# Will the school voucher issue cause African Americans to switch from Dem to Rep? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [June 28, 2002, 8:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-the-school-voucher-issue-cause-african-americans-to-switch-from-dem-to-rep/116449 "2002-06-28T20:21:29Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![december](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/838e76/32.png) [@december](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/december)\ **Post date:** [June 28, 2002, 8:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-the-school-voucher-issue-cause-african-americans-to-switch-from-dem-to-rep/116449/1 "2002-06-28T20:21:29Z")
The portion that the New York Times printed of Justice Thomas’s [concurring opinion on vouchers](http://www.nytimes.com/2002/06/28/national/28VTEX.html?pagewanted=4) was a remarkaboe panegyric about the advantages of vouchers: > [@](#): > > Frederick Douglass once said that “education . . . means emancipation. It means light and liberty. It means the uplifting of the soul of man into the glorious light of truth, the light by which men can only be made free.” Today many of our inner-city public schools deny emancipation to urban minority students. Despite this Court’s observation nearly 50 years ago in Brown v. Board of Education…urban children have been forced into a system that continually fails them. Thomas seems to imply that school choice is an emancipation and a fulfillment of the promise of Brown v. Board of Education. These are strong words. Milwaukee Alderman [Terrance Herron just switched to Republican over this issue (among others).](http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/news/707769/posts): > [@](#): > > One reason Herron gave for joining the GOP is that he felt the Democrats took Black voters for granted. He also said that he agreed with the Republicans on a number of issues, especially school choice. So, what will be the political fallout of the school choice issue? ---
**Author:** ![december](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/838e76/32.png) [@december](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/december)\ **Post date:** [June 28, 2002, 8:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-the-school-voucher-issue-cause-african-americans-to-switch-from-dem-to-rep/116449/2 "2002-06-28T20:23:54Z")
The full title was supposed to be, **Will the school voucher issue cause African Americans to switch from Democrat to Republican** Mods, is there a way to fix this? ---
**Author:** ![minty\_green](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f6c823/32.png) [@minty\_green](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/minty_green)\ **Post date:** [June 28, 2002, 9:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-the-school-voucher-issue-cause-african-americans-to-switch-from-dem-to-rep/116449/3 "2002-06-28T21:04:41Z")
> [@](#): > > Will the school voucher issue cause African Americans to switch from Democrat to Republican? Why would it? The Democrats and the Republicans have had their positions staked out on this issue for years, yet the only two black folk you can point to as examples of this imminent switch are Clarence Thomas and some guy from Milwaukee? > [@](#): > > So, what will be the political fallout of the school choice issue? Hand-wringing, rhetorical overkill, union-bashing, religion-bashing–all the usual. And I suppose a few more limited voucher programs will be implemented here and there, but to no great success because ain’t nobody going to put enough money into voucher programs to make them a legitimate choice for most kids in crappy schools. Oh, and most private schools won’t even take them even if the parents can make up the difference out of their own pocket. Vouchers are the right-wing’s version of communism: lovely in theory, totally unworkable in practice. ---
**Author:** ![Stuffy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/f17d59/32.png) [@Stuffy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stuffy)\ **Post date:** [June 28, 2002, 9:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-the-school-voucher-issue-cause-african-americans-to-switch-from-dem-to-rep/116449/4 "2002-06-28T21:42:18Z")
Sigh! Here we go again. Just because one black person things school vouchers are ok, does not mean all black people do. Witness, I am a black man who does not support school vouchers, neither does my wife. Now you have a sample size of 4, with 50% in support and 50% against. Now if IRC you work with numbers, what happens when you apply those figures across the rest of the remaining black populace? ---
**Author:** ![december](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/838e76/32.png) [@december](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/december)\ **Post date:** [June 28, 2002, 9:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-the-school-voucher-issue-cause-african-americans-to-switch-from-dem-to-rep/116449/5 "2002-06-28T21:53:34Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Stuffy \* Now if IRC you work with numbers, what happens when you apply those figures across the rest of the remaining black populace? > [@](#): > > According to the study, "a large majority (69 percent) of black elected officials oppose vouchers, while a large majority (60 percent) of the black public support vouchers. [http://reason.com/hod/sm061501.shtml](http://reason.com/hod/sm061501.shtml) ---
**Author:** ![Stuffy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/f17d59/32.png) [@Stuffy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stuffy)\ **Post date:** [June 28, 2002, 10:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-the-school-voucher-issue-cause-african-americans-to-switch-from-dem-to-rep/116449/6 "2002-06-28T22:18:07Z")
I see no study at your link only an offer to sell one, however I’ll counter your non link with this. The results of [Prop 38](http://www.cnn.com/ELECTION/2000/results/CA/) A handy population breakdown for [Oakland, CA](http://ured.com/oakland.htm) (where I live). While you’re there note that figure for registered republicans (of whom we can assume as a majority voted for the measure). And here’s the result by [city](http://vote2000.ss.ca.gov/Returns/prop/mapR038.htm) You see that city showing 78% voting NO, I’ll give you three guesses as to which city that is, and your first two don’t count. My data and yours appear to conflict. ---
**Author:** ![SuaSponte](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/67e7ee/32.png) [@SuaSponte](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SuaSponte)\ **Post date:** [June 28, 2002, 10:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-the-school-voucher-issue-cause-african-americans-to-switch-from-dem-to-rep/116449/7 "2002-06-28T22:30:13Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Stuffy \* > \*\*Sigh! Here we go again. Just because one black person things school vouchers are ok, does not mean all black people do. Witness, I am a black man who does not support school vouchers, neither does my wife. Now you have a sample size of 4, with 50% in support and 50% against. Now if IRC you work with numbers, what happens when you apply those figures across the rest of the remaining black populace? \*\* **Stuffy,** let it out, Afroman. Admit that you are part of the Afromind. What one member of the Afromind believes, all Afromembers believe. You’ll feel Afrobetter once you come out of the Afrocloset! Yours in Afropeace, AfroSua ---
**Author:** ![wring](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/838e76/32.png) [@wring](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wring)\ **Post date:** [June 28, 2002, 10:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-the-school-voucher-issue-cause-african-americans-to-switch-from-dem-to-rep/116449/8 "2002-06-28T22:30:32Z")
why in the world are you assuming that such a large group of people would alter their political views because of _one issue_? do you have evidence to support the basis for your question? (ie that those persons who self identified as Afro Americans consider the school voucher issue to be the litmus test for politics?) ---
**Author:** ![Stuffy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/f17d59/32.png) [@Stuffy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stuffy)\ **Post date:** [June 28, 2002, 10:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-the-school-voucher-issue-cause-african-americans-to-switch-from-dem-to-rep/116449/9 "2002-06-28T22:34:30Z")
\ **SuaSponte** My mom has a pic on her wall of me and my sibs, taken around 76, in it I have an afro the size of a beachball. I fully intend to burn it. \ ---
**Author:** ![Stuffy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/f17d59/32.png) [@Stuffy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stuffy)\ **Post date:** [June 28, 2002, 10:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-the-school-voucher-issue-cause-african-americans-to-switch-from-dem-to-rep/116449/10 "2002-06-28T22:42:52Z")
Another quick aside while you’re looking at those numbers **december** , what about the latinos? Since they’re attending the sames schools as blacks , adding those two numbers togoether should have made a huge difference in the outcome, you know since it has all that support. ---
**Author:** ![SuaSponte](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/67e7ee/32.png) [@SuaSponte](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SuaSponte)\ **Post date:** [June 28, 2002, 10:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-the-school-voucher-issue-cause-african-americans-to-switch-from-dem-to-rep/116449/11 "2002-06-28T22:48:54Z")
\ Blame it on me being a white boy from the suburbs, but until I was around 7 (also in 1976), I thought an Afro was simply the natural state for black people’s hair. 😃 \<{_something witty playing off “hijack”_}\> Sua ---
**Author:** ![december](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/838e76/32.png) [@december](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/december)\ **Post date:** [June 28, 2002, 11:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-the-school-voucher-issue-cause-african-americans-to-switch-from-dem-to-rep/116449/12 "2002-06-28T23:00:15Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by wring \* > \*\*why in the world are you assuming that such a large group of people would alter their political views because of _one issue_? > > do you have evidence to support the basis for your question? (ie that those persons who self identified as Afro Americans consider the school voucher issue to be the litmus test for politics?) \*\* I don’t know what’s going to happen. So far I’ve provided two bits of evidence: – A majority of African-Americans support school choice – Two individuals considered the issue to be highly important. **Stuffy** , yes Prop 38 got massacred. There were a number of specific reasons. It was overly broad. It was not well-promoted. You’re probably correct in your statistical judgments on the voting on Prop. 38. Here are some other cites. > [@](#): > > A majority of Americans believe that school vouchers would improve public schools and most parents of school-age children say they would rather send their children to private or parochial schools rather than public schools. [http://www.cnn.com/2001/ALLPOLITICS/stories/01/10/cnn.poll/](http://www.cnn.com/2001/ALLPOLITICS/stories/01/10/cnn.poll/) > [@](#): > > A hypothetical voucher system described as means tested…recieved majority support from African Americans (51.3%) [http://www.jointcenter.org/selpaper/pdffiles/educ98/00educat.pdf](http://www.jointcenter.org/selpaper/pdffiles/educ98/00educat.pdf) > [@](#): > > The 55 percent of [New York City] survey respondents who said they were familiar with vouchers were asked if families should be allowed to send their children to the school of their choice. Support ranged from a high of 81 percent in The Bronx to 58 percent in Manhattan. Support was lower among whites (61 percent) and highest among low-income residents and non-whites, with vouchers being favored by 83 percent of blacks, 86 percent of Asians, and 87 percent of Hispanics. [http://www.heartland.org/education/oct00/polls.htm](http://www.heartland.org/education/oct00/polls.htm) > [@](#): > > POLLS SHOW VOUCHER SUPPORT FOR PRIVATE EDUCATION CHOICE ACCELERATING > > DRAMATIC UP-SWING AMONG MINORITIES 1996-98 > > The percent who support vouchers for public, private or parochial schools has risen, and is highest among minorities. > > The poll, taken by the Joint Center for Political and Economic Studies, a black think tank in Washington, reports 57% of blacks, 65% of Hispanics, and 48% of whites support publicly funded tuition vouchers to pay for private education. The number for blacks represents an increase of 11 points since January 1996. [http://mwhodges.home.att.net/edchoice.htm#poll](http://mwhodges.home.att.net/edchoice.htm#poll) ---
**Author:** ![Colinito67](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/5daacb/32.png) [@Colinito67](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Colinito67)\ **Post date:** [June 28, 2002, 11:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-the-school-voucher-issue-cause-african-americans-to-switch-from-dem-to-rep/116449/13 "2002-06-28T23:12:04Z")
without getting into statistics, I’d like to say that because of my disgust at the unequal educational opportunities (where the poor and minorities get the shaft) I am against school vouchers. It is a solution that will make the problem worse, and will probably do better for the children of rich, white, conservative parents. December, you quote Clarence Thomas, the lawn jockey for George Bush and the GOP. Very representative of the black population! 🙂 I am very interested in getting minorities and the poor a good education. They will never rise up to be true equals and true citizens without a good education (Ironically, just as Douglass says in Thomas’ quote), and I think it is disgusting that the public school system has been in such a state for so long. But, as I said, I don’t think a school voucher program will be of any help in this area, and would probably end up being more detrimental- as in, the inequality of the school system between rich and poor and white and minorities will increase. colin ---
**Author:** ![Stuffy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/f17d59/32.png) [@Stuffy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stuffy)\ **Post date:** [June 28, 2002, 11:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-the-school-voucher-issue-cause-african-americans-to-switch-from-dem-to-rep/116449/14 "2002-06-28T23:16:04Z")
I’m about to go home so I don’t have a lot of time to look at these (I still haven’t gotten a new home ISP yet), but looking at just one of your cites (specifically the last) I notice something that I suspected before even seeing it, that the language used when polling changed the results. > [@](#): > > The poll showed: 44% support allowing students to attend a private school at “public expense,” while 52% remain opposed in 1997; four years earlier, 24% favored the idea while 74% were opposed. 48% favor and 48% oppose the idea when the words are changed to “government expense.” That suggests people believe someone other than taxpayers pays the bill if it is government funded. 72% of blacks support vouchers compared with 45% of whites; last year, 42% of blacks supported the idea. Which makes me automatically suspect the methodology. I’ll try to look into it more this weekend. ---
**Author:** ![wring](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/838e76/32.png) [@wring](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wring)\ **Post date:** [June 28, 2002, 11:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-the-school-voucher-issue-cause-african-americans-to-switch-from-dem-to-rep/116449/15 "2002-06-28T23:23:53Z")
also pointing out if you ask the question “do you think you should be able to send your child to a school of your choice” will elicit a ‘damn yes’ response quite frequently, as opposed, say to “do you favor tax funded voucher systems allowing parents to subsidize at tax payer expense, their children’s enrollment in parochial schools?” Vouchers went down substantially in Michigan last time it was tried, and IIRC, the heavily minority districts in Wayne County (Detroit) were substantially against it, vs. the damn that’s pale group up in Kent County and places north of mid Michigan. So, the data on actual votes seem to disprove your polls. ---
**Author:** ![WV\_Woman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/e95f7d/32.png) [@WV\_Woman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WV_Woman)\ **Post date:** [June 29, 2002, 12:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-the-school-voucher-issue-cause-african-americans-to-switch-from-dem-to-rep/116449/16 "2002-06-29T00:40:26Z")
I have a sincere question. I don’t know everything about this whole voucher thing, but here’s what I don’t get. Public schools have had a long time, and plenty of money, to educate kids. Now granted, there are some GREAT public school districts out there, but let’s face it … for the most part they suck. Why would anyone support giving them even MORE money, so they can screw up another generation, when some of the money they are given can go to people who want to yank their kids out of said schools? ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [June 29, 2002, 12:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-the-school-voucher-issue-cause-african-americans-to-switch-from-dem-to-rep/116449/17 "2002-06-29T00:44:07Z")
_GROAN_ Oh not AGAIN!!! ---
**Author:** ![pldennison](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/9fc29f/32.png) [@pldennison](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pldennison)\ **Post date:** [June 29, 2002, 1:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-the-school-voucher-issue-cause-african-americans-to-switch-from-dem-to-rep/116449/18 "2002-06-29T01:28:39Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Stuffy \* > \*\ ***SuaSponte** My mom has a pic on her wall of me and my sibs, taken around 76, in it I have an afro the size of a beachball. I fully intend to burn it. > \*\* The picture, or the Afro? :eek: ---
**Author:** ![monstro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ba9def/32.png) [@monstro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/monstro)\ **Post date:** [June 29, 2002, 1:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-the-school-voucher-issue-cause-african-americans-to-switch-from-dem-to-rep/116449/19 "2002-06-29T01:32:06Z")
Another negro checking in. Like **Stuffy** , I’m against vouchers. > [@](#): > > Why would anyone support giving them even MORE money, so they can screw up another generation, when some of the money they are given can go to people who want to yank their kids out of said schools? Well, if everyone thinks public schools suck and since private schools are the magic panacea, why don’t we just dismantle public schools all together and cut every parent a check for private school tuition? And while we’re at it, why don’t we give people money if they choose to drive rather than take public transportation, or if they choose to patronize private hospitals rather than public? Will public schools improve if kids get vouchers to go elsewhere? I don’t think so, and I wish someone would tell me why I should. ---
**Author:** ![CyberPundit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/76d3ee/32.png) [@CyberPundit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CyberPundit)\ **Post date:** [June 29, 2002, 4:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-the-school-voucher-issue-cause-african-americans-to-switch-from-dem-to-rep/116449/20 "2002-06-29T04:47:01Z")
I am a cautious supporter of vouchers. However I don’t think they will will lead to a big switch of blacks to Republicans because many black supporters of vouchers are in the inner-cities and they will probably have other reasons to support the Dems. What these people could do is to generate grassroots pressure in the Democratic party for vouchers. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-the-school-voucher-issue-cause-african-americans-to-switch-from-dem-to-rep/116449.md?page=2)