# Will the Tesla Model 3 revolutionize Amercan driving? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [July 30, 2015, 12:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-the-tesla-model-3-revolutionize-amercan-driving/726537 "2015-07-30T00:07:51Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 28
**Author:** ![Saint\_Cad](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/saint_cad/32/18907_2.png) [@Saint\_Cad](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Saint_Cad)\ **Post date:** [November 9, 2015, 2:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-the-tesla-model-3-revolutionize-amercan-driving/726537/541 "2015-11-09T14:36:59Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > Bull hockey. They make luxury cars. People are excited about TESLA. Electric cars are the natural extension of hybrids. If you’re flinging credit for any excitement over economy cars give it to Toyota and Ford for making cars that make economic sense. > > If the Bolt hits the road first then the standard is set by GM not Tesla. GM had an electric car out long before Tesla existed. Electric cars literally go all the way back to the very beginning of automotive history and were viable for years until the ice motor blew past them in performance. > > Tesla is to electric cars as Porsche is to ICE cars. Nobody was inspired to buy a Chevy Vega because Porsche built the 214. And nobody rushed out to buy a Cosworth Vega. The 2 markets are a complete disconnect. > > This thread is pure fanboy emotional nonsense. I’m as impressed with Tesla’s luxury car’s as the next person but that doesn’t negate the fact they didn’t invent anything of note and have been riding their own niche market through very tough times. If they had an ounce of brains they would have stepped up their game and raised their prices. That’s where their market lies. In luxury cars. I’m unaware of any luxury brand that successfully competed by bringing out economy cars. Tesla is simply not in a position to compete. They don’t have the resources to throw at it. Economy cars are by default a function of economies of scale and frugal engineering. > > Tesla has never been at the forefront of electric cars and is not the progenitor of anything beyond their own niche market. Yet again you prove you never really read the thread. The issue is not the luxury cars but rather a $35,000 EV that goes 200+ miles so maybe you should stop throwing up the strawmen of the Models S and X and stick to the Model 3. You bring up other EVs. Name one fully electric that gets over 100 miles before Tesla came out. Oh wait that’s right you need to move the goalposts rather than stick to the topic of the thread. ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [November 9, 2015, 4:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-the-tesla-model-3-revolutionize-amercan-driving/726537/542 "2015-11-09T16:44:49Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > Bull hockey. They make luxury cars. Seven years ago, Tesla made exotic cars. Then they started making luxury cars. Soon, they expect to be selling family cars. Had someone posted this thread about seven years ago, but titled it, “Will the Model S revolutionize American driving?” I bet you that you would have made innumerable posts to the effect of, “TESLA ONLY MAKES TWO SEAT CARS!1!” You understand that companies often diversify their product lines, don’t you? And they do this to become more profitable in the future? And that profit is what happens when you sell lots of things at a price that is greater (a fancy word for “more”) than what you paid to make it? > [@](#): > > If the Bolt hits the road first then the standard is set by GM not Tesla. GM had an electric car out long before Tesla existed. Actually, it is very clear that GM is chasing Tesla. The EV-1 produced about 1,100 vehicles, and GM literally took them away from the users. Tesla is actually selling 1,500-2,400 Model S’s each month, so it’s simply nonsense to imply that Tesla is chasing an experimental car that was forcably taken off the road a decade ago. > [@](#): > > Tesla is to electric cars as Porsche is to ICE cars. That’s wrong. Is Porsche introducing a $35,000 family sedan? Well, Tesla plans to. The silliness of your “Tesla is only a luxury car company, so they’ll never sell a lot of cars” is that is relies on the same sort of retarded logic as if someone were to say, “Chevy is an ICE company, therefore they will never sell a pure EV.” > [@](#): > > This thread is pure fanboy emotional nonsense. I’d strike the word “fanboy” and agree that a sizeable minority of posts in this thread are emotional nonsense, a repetition of factual errors and poor argument, utterly failing to address simple factual corrections. > [@](#): > > Tesla has never been at the forefront of electric cars and is not the progenitor of anything beyond their own niche market. One more factual correction here: Tesla now sells more Model S per month than Roadsters that were ever manufactured. Sure, maybe you will argue that Roadsters were super-niche, and Model S is simply niche, but you can’t possibly be unaware of Tesla’s trend in production from like 10 cars a month to more like 2,000 cars a month. If the Model 3 is successful, Tesla may be selling about 2,000 of them a week. ---
**Author:** ![puzzlegal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/puzzlegal/32/3827_2.png) [@puzzlegal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puzzlegal)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2015, 2:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-the-tesla-model-3-revolutionize-amercan-driving/726537/543 "2015-11-10T02:03:37Z")
> **[FINAL UPDATE: Quarterly Plug-In EV Sales Scorecard](https://insideevs.com/news/343998/monthly-plug-in-ev-sales-scorecard/)** > > The most comprehensive listing of plug-in EV sales for the United States. Compiled quarterly, yearly, and all-time by automaker. Huh, Tesla has sold more plug in cars this year than any other auto manufacturer, if I read this right. Tesla Model S: 18,900 Ford Fusion Energi, C-max energi, and Focus electric: 15,514 Nissan Leaf: 14,868 Chevy Volt, Spark: 13,610 BMW i3, i8: 10,370 Fiat 500e: 5,539 Toyota Plugin Prius: 4,125 VW e-Golf: 3,151 If you look only at pure electrics, and not hybrid electrics, etc., there’s even less competition. Also interesting how the market for the plug-in Prius has tanked. That used to be in the running for sales lead. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2015, 2:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-the-tesla-model-3-revolutionize-amercan-driving/726537/544 "2015-11-10T02:39:01Z")
> [@Saint\_Cad](#): > > Yet again you prove you never really read the thread. The issue is not the luxury cars but rather a $35,000 EV that goes 200+ miles so maybe you should stop throwing up the strawmen of the Models S and X and stick to the Model 3. > > You bring up other EVs. Name one fully electric that gets over 100 miles before Tesla came out. Oh wait that’s right you need to move the goalposts rather than stick to the topic of the thread. There is no $35,000 Tesla EV that goes 200+ miles so it’s really not possible for it to revolutionize American driving at this point. There’s also no $35,000 EV that goes 100 miles. So we’re back to you whining about talk of luxury cars. Which is the only thing Tesla makes at this point. ---
**Author:** ![Dr.Strangelove](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dr.strangelove/32/6613_2.png) [@Dr.Strangelove](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dr.Strangelove)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2015, 2:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-the-tesla-model-3-revolutionize-amercan-driving/726537/545 "2015-11-10T02:52:17Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > Tesla has never been at the forefront of electric cars and is not the progenitor of anything beyond their own niche market. Look, we know you have a hard…_y respect_ for Bob Lutz, because every one of your arguments is copied verbatim from things he’s said, but even Lutz admits that the Volt would not exist without Tesla. ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2015, 2:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-the-tesla-model-3-revolutionize-amercan-driving/726537/546 "2015-11-10T02:52:39Z")
Which brings us back to a slightly different version of the **Magiver** -type argument from 2010: “There is no four-door electric car that goes 250 miles on a single charge. Tesla only builds two-seat roadsters!!” I wish that type of argument was more common in th Elections forum: “Marco Rubio can’t be president. Barack Obama is president, you dummies!” ---
**Author:** ![JKilez](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/e5b9ba/32.png) [@JKilez](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JKilez)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2015, 3:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-the-tesla-model-3-revolutionize-amercan-driving/726537/547 "2015-11-10T03:00:34Z")
> [@puzzlegal](#): > > Huh, Tesla has sold more plug in cars this year than any other auto manufacturer, if I read this right. You caught on to their strategy. Just keep selling the same amount of cars and wait until all other manufacturers’ sales tank. You then become number one! Those numbers do not bode well. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2015, 3:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-the-tesla-model-3-revolutionize-amercan-driving/726537/548 "2015-11-10T03:10:43Z")
> [@puzzlegal](#): > > [FINAL UPDATE: Quarterly Plug-In EV Sales Scorecard](http://insideevs.com/monthly-plug-in-sales-scorecard/) > > Huh, Tesla has sold more plug in cars this year than any other auto manufacturer, if I read this right. > > Tesla Model S: 18,900 > Ford Fusion Energi, C-max energi, and Focus electric: 15,514 > Nissan Leaf: 14,868 > Chevy Volt, Spark: 13,610 > BMW i3, i8: 10,370 > Fiat 500e: 5,539 > Toyota Plugin Prius: 4,125 > VW e-Golf: 3,151 > > If you look only at pure electrics, and not hybrid electrics, etc., there’s even less competition. > > Also interesting how the market for the plug-in Prius has tanked. That used to be in the running for sales lead. You’ve read that correctly. The Model S landed well in it’s niche class. ---
**Author:** ![puzzlegal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/puzzlegal/32/3827_2.png) [@puzzlegal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puzzlegal)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2015, 3:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-the-tesla-model-3-revolutionize-amercan-driving/726537/549 "2015-11-10T03:13:18Z")
The Prius has tanked. But the Tesla S, Leaf, and Volt are doing pretty well, the two Ford Energi cars continue chugging along, and the BMW i3, which only started sales last year, has grown to be a serious contended in this space. The total # of plug-ins sold this year is running pretty close to where it was last year, except for not having the boost from some CA freeway deal that moved a ton of cars (and especially plug-in priuses) last summer. (IIRC) ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2015, 3:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-the-tesla-model-3-revolutionize-amercan-driving/726537/550 "2015-11-10T03:17:47Z")
> [@JKilez](#): > > You caught on to their strategy. Just keep selling the same amount of cars and wait until all other manufacturers’ sales tank. You then become number one! > > Those numbers do not bode well. They currently own the luxury EV market. The other cars mentioned are not in that category. Those cars have to justify their existence and sales will fluctuate with the price of gas. Right now we’re hovering around $2/gallon. This is a nation of truck lovers who are use to 18 mpg. A 310 hp Mustang starts to look like an economy car that gets out of it’s own way and is fun to drive. . ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2015, 3:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-the-tesla-model-3-revolutionize-amercan-driving/726537/551 "2015-11-10T03:45:23Z")
> [@Dr.Strangelove](#): > > Look, we know you have a hard…_y respect_ for Bob Lutz, because every one of your arguments is copied verbatim from things he’s said, but even Lutz admits that the Volt would not exist without Tesla. I’d give Obama the credit for the Volt. It was a guaranteed money loser at the time GM was filing for bankruptcy. And I haven’t given GM any praise in this thread. I’ve simply pointed out what they’re doing. Ford has consistently been the best run American car manufacturer this century. When they introduced their hybrids the price differential was made up in fuel efficiency. It made monetary sense to buy them and they were profitable to sell. Tesla has always been underfunded and it shows with their production deadlines. I don’t understand this fantasy people have with the company. Yes, they make beautiful luxury cars. That does not make them revolutionary. It just makes them expensive. Nothing they’ve done will change the way GM or any other car company builds their cars. They have far more resources available to work with then Tesla. I would buy a Ford electric before Tesla because I know Ford has better resources and will be around to back the car up. ---
**Author:** ![puzzlegal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/puzzlegal/32/3827_2.png) [@puzzlegal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puzzlegal)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2015, 4:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-the-tesla-model-3-revolutionize-amercan-driving/726537/552 "2015-11-10T04:22:36Z")
lol, well, i DID buy a Ford electric (the C-max energi) and have not bought a Tesla, so I guess I agree with you. The C-max is a surprisingly fun car to drive, especially in electric mode. I think electric cars are going to catch on because as people try them, they will like them. ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2015, 11:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-the-tesla-model-3-revolutionize-amercan-driving/726537/553 "2015-11-10T11:50:16Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > Yes, they make beautiful luxury cars. That does not make them revolutionary. It just makes them expensive. Once again, “Tesla does not make four door cars. Tesla only makes a two seater.” > [@](#): > > Nothing they’ve done will change the way GM or any other car company builds their cars. Which car do you believe helped convince GM to design the Bolt - the Model S, or the Nissan Leaf? The answer is obvious. ---
**Author:** ![Death\_of\_Rats](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a6a055/32.png) [@Death\_of\_Rats](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Death_of_Rats)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2015, 3:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-the-tesla-model-3-revolutionize-amercan-driving/726537/554 "2015-11-10T15:22:48Z")
> [@Ravenman](#): > > Once again, “Tesla does not make four door cars. Tesla only makes a two seater.” > > Which car do you believe helped convince GM to design the Bolt - the Model S, or the Nissan Leaf? The answer is obvious. and yet, GM only offers two electric models out of the 21 models they have just for Chevrolet and one of those is an electric version of a model they offer in gas as well. That does not even touch the other three name plates which offer NO electric models. All Tesla did was convince real car companies to put out a token effort to drive them out of business. It did nothing to change how they build cars, except to kill off hybrids. ---
**Author:** ![Saint\_Cad](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/saint_cad/32/18907_2.png) [@Saint\_Cad](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Saint_Cad)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2015, 6:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-the-tesla-model-3-revolutionize-amercan-driving/726537/555 "2015-11-10T18:44:52Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > There is no $35,000 Tesla EV that goes 200+ miles so it’s really not possible for it to revolutionize American driving at this point. > > There’s also no $35,000 EV that goes 100 miles. So we’re back to you whining about talk of luxury cars. Which is the only thing Tesla makes at this point. So you now admit you didn’t even read the first line of this thread. > [@Saint\_Cad](#): > > Assuming it lives up to its promises. [This may help you out.](http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/hypothetical) ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2015, 11:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-the-tesla-model-3-revolutionize-amercan-driving/726537/556 "2015-11-10T23:23:36Z")
> [@Ravenman](#): > > Once again, “Tesla does not make four door cars. Tesla only makes a two seater.” um… what? > [@Ravenman](#): > > Which car do you believe helped convince GM to design the Bolt - the Model S, or the Nissan Leaf? The answer is obvious. The EV-1. Which would have been the inspiration for the Model S and the Leaf. You’ve got everything backwards not to mention the Bolt is not a luxury car. Really, you’re not dealing with facts and have attached yourself on a fantasy level to Tesla. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2015, 11:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-the-tesla-model-3-revolutionize-amercan-driving/726537/557 "2015-11-10T23:32:59Z")
> [@Saint\_Cad](#): > > So you now admit you didn’t even read the first line of this thread. I’ve read the entire thread. I’m not the one asking for quotes that were already made. You on the other hand are trying to score some kind of debate points in lieu of a response to what I’ve said. Tesla has done nothing to revolutionize American driving. GM has always been ahead of the game and if anything the EV-1 is the influence for Tesla. ---
**Author:** ![Dr.Strangelove](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dr.strangelove/32/6613_2.png) [@Dr.Strangelove](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dr.Strangelove)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2015, 11:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-the-tesla-model-3-revolutionize-amercan-driving/726537/558 "2015-11-10T23:57:03Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > The EV-1. Which would have been the inspiration for the Model S and the Leaf. Tesla gives plenty of credit to the EV-1, though mostly in a negative sense (with regards to GM’s behavior). Of course it’s well known that GM ended the program as soon as they possibly could, and scrapped all the cars despite the protests of the lessees (the cars were never sold). Not to mention a lack of an EV-2. The drivers of the EV-1 were enthusiastic about their cars despite it being fairly shitty. If a piece of junk can inspire candlelight vigils, then surely a well-designed car can actually achieve decent success. And that’s exactly what Tesla found to be true. The EV-1 deserves its place in history as an example of what not to do, and as evidence of the utter antipathy that big automakers had/have with regards to electrics. They would not in a million years have bothered with them if it weren’t for a combination of government regulation and Tesla’s existence proof of an excellent electric car. Tesla forced the big automakers to move their goalposts. They can no longer claim that EVs inevitably suck and that there’s no consumer demand for them. On the contrary, they’re as slick and innovative and desirable as an iPhone. Cheap is the only argument that’s left, and everybody (including Tesla) is currently working in that direction. ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2015, 1:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-the-tesla-model-3-revolutionize-amercan-driving/726537/559 "2015-11-11T01:42:26Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > um… what? You keep saying that Tesla is a luxury car company, even though they are working on a family car. Seven years ago, you surely would have called Tesla an exotic supercar company even though they were working on a four door sedan. It’s the same oblivious comment you’ve made dozens of times in this thread. > [@](#): > > The EV-1. Which would have been the inspiration for the Model S and the Leaf. It took GM sixteen years to come up with a second electric car? Holy shit, they are incompetent. > [@](#): > > You’ve got everything backwards not to mention the Bolt is not a luxury car. I truly have no idea how to say this any clearer - the Model 3 is not a luxury car. ---
**Author:** ![Saint\_Cad](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/saint_cad/32/18907_2.png) [@Saint\_Cad](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Saint_Cad)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2015, 2:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-the-tesla-model-3-revolutionize-amercan-driving/726537/560 "2015-11-11T02:24:06Z")
Here is Magiver’s side in a nutshell. Ignore the Model 3 and focus on the Model S. I guess S stands for Strawman. Justify this with fact he thinks (or hopes) are true - even if they contradict earlier “facts” he posted. The bottom line is even if M is correct that the Bolt will hit first or is a better car or Tesla will fold before the 3 rolls out the door, he neglects the main point in that people are _excited_ about the Tesla and many view it (rightfully or wrongfully) as the first affordable AND practical electric car - even though we have our fingers crossed hoping it lives up to the hype. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-the-tesla-model-3-revolutionize-amercan-driving/726537.md?page=27) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-the-tesla-model-3-revolutionize-amercan-driving/726537.md?page=29)