# Will the Tesla Model 3 revolutionize Amercan driving?
**URL:** https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-the-tesla-model-3-revolutionize-amercan-driving/726537
**Category:** Great Debates
**Created:** [July 30, 2015, 12:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-the-tesla-model-3-revolutionize-amercan-driving/726537 "2015-07-30T00:07:51Z")
**Posts on this page:** 20
**Page:** 6
### Author:  [@Dewey\_Finn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dewey_Finn)
#### Post date: [August 4, 2015, 5:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-the-tesla-model-3-revolutionize-amercan-driving/726537/101 "2015-08-04T17:39:06Z")
What? Why are you suggesting that electric cars “will remain a niche product” until there are electric tractor/trailers, motorcycles, construction equipment, etc? Those tractor/trailers and construction vehicles run on diesel, unlike most IC passenger cars. Typically the semis refuel at different stations than passenger autos. And yet those of us driving passenger cars manage to co-exist with those driving semis.
And keep in mind that for most electric car owners, the driving will be to and from home each day. (Despite the claims of needing a range of 500-800 miles, most people drive less than thirty miles on a typical day.) And in that case the refueling station is right there in the garage, in the form of the electrical outlet.
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### Author:  [@Saint\_Cad](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Saint_Cad)
#### Post date: [August 4, 2015, 7:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-the-tesla-model-3-revolutionize-amercan-driving/726537/102 "2015-08-04T19:56:10Z")
> [@Diceman](#):
>
> That brings up another wrinkle, that particularly effects people who live in cold-weather areas. In a regular car, heat is free. You can run the heater all day without affecting your fuel economy. This isn’t the case in an electric car. That was probably a big part of that disastrous test drive in the NYC/Connecticut area a few years ago (where the Tesla ran out of juice and ended up having to be towed). It took place on a cold winter day, and like any normal person the driver had the heat turned up, with the result that the range suffered. (To be fair, there was also an issue with the driver deviating from the planned course, apparently to avoid traffic jams in NYC, but the weather & its effect on range was the elephant in the room that Tesla very subbornly ignored.)
Can you link to that? The only “failure” I recall was when the reporter purposefully made the car run out of electricity and lied about how he was driving it. Tesla pulled the logs and showed that the reporter fabricated the story. Is this a different test?
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### Author:  [@Boyo\_Jim](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Boyo_Jim)
#### Post date: [August 4, 2015, 8:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-the-tesla-model-3-revolutionize-amercan-driving/726537/103 "2015-08-04T20:01:45Z")
> [@Saint\_Cad](#):
>
> Can you link to that? The only “failure” I recall was when the reporter purposefully made the car run out of electricity and lied about how he was driving it. Tesla pulled the logs and showed that the reporter fabricated the story. Is this a different test?
If we are all talking about the same thing, the reporter disputes Tesla’s claim. His counter claim is that the logs show him driving around seemingly randomly because the charger station was not where it was supposed to be and he drove around looking for it.
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### Author:  [@Saint\_Cad](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Saint_Cad)
#### Post date: [August 4, 2015, 8:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-the-tesla-model-3-revolutionize-amercan-driving/726537/104 "2015-08-04T20:11:06Z")
> [@Cheesesteak](#):
>
> My belief is that pure electric cars won’t be considered an equivalent replacement until you have super long range batteries. They will remain a niche product, though perhaps a sizable one, until they can be reasonably considered on par with gas powered cars in terms of range.
I’m going to start calling this the “Mustang in Colorado” argument.
Being a rear-wheel drive car with some power, most people who would try to drive a Ford Mustang in the snow or ice are going to end up in an accident eventually so off course it doesn’t make sense to own a Mustang in Colorado since you cannot use it 100% of the year, right?
Here would be my other counter-argument. What is the range of your current gascar? Mine is about 360 miles so a little above the estimated Tesla 3 range but let’s call it close enough for the experiment. How often do you leave your house with a full tank of gas and have to get more gas before you get home for the night? There may be 7-10 days out of the year where that is the case. A weeks vacation and maybe a couple of long 300+ mile one-way road trips. Let’s call it 2 weeks.
I drive at least 100 miles per day round trip for my job. 100 miles at 20 mpg at $3 per gallon times 255 days (so just work) is $3825. And that is not including errands on the weekend. I can rent a car for less than $500/week making a savings of over $3000 per year.
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### Author:  [@Boyo\_Jim](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Boyo_Jim)
#### Post date: [August 4, 2015, 8:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-the-tesla-model-3-revolutionize-amercan-driving/726537/105 "2015-08-04T20:17:16Z")
> [@Saint\_Cad](#):
>
> I’m going to start calling this the “Mustang in Colorado” argument.
> Being a rear-wheel drive car with some power, most people who would try to drive a Ford Mustang in the snow or ice are going to end up in an accident eventually so off course it doesn’t make sense to own a Mustang in Colorado since you cannot use it 100% of the year, right?
>
> Here would be my other counter-argument. What is the range of your current gascar? Mine is about 360 miles so a little above the estimated Tesla 3 range but let’s call it close enough for the experiment. How often do you leave your house with a full tank of gas and have to get more gas before you get home for the night? There may be 7-10 days out of the year where that is the case. A weeks vacation and maybe a couple of long 300+ mile one-way road trips. Let’s call it 2 weeks.
> I drive at least 100 miles per day round trip for my job. 100 miles at 20 mpg at $3 per gallon times 255 days (so just work) is $3825. And that is not including errands on the weekend. I can rent a car for less than $500/week making a savings of over $3000 per year.
I am missing whatever point you are trying to make. What does a rental car have to do with anything. Are you suggesting that it would be cheaper to rent a car for your commute? That the cost of a rental car + gas would be cheaper than just the gas for the car you now own? Or what, exactly?
What kind of car do you have? What kind of mileage does it get?
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### Author:  [@Saint\_Cad](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Saint_Cad)
#### Post date: [August 4, 2015, 8:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-the-tesla-model-3-revolutionize-amercan-driving/726537/106 "2015-08-04T20:21:40Z")
> [@Boyo\_Jim](#):
>
> If we are all talking about the same thing, the reporter disputes Tesla’s claim. His counter claim is that the logs show him driving around seemingly randomly because the charger station was not where it was supposed to be and he drove around looking for it.
You realize that the New York Times apologized for the review
> [@](#):
>
> As it turns out, after having “read hundreds of emails and reader comments” on the situation, having talks with her brother (a “physician, car aficionado and Tesla fan”), Broder, Musk, two “key” Tesla employees, the tow-truck driver charged with picking up the vehicle after Broder’s review (and his dispatcher), other NYT journalists, and more, Sullivan found there to be a problem with precision and judgement. Sullivan notes specifically that Broder, in his review, didn’t use good judgement from start to finish.
>
> It wasn’t that Broder “hoped the drive would end badly”, but instead that he didn’t precisely follow the rules, so to speak. Having not had a proper overnight charge the night before charging the vehicle in Norwich, Connecticut, for example, and keeping rather “casual and imprecise notes” through the drive, allowed Broder to be criticized heavily. Musk too, Sullivan found, made some rather “damaging (and sometimes quite misleading)” comments using these logs as they compared to the digitally recorded driving logs (as shown in the link earlier in this post).
Not to say he intentionally ran it out of juice (I think he did) but giving Broder the benefit of the doubt, it would be like the time I almost ran out of gas 5 miles out of Flagstaff because I was driving a car I wasn’t familiar with and thought 1/4 tank meant close to a quarter tank not “Holy crap you need to get gas NOW!!!”
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### Author:  [@Saint\_Cad](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Saint_Cad)
#### Post date: [August 4, 2015, 8:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-the-tesla-model-3-revolutionize-amercan-driving/726537/107 "2015-08-04T20:24:52Z")
> [@Boyo\_Jim](#):
>
> I am missing whatever point you are trying to make. What does a rental car have to do with anything. Are you suggesting that it would be cheaper to rent a car for your commute? That the cost of a rental car + gas would be cheaper than just the gas for the car you now own? Or what, exactly?
>
> What kind of car do you have? What kind of mileage does it get?
The point was if I get a Tesla, I would still save a couple thousand dollars even renting an SUV for the times I need longer range.
Jeep Liberty 20 mpg.
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### Author:  [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)
#### Post date: [August 4, 2015, 8:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-the-tesla-model-3-revolutionize-amercan-driving/726537/108 "2015-08-04T20:30:00Z")
> [@Boyo\_Jim](#):
>
> If we are all talking about the same thing, the reporter disputes Tesla’s claim. His counter claim is that the logs show him driving around seemingly randomly because the charger station was not where it was supposed to be and he drove around looking for it.
IIRC, the logs also showed that he drove portions of the route at speeds up to 85 mph, but he wrote that he set the cruise control for 57 the whole way. I think there was also a part about the reporter claiming that he fully charged the battery, but the logs show that it was only partially charged.
IMHO, I didn’t buy Tesla’s claim (or implication) that the reporter sandbagged the whole test, but I think they are right that the reporter lied about several details of his trip.
[Here](http://www.teslamotors.com/blog/most-peculiar-test-drive) is Tesla’s rebuttal. Like I said, I don’t buy every single accusation, but it’s pretty damn convincing overall.
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### Author:  [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)
#### Post date: [August 4, 2015, 8:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-the-tesla-model-3-revolutionize-amercan-driving/726537/109 "2015-08-04T20:39:31Z")
> [@Death\_of\_Rats](#):
>
> Electric cars will remain a niche vehicle much like hybrids until the industry can surmount far more formidable challenges than range or battery life.
Hybrids are niche cars in some parts of the country, but the Prius was the best selling car in California for a while, and there are tons of them on the road. Plus, most cabs I see are Priuses for obvious reasons. There are lots of other hybrids also.
[Cite](http://www.ibtimes.com/why-toyota-prius-lost-top-slot-californias-best-selling-car-1585815) about when the Prius was the best selling car.
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### Author:  [@Saint\_Cad](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Saint_Cad)
#### Post date: [August 4, 2015, 8:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-the-tesla-model-3-revolutionize-amercan-driving/726537/110 "2015-08-04T20:39:39Z")
Speaking of the Broder issue, what is the Straight Dope on the Top Gear controversy? Tesla lost the libel suit because the UK judge said it wasn’t libelous. Still doesn’t mean Top Gear didn’t lie but my impression was more of TG running it like a high-performance car and Musk claiming that was misleading to compare those to the “drive like a normal person” stats.
Re: the Broder case, for journalists out there, the standards (fairly or unfairly) for accuracy are so high is there really a difference between inaccuracy through incomptence and outright lying?
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### Author:  [@Cheesesteak](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cheesesteak)
#### Post date: [August 4, 2015, 8:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-the-tesla-model-3-revolutionize-amercan-driving/726537/111 "2015-08-04T20:42:19Z")
> [@Saint\_Cad](#):
>
> I’m going to start calling this the “Mustang in Colorado” argument.
> Being a rear-wheel drive car with some power, most people who would try to drive a Ford Mustang in the snow or ice are going to end up in an accident eventually so off course it doesn’t make sense to own a Mustang in Colorado since you cannot use it 100% of the year, right?
Mustangs are going to “revolutionize Colorado driving” by providing a “real alternative” to SUVs.
See how silly that sounds?
> [@](#):
>
> Here would be my other counter-argument. What is the range of your current gascar? Mine is about 360 miles so a little above the estimated Tesla 3 range but let’s call it close enough for the experiment. How often do you leave your house with a full tank of gas and have to get more gas before you get home for the night? There may be 7-10 days out of the year where that is the case. A weeks vacation and maybe a couple of long 300+ mile one-way road trips. Let’s call it 2 weeks.
> I drive at least 100 miles per day round trip for my job. 100 miles at 20 mpg at $3 per gallon times 255 days (so just work) is $3825. And that is not including errands on the weekend. I can rent a car for less than $500/week making a savings of over $3000 per year.
Maybe 300 miles is enough range. I’m not so proud of myself that I couldn’t imagine my 500 mile threshold couldn’t be a bit conservative. My point remains that it is the battery range that will make electric cars competitive, not the availability of charging stations.
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### Author:  [@Fiveyearlurker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fiveyearlurker)
#### Post date: [August 4, 2015, 9:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-the-tesla-model-3-revolutionize-amercan-driving/726537/112 "2015-08-04T21:20:35Z")
> [@Saint\_Cad](#):
>
> Re: the Broder case, for journalists out there, the standards (fairly or unfairly) for accuracy are so high is there really a difference between inaccuracy through incomptence and outright lying?
I hadn’t read about this. Did Broder not know that his movements were being monitored?
Interesting that other journalists did the same trip and determined [it wasn’t that hard](http://money.cnn.com/2013/02/15/autos/tesla-model-s/).
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### Author:  [@Saint\_Cad](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Saint_Cad)
#### Post date: [August 4, 2015, 10:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-the-tesla-model-3-revolutionize-amercan-driving/726537/113 "2015-08-04T22:07:52Z")
> [@Cheesesteak](#):
>
> Mustangs are going to “revolutionize Colorado driving” by providing a “real alternative” to SUVs.
>
> See how silly that sounds?
Only if you misread it. The point was to counter the idea that Tesla won’t have a major market because not 100% of people can use it because of range issues. The Mustang analogy is that there shouldn’t be a major market for Mustangs in Colorado because they are unusable in the winter. Why get a car you can’t use 100% of the time?
Not saying it is a perfect analogy, but it does imply that an all-or-none argument is wrong when discussing whether or not a car model may be bought in significant numbers.
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### Author:  [@Saint\_Cad](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Saint_Cad)
#### Post date: [August 4, 2015, 10:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-the-tesla-model-3-revolutionize-amercan-driving/726537/114 "2015-08-04T22:16:29Z")
> [@Cheesesteak](#):
>
> Maybe 300 miles is enough range. I’m not so proud of myself that I couldn’t imagine my 500 mile threshold couldn’t be a bit conservative. My point remains that it is the battery range that will make electric cars competitive, not the availability of charging stations.
How often do you drive more than 300 miles without stopping at home?
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### Author:  [@Dr.Strangelove](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dr.Strangelove)
#### Post date: [August 4, 2015, 10:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-the-tesla-model-3-revolutionize-amercan-driving/726537/115 "2015-08-04T22:57:16Z")
> [@Voyager](#):
>
> Wow, I never thought of that, though one of the big advantages of my Prius is that I only need to get gas every two weeks. But I’d love to avoid going to the gas station altogether. A fully electric car would be a great time saver.
To be fair, a plug-in hybrid with ~40 mi range gets you most of the benefit. As compared to a pure (200+ mi) electric, you gain a little on long trips and lose a little on medium trips. Probably about on par, but both better than a non-plug-in vehicle.
I made a little spreadsheet of my annual driving habits, and figured I’d save about 3 hours a year. It’s not huge, but nevertheless a net positive. I drive less than the average American but I make more \>100 mile trips as a fraction. My parents live ~140 mi away, and a Model 3 is perfect for that range. It’s only trips to LA (and the very occasional out-of-state trip) that would put me over the limit.
For Californians, it’s the HOV lane stickers that were the huge time saver. They could easily save an hour a day of commute time. That’s 1000 hours after 5 years! A Tesla is a downright steal if your time has much value at all.
The stickers are apparently gone at this point, but there may be another batch before the Model 3 comes out.
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### Author:  [@foolsguinea](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/foolsguinea)
#### Post date: [August 4, 2015, 11:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-the-tesla-model-3-revolutionize-amercan-driving/726537/116 "2015-08-04T23:58:18Z")
I have to disagree with Death of Rats [(Post #100)](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=18573585&postcount=100). Diesel and gasoline exist side by side quite comfortably.
In home utility infrastructure, natural gas and electrical power exist happily side-by-side, often in the same house. My gas furnace uses an electrical ignition.
There’s no reason that trucks continuing to use internal combustion prevent cars from going electric. If anything, it means shorter lines at the diesel pump.
Oh, I guess this has been covered. Well, it’s so!
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### Author:  [@Darth\_Sensitive](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Darth_Sensitive)
#### Post date: [August 5, 2015, 2:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-the-tesla-model-3-revolutionize-amercan-driving/726537/117 "2015-08-05T02:08:48Z")
> [@Ethilrist](#):
>
> Obligatory link to Oatmeal review (spoiler: he likes it):
>
> [What it's like to own a Tesla Model S - A cartoonist's review of his magical space car - The Oatmeal](http://theoatmeal.com/comics/tesla_model_s)
God. His writing gets more and more grating every day.
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### Author:  [@Cheesesteak](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cheesesteak)
#### Post date: [August 5, 2015, 10:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-the-tesla-model-3-revolutionize-amercan-driving/726537/118 "2015-08-05T10:36:02Z")
> [@Saint\_Cad](#):
>
> How often do you drive more than 300 miles without stopping at home?
Not that often, a few times a year maybe to visit family.
Ultimately, it comes down to battery powered cars having slightly less utility in the key purpose of providing transportation.
Let’s say you buy a truck to haul stuff. You can figure once every couple of months you’ll need to haul a big load of 4x8’ sheet goods. You are presented with two options, a truck that can handle that sort of big load, and one that can’t which is $3,000 cheaper. You can save a few hundred bucks, net, by getting the small truck and renting trucks at Home Depot when you need them. However, most people won’t do that, because they’re buying a truck to handle ALL of their needs, not just some of their needs.
Until people look at electric cars and see that it meets all of their travel needs, they will be thought of the same way as Mustangs in Colorado. They’re nice to have, as long as you have a second car for all the times this car cannot manage what you need.
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### Author:  [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)
#### Post date: [August 5, 2015, 7:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-the-tesla-model-3-revolutionize-amercan-driving/726537/119 "2015-08-05T19:09:55Z")
> [@Dr.Strangelove](#):
>
> To be fair, a plug-in hybrid with ~40 mi range gets you most of the benefit. As compared to a pure (200+ mi) electric, you gain a little on long trips and lose a little on medium trips. Probably about on par, but both better than a non-plug-in vehicle.
That might be the way I go for my next car, though when I buy that I’ll be retired and my driving habits might really change…
> [@](#):
>
> For Californians, it’s the HOV lane stickers that were the huge time saver. They could easily save an hour a day of commute time. That’s 1000 hours after 5 years! A Tesla is a downright steal if your time has much value at all.
>
> The stickers are apparently gone at this point, but there may be another batch before the Model 3 comes out.
The stickers were a big incentive for people getting the first hybrids, though the Prius was the best selling car in California after the stickers ran out. So many people have stickers now that on my commute the HOV lanes are mostly slower than the regular lanes.
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### Author:  [@zwede](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/zwede)
#### Post date: [August 5, 2015, 8:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-the-tesla-model-3-revolutionize-amercan-driving/726537/120 "2015-08-05T20:29:06Z")
> [@Cheesesteak](#):
>
> Ultimately, it comes down to battery powered cars having slightly less utility in the key purpose of providing transportation.
Depends on your needs. For me, my EV has slightly more utility in providing transportation than my previous ICE. It’s currently over 100F here and the thought of having to stop at a gas station every week is not appealing at all. My EV, on the other hand, is always charged. My company has chargers that are free for employees, so I just hook it up a couple times a week and I’m set. I also get a reserved parking spot in the shade.
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