reduces the proportion of late term abortions that are elective. > > Oh wait, elective late term abortion is illegal in most of Europe! Kinda like the death penalty. Or, if you cared to think about it, sex education and easy access to early abortions means there is no need for late abortions. ---
**Author:** ![EverwonderWhy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/ee59a6/32.png) [@EverwonderWhy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EverwonderWhy)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2013, 11:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-the-republicans-keep-beating-the-abortion-drum-after-this-years-election/640214/264 "2013-07-07T23:08:12Z")
> [@adaher](#): > > Nice try, but the first study only looks at terminations for abnormalities, which means 100% of the test group got abortions for fetal abnormalities. Duh. And the second link just references the first link. But you’re right, I should look harder, so I found this: > > According to Guttmacher, most late term abortions are elective: > > [Late termination of pregnancy - Wikipedia](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Late-term_abortion) > > 71% Woman didn’t recognize she was pregnant or misjudged gestation > 48% Woman found it hard to make arrangements for abortion > 33% Woman was afraid to tell her partner or parents > 24% Woman took time to decide to have an abortion > 8% Woman waited for her relationship to change > 8% Someone pressured woman not to have abortion > 6% Something changed after woman became pregnant > 6% Woman didn’t know timing is important > 5% Woman didn’t know she could get an abortion > 2% A fetal problem was diagnosed late in pregnancy > 11% Other You quote wikipedia citing Guttmacher survey performed _in 1987_ on post 16 week terminations, you know early second trimester (for which you’ve been called out before, so you know these are not accurate late term statistics) Nice try, indeed. Fascinating. Why not just go to [Guttmacher](http://www.guttmacher.org/statecenter/spibs/spib_PLTA.pdf) yourself? According to [Guttmacher](http://www.guttmacher.org/pubs/fb_induced_abortion.html) post 21 week (date from last menstrual period) terminations are about 1.5% of total abortions. ---
**Author:** ![adaher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@adaher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adaher)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2013, 11:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-the-republicans-keep-beating-the-abortion-drum-after-this-years-election/640214/265 "2013-07-07T23:09:05Z")
What we’re debating here is the relative popularity of moving the limit to 20 weeks, the point at which fetuses feel pain. I say that’s a popular measure. ---
**Author:** ![running\_coach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/running_coach/32/15836_2.png) [@running\_coach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/running_coach)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2013, 11:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-the-republicans-keep-beating-the-abortion-drum-after-this-years-election/640214/266 "2013-07-07T23:13:15Z")
> [@adaher](#): > > What we’re debating here is the relative popularity of moving the limit to\*\* 20 weeks, the point at which fetuses feel pain.\*\* I say that’s a popular measure. Cite? [24 weeks.](http://www.motherjones.com/politics/2013/06/science-house-abortion-ban-fetal-pain) > [@](#): > > But Anand is an outlier. A 2005 paper in the Journal of the American Medical Association surveyed the medical literature and found little evidence to support his conclusions. There is an established body of evidence that finds that fetuses start developing the biological pathways related to pain sensation at this stage of gestation, but there is not enough evidence to suggest that they can actually experience pain as we do. The majority of the scientific literature on the subject finds that the brain connections required to feel pain are not formed until at least 24 weeks. ---
**Author:** ![EverwonderWhy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/ee59a6/32.png) [@EverwonderWhy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EverwonderWhy)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2013, 11:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-the-republicans-keep-beating-the-abortion-drum-after-this-years-election/640214/267 "2013-07-07T23:15:19Z")
> [@adaher](#): > > So if you ban elective late term abortions, most abortions will be for health reasons? Shocking. Except most late term _bans_ are not for health reasons. When you read [the reasons](http://www.meandmyobg.com/2013/07/texas-acog-statement-opposing-sb-5-hegar-hb-60-laubenberg-2/)why most major medical associations are opposed to 20 week restrictions it is because they do not include adequate health protections for the mother or fetal abnormality. In fact, many late term bans have tried to include language that allows physicians to LIE to their patients about fetal prognosis. Rick Santorum would like to ban fetal genetic testing all together since (shockingly:rolleyes:) it leads to more 20+ week terminations. ---
**Author:** ![Lobohan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lobohan/32/79_2.png) [@Lobohan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lobohan)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2013, 11:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-the-republicans-keep-beating-the-abortion-drum-after-this-years-election/640214/268 "2013-07-07T23:15:39Z")
> [@adaher](#): > > What we’re debating here is the relative popularity of moving the limit to 20 weeks, the point at which fetuses feel pain. I say that’s a popular measure. Again, you’re wrong. Seriously, bro, doesn’t being wrong about so much make you question your opinions? Even a little? > **[Prenatal perception](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neonatal_perception)** > > Prenatal perception is the study of the extent of somatosensory and other types of perception during pregnancy. In practical terms, this means the study of fetuses; none of the accepted indicators of perception are present in embryos. Studies of this type inform the abortion controversy, along with certain related pieces of legislation in countries affected by that debate. As of 2022, there is not any scientific consensus on whether a fetus can feel pain. > Numerous studies have found evidence ind... > [@Wikipedia](#): > > Scientific research generally indicates that the fetus is incapable of feeling pain until at least the 24th week.[15] Many pro-life activists strongly believe in the ability of a fetus to perceive pain, and have introduced legislation in line with this belief. However, fetal pain is not a major legal issue in the debate about abortion, and has not been a deciding factor in any US Supreme Court decision, including the 1973 Roe v. Wade. ---
**Author:** ![EverwonderWhy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/ee59a6/32.png) [@EverwonderWhy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EverwonderWhy)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2013, 11:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-the-republicans-keep-beating-the-abortion-drum-after-this-years-election/640214/269 "2013-07-07T23:23:35Z")
> [@adaher](#): > > What we’re debating here is the relative popularity of moving the limit to 20 weeks, the point at which fetuses feel pain. I say that’s a popular measure. There is no evidence of fetal pain perception at 20 weeks. This is a myth propagated by the anti-choice, anti-science crowd, by either using junk science or misleading fetal gestation dating, like post fertilization when the most common method used by OB/GYN’s is date of last menstrual period (LMP). [Statement From the Texas Division of American Congress of Obstetricians and Gynecologists (ACOG)](http://www.meandmyobg.com/2013/07/texas-acog-statement-opposing-sb-5-hegar-hb-60-laubenberg-2/) > [@](#): > > **Terminology** > > The use of appropriate, standard terminology is essential. > > “Embryo” is the proper term to use for the 2nd-8th week of pregnancy; “fetus” is the correct term to use until birth. > > “Post-fertilization” is rarely used outside of in vitro fertilization. The medical community uses the first day of the last menstrual period (LMP) to date pregnancies. Post-fertilization is not an appropriate substitute. > > **Fetal Pain** > No credible scientific evidence exists of fetal pain perception pre-viability. The medical profession published a rigorous scientific review of evidence on fetal pain in the Journal of the American Medical Association (JAMA) in 2005. Fetal perception of pain is not confirmed prior to the 3rd trimester. > > **Fetal Viability** > Most obstetrician-gynecologists understand fetal viability as occurring near 24 weeks gestation utilizing LMP dating. Supporters of fetal pain present misleading evidence about fetal viability (especially in using post-fertilization age, instead of LMP dating) implying high survival rates among neonates that are overwhelmingly pre-viable. > > **Fetal Anomalies** > Many fetal anomalies can be diagnosed before 20 weeks; others are not diagnosed until around 20 weeks. CSSB 5 provides an inadequate exception for “severe fetal abnormalities.” This exception and is overly vague and puts into statute how a doctor should exercise medical judgment > > **Life of the Mother** > SB 5/HB 60 fails to entirely protect women for whom pregnancy poses serious health risks. Requiring doctors to wait until a woman faces immediate injury or death, indefensibly jeopardizes a patient’s health and places physicians in a difficult position. Physicians facing the legal penalties may be less likely to intervene early and instead compromise a patient’s health by waiting until a woman’s condition deteriorates and becomes life threatening or severely debilitating. ---
**Author:** ![Kolak\_of\_Twilo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kolak_of_twilo/32/73_2.png) [@Kolak\_of\_Twilo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kolak_of_Twilo)\ **Post date:** [July 8, 2013, 12:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-the-republicans-keep-beating-the-abortion-drum-after-this-years-election/640214/270 "2013-07-08T00:06:34Z")
> [@Lobohan](#): > > Again, you’re wrong. Seriously, bro, doesn’t being wrong about so much make you question your opinions? Even a little? I’ve said it before but I’ll say it again - In our friend’s world facts have little to no meaning when they conflict with what he believes. That’s it. ---
**Author:** ![Zakalwe](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/zakalwe/32/270_2.png) [@Zakalwe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zakalwe)\ **Post date:** [July 8, 2013, 2:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-the-republicans-keep-beating-the-abortion-drum-after-this-years-election/640214/271 "2013-07-08T02:47:42Z")
> [@adaher](#): > > Most Americans are opposed to late term abortion. Are you talking about the 20-week ban? Since when is half-way through something “late”. I guess if you’re a man over 35 you’re in late-stage life? How can you tell who supports what when the GOP constantly creates catchy little inaccurate and/or misleading labels? ---
**Author:** ![adaher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@adaher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adaher)\ **Post date:** [July 8, 2013, 3:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-the-republicans-keep-beating-the-abortion-drum-after-this-years-election/640214/272 "2013-07-08T03:47:13Z")
Let’s see, at 20 weeks a woman can feel it kick and it looks just like a baby only smaller. [http://pregnancymomandbaby.com/pregnancy-week-by-week/what-does-a-fetus-look-like-at-20-weeks/](http://pregnancymomandbaby.com/pregnancy-week-by-week/what-does-a-fetus-look-like-at-20-weeks/) Yeah, I’d say that’s late. ---
**Author:** ![running\_coach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/running_coach/32/15836_2.png) [@running\_coach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/running_coach)\ **Post date:** [July 8, 2013, 4:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-the-republicans-keep-beating-the-abortion-drum-after-this-years-election/640214/273 "2013-07-08T04:08:23Z")
> [@adaher](#): > > Let’s see, at 20 weeks a woman can feel it kick and it looks just like a baby only smaller. > > [http://pregnancymomandbaby.com/pregnancy-week-by-week/what-does-a-fetus-look-like-at-20-weeks/](http://pregnancymomandbaby.com/pregnancy-week-by-week/what-does-a-fetus-look-like-at-20-weeks/) > > Yeah, I’d say that’s late. So you’re confusing the woman feeling the kick with the fetus feeling pain. Gotcha. ---
**Author:** ![Zakalwe](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/zakalwe/32/270_2.png) [@Zakalwe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zakalwe)\ **Post date:** [July 8, 2013, 4:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-the-republicans-keep-beating-the-abortion-drum-after-this-years-election/640214/274 "2013-07-08T04:30:46Z")
> [@adaher](#): > > Yeah, I’d say that’s late. Well I wouldn’t. The fetus is not viable at 20 weeks. Call it what it is, a mid-term abortion ban. Then see what people think of it. If you can’t start from honest terminology, then maybe there’s something wrong with your position. If you can and the majority still support it, then maybe you’ll have something (although I would personally disagree as I don’t think freedoms should be subject to simple popular vote). Until then though, you’re using misleading terminology. Would you refer to the middle of the 4th inning as late in a baseball game or would you call it the middle of the game? ---
**Author:** ![Onomatopoeia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/onomatopoeia/32/4145_2.png) [@Onomatopoeia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Onomatopoeia)\ **Post date:** [July 8, 2013, 3:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-the-republicans-keep-beating-the-abortion-drum-after-this-years-election/640214/275 "2013-07-08T15:40:10Z")
> [@joebuck20](#): > > **Will the Republicans keep beating the abortion drum after this year’s election?** What the Hell else have they been doing? It’s all abortion almost all of the time with that party lately, with a little homophobia, xenophobia, and racism sprinkled in. I chortle when I hear Republicans, even on this board, say “It’s not the GOP that keeps bringing up abortion.” Are they kidding me? How many pieces of abortion legislation have been drafted since the 2010 midterms? ---
**Author:** ![wonky](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wonky/32/393_2.png) [@wonky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wonky)\ **Post date:** [July 8, 2013, 3:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-the-republicans-keep-beating-the-abortion-drum-after-this-years-election/640214/276 "2013-07-08T15:46:19Z")
> [@Onomatopoeia](#): > > What the Hell else have they been doing? It’s all abortion almost all of the time with that party lately, with a little homophobia, xenophobia, and racism sprinkled in. > > I chortle when I hear Republicans, even on this board, say “It’s not the GOP that keeps bringing up abortion.” Are they kidding me? How many pieces of abortion legislation have been drafted since the 2010 midterms? But, see, that’s not beating the abortion drum. That’s just responding to their constituents who elected them to fight the deficit. ---
**Author:** ![Onomatopoeia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/onomatopoeia/32/4145_2.png) [@Onomatopoeia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Onomatopoeia)\ **Post date:** [July 8, 2013, 3:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-the-republicans-keep-beating-the-abortion-drum-after-this-years-election/640214/277 "2013-07-08T15:51:59Z")
> [@jsgoddess](#): > > But, see, that’s not beating the abortion drum. That’s just responding to their constituents who elected them to fight the deficit. Funny that, eh? They pretty much all campaigned on the deficit and jobs during the midterms, and then, once elected, got collective amnesia. I don’t think I have seen so much abortion legislation in my entire lifetime\* than has been drafted in the last 3 years. ETA: \*That’s hyperbole to mean ‘a lot’ for professional pedants like \*\*Bricker \*\*. ---
**Author:** ![Lobohan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lobohan/32/79_2.png) [@Lobohan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lobohan)\ **Post date:** [July 8, 2013, 3:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-the-republicans-keep-beating-the-abortion-drum-after-this-years-election/640214/278 "2013-07-08T15:59:52Z")
> [@adaher](#): > > Let’s see, at 20 weeks a woman can feel it kick and it looks just like a baby only smaller. > > [http://pregnancymomandbaby.com/pregnancy-week-by-week/what-does-a-fetus-look-like-at-20-weeks/](http://pregnancymomandbaby.com/pregnancy-week-by-week/what-does-a-fetus-look-like-at-20-weeks/) > > Yeah, I’d say that’s late. I can feel a breeze, is that a conscious human? Are windfarms worse than the Holocaust? ---
**Author:** ![Omg\_a\_Black\_Conservative](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/7ba0ec/32.png) [@Omg\_a\_Black\_Conservative](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Omg_a_Black_Conservative)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2013, 5:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-the-republicans-keep-beating-the-abortion-drum-after-this-years-election/640214/279 "2013-07-09T05:34:32Z")
> [@Onomatopoeia](#): > > Funny that, eh? They pretty much all campaigned on the deficit and jobs during the midterms, and then, once elected, got collective amnesia. I don’t think I have seen so much abortion legislation in my entire lifetime\* than has been drafted in the last 3 years. > > ETA: \*That’s hyperbole to mean ‘a lot’ for professional pedants like \*\*Bricker \*\*. I’ve always wondered how this works. When Democrats win, it means they have a mandate to do whatever the hell they want. When Republicans win, it means they can only do those things Democrats like. ---
**Author:** ![Onomatopoeia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/onomatopoeia/32/4145_2.png) [@Onomatopoeia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Onomatopoeia)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2013, 1:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-the-republicans-keep-beating-the-abortion-drum-after-this-years-election/640214/280 "2013-07-09T13:19:48Z")
> [@Omg\_a\_Black\_Conservative](#): > > I’ve always wondered how this works. When Democrats win, it means they have a mandate to do whatever the hell they want. When Republicans win, it means they can only do those things Democrats like. What the Hell does that have to do with anything I said? Listen, if you’re not going to respond to what I actually say, then don’t respond to my posts at all. I don’t have time for your nonsense. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-the-republicans-keep-beating-the-abortion-drum-after-this-years-election/640214.md?page=13) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-the-republicans-keep-beating-the-abortion-drum-after-this-years-election/640214.md?page=15)