# Will the Tesla Model 3 revolutionize Amercan driving? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [July 30, 2015, 12:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-the-tesla-model-3-revolutionize-amercan-driving/726537 "2015-07-30T00:07:51Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 22
**Author:** ![Dr.Strangelove](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dr.strangelove/32/6613_2.png) [@Dr.Strangelove](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dr.Strangelove)\ **Post date:** [October 9, 2015, 11:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-the-tesla-model-3-revolutionize-amercan-driving/726537/421 "2015-10-09T23:41:58Z")
> [@Absolute](#): > > The BMW i3 and Nissan Leaf both use flat battery packs in the bottom of the car: e.g. [https://simanaitissays.files.wordpress.com/2013/07/bmwi3cutawayr34.jpg](https://simanaitissays.files.wordpress.com/2013/07/bmwi3cutawayr34.jpg) The i3 has a better layout than I had thought. My main criticism is that they use nowhere close to the entire undersurface–it’s less than 2/3 of the width. As such, they also need frame stiffeners on the sides, which itself take up space and weight. The Tesla in contrast uses the entire pack as a load-bearing device. It stiffens the entire car and so they don’t need extra structural members. The Leaf is less impressive IMHO. It’s also not really flat; the modules are stacked somewhat haphazardly to fill space under the seats. It also doesn’t fill a large portion of the underbody, nor does it act as a significant structural member. Even the internal packing doesn’t look so hot; there’s a big central channel for wiring that doesn’t seem very efficient. The Tesla instead uses broad, flat plates as the module-level buses; each cell connects to the plate via a small wire which doubles as a fuse. There’s very little waste and most of the components serve more than one purpose. > [@Absolute](#): > > Other manufacturers could have chosen to use off-the-shelf 18650 batteries as well, but they have chosen to invest in developing the technology to manufacture custom prismatic packs instead, because they obviously believe this will prove to be the superior technology in the long run. They may be right but it remains to be seen. As best I can tell, current manufacturers do not use fully custom prismatic cells. They instead use one of a handful of possible form factors which do not necessarily lend themselves to compact packaging. Tesla got lucky in that the height of an 18650 cell is just about what you want for a cell that covers the floor. They can then be tiled in a dense hexagonal arrangement and retain a lot of flexibility in dimensions. The 18650 cell that Tesla uses is actually becoming increasingly distant from off the shelf cells. They use custom end caps which remove the venting mechanism that normal cells use. This saves money and volume, but without changing the production process significantly. They retain good safety though other mechanisms. The prismatic cells currently in use don’t seem particularly efficient in and of themselves. Check out [this cutaway picture](http://www.teslamotorsclub.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=30010&d=1378518095). You can see that they’re probably not getting more than 80% packing density internally; there are plastic structural members; the separator bags are not infinitely thin; the housing has extra space for thermal expansion; etc. Tesla’s 18650 cells have much better internal packing efficiency. > [@Absolute](#): > > Once again though, NCA chemistry is not unique or proprietary to Tesla, they purchase their cells from Panasonic. There is nothing stopping a conventional OEM (e.g. Chevrolet with the Bolt) from using NCA cells in a large battery pack as well. No denying that. I meant “unique” only in that they’re the only auto manufacturer using them. Anyone else that was building a 200+ mile pack could use them (actually, they could get away with less since not all cars need the same performance). The gigafactory will produce cells with a slightly larger form factor, though Tesla hasn’t said exactly what yet. They appear to like the cylindrical form factor, and for them the 18650 is (allegedly) close to but not exactly optimal. Whatever they produce, though, will seemingly be proprietary. Though maybe not exclusive, since Panasonic is a partner and they may well resell the cells. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2015, 2:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-the-tesla-model-3-revolutionize-amercan-driving/726537/422 "2015-10-10T02:58:30Z")
> [@Dr.Strangelove](#): > > The i3 has a better layout than I had thought. My main criticism is that they use nowhere close to the entire undersurface–it’s less than 2/3 of the width. As such, they also need frame stiffeners on the sides, which itself take up space and weight. The Tesla in contrast uses the entire pack as a load-bearing device. It stiffens the entire car and so they don’t need extra structural members. > > The Leaf is less impressive IMHO. The Leaf is half the price. ---
**Author:** ![Dr.Strangelove](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dr.strangelove/32/6613_2.png) [@Dr.Strangelove](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dr.Strangelove)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2015, 3:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-the-tesla-model-3-revolutionize-amercan-driving/726537/423 "2015-10-10T03:18:33Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > The Leaf is half the price. Better design helps you no matter what the price. Sure, Nissan isn’t going to sell 250 mile cars at half the price of Tesla. But with better design, they could conceivably hit 125 miles or so. Instead of half, though, it’s more like a third. At any rate, the Leaf is an OK car, and sells the most units behind the Model S. As I said earlier, they’re the only ones other than Tesla that are really taking things seriously. I respect them for that. BMW is close, but they’re still hedging their bets with the range extender on the i3. ---
**Author:** ![Saint\_Cad](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/saint_cad/32/18907_2.png) [@Saint\_Cad](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Saint_Cad)\ **Post date:** [October 13, 2015, 7:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-the-tesla-model-3-revolutionize-amercan-driving/726537/424 "2015-10-13T07:57:04Z")
> [@Absolute](#): > > The real test of Tesla’s engineering will come in the next 3-5 years when they try to compete with the Chevrolet Bolt (nominally, a $30,000 electric with a 200-mile range) and similar products from other high-end manufacturers like BMW, who will be obligated to sell more and more electric cars in order to meet their fuel economy targets. Which is what this thread is about. In the OP I said Tesla’s next model ---
**Author:** ![The\_Niply\_Elder](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/8e8cbc/32.png) [@The\_Niply\_Elder](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Niply_Elder)\ **Post date:** [October 19, 2015, 1:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-the-tesla-model-3-revolutionize-amercan-driving/726537/425 "2015-10-19T01:15:35Z")
Well this is pretty cool > **[Your Autopilot has arrived | Tesla](https://www.tesla.com/blog/your-autopilot-has-arrived)** ---
**Author:** ![Dr.Strangelove](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dr.strangelove/32/6613_2.png) [@Dr.Strangelove](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dr.Strangelove)\ **Post date:** [October 19, 2015, 1:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-the-tesla-model-3-revolutionize-amercan-driving/726537/426 "2015-10-19T01:35:58Z")
Indeed. Especially since it’s just another over-the-air update. One day you wake up and your car can steer itself on the highway. Oh, and if you didn’t buy that option in the first place, you can call them up and order it after the fact. Which they also enable remotely. Even for Tesla, I’m a bit surprised at the audacity of it. There are some videos out already of people getting themselves into trouble by using autopilot in unauthorized situations. I hope no one causes an accident by abusing it, but it seems almost inevitable unless they enforce greater restrictions on when it can be enabled. It’s not fundamentally different from people abusing normal cruise control, but since it does so much more, I expect the backlash to be greater. ---
**Author:** ![Saint\_Cad](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/saint_cad/32/18907_2.png) [@Saint\_Cad](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Saint_Cad)\ **Post date:** [October 19, 2015, 2:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-the-tesla-model-3-revolutionize-amercan-driving/726537/427 "2015-10-19T02:02:40Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > If every other car manufacturer can duplicate a Tesla then it’s not a notable product. Why don’t you define what an engineering innovation is because according to you the atomic bomb is not notable because other countries can duplicate it. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [October 19, 2015, 4:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-the-tesla-model-3-revolutionize-amercan-driving/726537/428 "2015-10-19T04:04:05Z")
> [@Saint\_Cad](#): > > Why don’t you define what an engineering innovation is because according to you the atomic bomb is not notable because other countries can duplicate it. what’s the point? It’s been explained to you in excruciating detail by more than one person. They’re an underfunded company using off the shelf material delivering cars late to customers who paid in advance to keep the company going. It’s literally off-the-shelf technology in a very nicely packaged car. The nanosecond they dip their toe into the sales of a major company they will get boot stomped. It won’t be one company it will be a dozen who launch cars that are cheaper and better. I really don’t understand your confusion over this or the need to argue about it beyond a fanboy liking for the car. You wander back into a dormant thread comparing the Tesla to an atomic bomb. Really? Nuclear news flash, not every country has one because they’re not easy to make. You can’t go down to the atomic parts store and buy stuff and throw them together. You can however go down the the Lithium battery store and the electric motor store and buy the parts needed to build an electric car. There are many backyard mechanics doing just that and racing them. You can make quite a fun car for about $6K. Tesla has done a marvelous job making limited run luxury cars that nobody else will make because there is no money in it right now. but there are already 200 mile electric cars on the road for half the price of a Tesla. It’s simple math to see where this is going. Unlike ICE cars there isn’t a huge cost difference for bigger electric motors like there would be for a 600 hp luxury car. Body design costs are not going to be much different. So that just leaves the suspension and creature comforts. This is all boilerplate engineering for the established companies. The cost difference between the economy electric car getting 200 miles on a charge and a luxury car will be narrower than an ice car. When economies of scale are applied it will be very easy to undercut Tesla. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Niply\_Elder](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/8e8cbc/32.png) [@The\_Niply\_Elder](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Niply_Elder)\ **Post date:** [October 19, 2015, 5:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-the-tesla-model-3-revolutionize-amercan-driving/726537/429 "2015-10-19T05:53:35Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > what’s the point? It’s been explained to you in excruciating detail by more than one person. They’re an underfunded company using off the shelf material delivering cars late to customers who paid in advance to keep the company going. It’s literally off-the-shelf technology in a very nicely packaged car. The nanosecond they dip their toe into the sales of a major company they will get boot stomped. It won’t be one company it will be a dozen who launch cars that are cheaper and better. > > I really don’t understand your confusion over this or the need to argue about it beyond a fanboy liking for the car. You wander back into a dormant thread comparing the Tesla to an atomic bomb. Really? Nuclear news flash, not every country has one because they’re not easy to make. You can’t go down to the atomic parts store and buy stuff and throw them together. > > You can however go down the the Lithium battery store and the electric motor store and buy the parts needed to build an electric car. There are many backyard mechanics doing just that and racing them. You can make quite a fun car for about $6K. > > Tesla has done a marvelous job making limited run luxury cars that nobody else will make because there is no money in it right now. but there are already 200 mile electric cars on the road for half the price of a Tesla. It’s simple math to see where this is going. > > Unlike ICE cars there isn’t a huge cost difference for bigger electric motors like there would be for a 600 hp luxury car. Body design costs are not going to be much different. So that just leaves the suspension and creature comforts. This is all boilerplate engineering for the established companies. The cost difference between the economy electric car getting 200 miles on a charge and a luxury car will be narrower than an ice car. When economies of scale are applied it will be very easy to undercut Tesla. Ok, so we all know you are taking the devil’s advocate role in this thread, and have been doing a pretty decent job at it since you’re all by your lonesome. But on the other hand, you’ve been doing a horrific job at it since you don’t have any data to back up your claims and you won’t address any of the dozen questions that point out how ridiculous your assertions are. All your thesis boils down to is that Goliath is going to win because they’re Goliath, as soon as Goliath wakes up from its slumber. At the deepest level though, I don’t think that you understand the reason for Tesla’s existence. If Tesla fails and goes bankrupt and the big auto companies transition to making electric cars instead of petro cars, then that is a success. Tesla under that scenario acts as a catalyst to make the change onto sustainable auto transport. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Niply\_Elder](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/8e8cbc/32.png) [@The\_Niply\_Elder](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Niply_Elder)\ **Post date:** [October 19, 2015, 5:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-the-tesla-model-3-revolutionize-amercan-driving/726537/430 "2015-10-19T05:59:48Z")
Also I have to ask for a cite for the underfunded claim. And also I’m going to throw a fact at you: engineering grads and professionals are throwing themselves to go work at Tesla. Nobody give a fucking flying fuck to work for a Ford or for a GM because precisely they are a dying behemoth curmudgeon. ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [October 19, 2015, 1:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-the-tesla-model-3-revolutionize-amercan-driving/726537/431 "2015-10-19T13:31:52Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > but there are already 200 mile electric cars on the road for half the price of a Tesla. Serious question, what cars are you talking about? ---
**Author:** ![Balthisar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/balthisar/32/2825_2.png) [@Balthisar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Balthisar)\ **Post date:** [October 19, 2015, 2:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-the-tesla-model-3-revolutionize-amercan-driving/726537/432 "2015-10-19T14:00:46Z")
> [@The\_Niply\_Elder](#): > > Ok, so we all know you are taking the devil’s advocate role in this thread, and have been doing a pretty decent job at it since you’re all by your lonesome. I kind of agree with him, so he’s not really on his lonesome. > [@](#): > > At the deepest level though, I don’t think that you understand the reason for Tesla’s existence. If Tesla fails and goes bankrupt and the big auto companies transition to making electric cars instead of petro cars, then that is a success. Tesla under that scenario acts as a catalyst to make the change onto sustainable auto transport. What world are you living in? Tesla is a profit oriented company, and the people who have invested in Tesla expect a return on their investments. Do you think they will think Tesla is a success if their shares suddenly become worth zero? > [@The\_Niply\_Elder](#): > > And also I’m going to throw a fact at you: engineering grads and professionals are throwing themselves to go work at Tesla. Nobody give a fucking flying fuck to work for a Ford or for a GM because precisely they are a dying behemoth curmudgeon. Do you have cite for this? Unfortunately I only have anecdotal evidence as a person who interviews enthusiastic engineers for opportunities at one of the companies that you mentioned. Granted, there’s a certain allure to companies like Tesla. Even humble me participated in an interview with a different company rumored to be developing a car. But who wouldn’t follow allure? ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [October 19, 2015, 11:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-the-tesla-model-3-revolutionize-amercan-driving/726537/433 "2015-10-19T23:12:32Z")
> [@The\_Niply\_Elder](#): > > Ok, so we all know you are taking the devil’s advocate role in this thread, and have been doing a pretty decent job at it since you’re all by your lonesome. But on the other hand, you’ve been doing a horrific job at it since you don’t have any data to back up your claims and you won’t address any of the dozen questions that point out how ridiculous your assertions are. All your thesis boils down to is that Goliath is going to win because they’re Goliath, as soon as Goliath wakes up from its slumber. what assertions are you contesting? ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [October 19, 2015, 11:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-the-tesla-model-3-revolutionize-amercan-driving/726537/434 "2015-10-19T23:38:13Z")
> [@The\_Niply\_Elder](#): > > Also I have to ask for a cite for the underfunded claim. > > And also I’m going to throw a fact at you: engineering grads and professionals are throwing themselves to go work at Tesla. Nobody give a fucking flying fuck to work for a Ford or for a GM because precisely they are a dying behemoth curmudgeon. Finances for Tesla cited earlier in the thread. If you want to dispute it read the thread and respond to the cite. As for Ford, they rode through the recession without any kind of bailout. They were making hybrids that were actually cost effective to the consumer starting with the Ford Escape. I’m going out on a limb and say their engineers give a flying fuck as they’re making profitable cars that the public can afford. Tesla on the other hand is asking for large down payments on cars that are months or a year away. They are the walking definition of a “day late and a dollar short”. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [October 19, 2015, 11:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-the-tesla-model-3-revolutionize-amercan-driving/726537/435 "2015-10-19T23:57:32Z")
> [@Ravenman](#): > > Serious question, what cars are you talking about? This was brought up earlier in the thread. Look it up and see what’s coming online in the real world. You might be pleasantly surprised. ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [October 19, 2015, 11:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-the-tesla-model-3-revolutionize-amercan-driving/726537/436 "2015-10-19T23:58:19Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > This was brought up earlier in the thread. Look it up and see what’s coming online in the real world. You might be pleasantly surprised. Can we not play games please? ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [October 20, 2015, 12:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-the-tesla-model-3-revolutionize-amercan-driving/726537/437 "2015-10-20T00:49:46Z")
> [@Ravenman](#): > > Can we not play games please? Can we read the thread please or do I need a cite suggesting the relevance of that part of the process too? I’ve put forth a very simple premise and made cites. It falls on you to read what I cited, respond to it, and then cite your evidence to the contrary. ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [October 20, 2015, 1:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-the-tesla-model-3-revolutionize-amercan-driving/726537/438 "2015-10-20T01:43:31Z")
> **[List of production battery electric vehicles](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_electric_cars_currently_available)** > > This is a list of battery electric vehicles that are mass-produced, formerly produced, and planned. It includes only vehicles exclusively using chemical energy stored in rechargeable battery packs, with no secondary source of propulsion (e.g. hydrogen fuel cell, internal combustion engine, etc.). > Highway-capable battery electric automobiles capable of 100 km/h (62 mph) highway speed: I see a few cars not Teslas that have 200 mile range, but they look more expensive as opposed to half the price. So, what cars are you talking about that are currently on the road for half the price with that range? Why doesn’t Wikipedia know about them? Shoot, tell me what these cars are. I’ll go buy one this weekend. I’m serious. I want to ditch this fraudulent TDI that I own. Tell me what cars these are. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [October 20, 2015, 1:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-the-tesla-model-3-revolutionize-amercan-driving/726537/439 "2015-10-20T01:59:33Z")
they’re road testing them now. [The Chevy Bolt.](http://www.cnet.com/news/chevy-confirms-chevy-bolt-ev-in-testing/) Probably late next year. Unlike the Volt it should be in all 50 states when it’s introduced. 80% charge in 30 minutes. ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [October 20, 2015, 2:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-the-tesla-model-3-revolutionize-amercan-driving/726537/440 "2015-10-20T02:01:44Z")
So, that’s one and it isn’t actually available. Are there others you were thinking of when you wrote about these “cars on the road”? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-the-tesla-model-3-revolutionize-amercan-driving/726537.md?page=21) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-the-tesla-model-3-revolutionize-amercan-driving/726537.md?page=23)