# Will the U.S. ever be a "post-Christian society"? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [September 13, 2005, 10:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-the-u-s-ever-be-a-post-christian-society/321501 "2005-09-13T22:34:10Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 4\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2005, 6:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-the-u-s-ever-be-a-post-christian-society/321501/81 "2005-10-03T18:53:43Z")
You know, it just occurred to me that the story of the fall of Adam and Eve could be interpreted as a metaphor for the biological evolution of humanity: Our presentient ancestors lived, presumably, like our nearest living relatives, the gorillas and chimps and bonobos – in the moment, without conscious anxiety about the future, and without troubling their minds with complex moral questions. But then we developed intelligent minds, and all that comes with them, good and bad. ---
**Author:** ![wonky](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wonky/32/393_2.png) [@wonky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wonky)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2005, 7:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-the-u-s-ever-be-a-post-christian-society/321501/82 "2005-10-03T19:09:48Z")
> [@Captain Amazing](#): > > The defense is that the tree was put there for them to eat from later, when they were ready. Adam and Eve chose not to wait, but that was their choice. If you create beings that can make moral choices, sometimes they’ll make the wrong ones. Where is that in the text? Was it an informed choice? Without knowledge of Good and Evil, can any choice be informed? Did the punishment fit the crime? What did God know and when did he know it? This is what _I_ know: If a parent knew leaving their child somewhere with some item was going to ruin the child’s life, the parent would be evil for leaving the child there with that item. If a parent even suspects leaving their child somewhere with some item was going to ruin the child’s life, the parent should be smacked around for leaving the child there. It’s like putting an Oreo on a pile of nuclear waste. And, again, God is supposed to be omniscient (knows what the result of the tree being there will be) and omnipotent (doesn’t need to leave the tree there at all). Nothing happens that an omniscient omnipotent god doesn’t okay. ---
**Author:** ![Anne\_Neville](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/b9e5f3/32.png) [@Anne\_Neville](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Anne_Neville)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2005, 7:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-the-u-s-ever-be-a-post-christian-society/321501/83 "2005-10-03T19:29:13Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > You know, it just occurred to me that the story of the fall of Adam and Eve could be interpreted as a metaphor for the biological evolution of humanity: Our presentient ancestors lived, presumably, like our nearest living relatives, the gorillas and chimps and bonobos – in the moment, without conscious anxiety about the future, and without troubling their minds with complex moral questions. But then we developed intelligent minds, and all that comes with them, good and bad. That’s an interesting reading. I interpret it similarly as a metaphor for growing up from childhood to adulthood. ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2005, 7:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-the-u-s-ever-be-a-post-christian-society/321501/84 "2005-10-03T19:38:08Z")
> [@jsgoddess](#): > > Where is that in the text? Well, there’s very little in the text itself…but it’s in the interpretations of the text. I mean, there’s not much in the actual text. > [@](#): > > And HaShem G-d took the man, and put him into the garden of Eden to dress it and to keep it. And HaShem G-d commanded the man, saying: ‘Of every tree of the garden thou mayest freely eat; but of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it; for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.’ Then God creates the animals and a woman to keep the man company. Then it goes on > [@](#): > > And they were both naked, the man and his wife, and were not ashamed. > Now the serpent was more subtle than any beast of the field which HaShem G-d had made. And he said unto the woman: ‘Yea, hath G-d said: Ye shall not eat of any tree of the garden?’ And the woman said unto the serpent: ‘Of the fruit of the trees of the garden we may eat; but of the fruit of the tree which is in the midst of the garden, G-d hath said: Ye shall not eat of it, neither shall ye touch it, lest ye die.’ > > And the serpent said unto the woman: ‘Ye shall not surely die; for G-d doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as G-d, knowing good and evil.’ > > And when the woman saw that the tree was good for food, and that it was a delight to the eyes, and that the tree was to be desired to make one wise, she took of the fruit thereof, and did eat; and she gave also unto her husband with her, and he did eat.And the eyes of them both were opened, and they knew that they were naked; and they sewed fig-leaves together, and made themselves girdles. > > And they heard the voice of HaShem G-d walking in the garden toward the cool of the day; and the man and his wife hid themselves from the presence of HaShem G-d amongst the trees of the garden. > > And HaShem G-d called unto the man, and said unto him: ‘Where art thou?’ And he said: ‘I heard Thy voice in the garden, and I was afraid, because I was naked; and I hid myself.’ > > And He said: ‘Who told thee that thou wast naked? Hast thou eaten of the tree, whereof I commanded thee that thou shouldest not eat?’ And the man said: ‘The woman whom Thou gavest to be with me, she gave me of the tree, and I did eat.’ And HaShem G-d said unto the woman: ‘What is this thou hast done?’ And the woman said: ‘The serpent beguiled me, and I did eat.’ > > And HaShem G-d said unto the serpent: ‘Because thou hast done this, cursed art thou from among all cattle, and from among all beasts of the field; upon thy belly shalt thou go, and dust shalt thou eat all the days of thy life. And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; they shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise their heel.’ > > Unto the woman He said: ‘I will greatly multiply thy pain and thy travail; in pain thou shalt bring forth children; and thy desire shall be to thy husband, and he shall rule over thee.’ > > And unto Adam He said: ‘Because thou hast hearkened unto the voice of thy wife, and hast eaten of the tree, of which I commanded thee, saying: Thou shalt not eat of it; cursed is the ground for thy sake; in toil shalt thou eat of it all the days of thy life. Thorns also and thistles shall it bring forth to thee; and thou shalt eat the herb of the field. In the sweat of thy face shalt thou eat bread, till thou return unto the ground; for out of it wast thou taken; for dust thou art, and unto dust shalt thou return.’ > > And the man called his wife’s name Eve; because she was the mother of all living. And HaShem G-d made for Adam and for his wife garments of skins, and clothed them. > > And HaShem G-d said: ‘Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil; and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever.’ Therefore HaShem G-d sent him forth from the garden of Eden, to till the ground from whence he was taken. So He drove out the man; and He placed at the east of the garden of Eden the cherubim, and the flaming sword which turned every way, to keep the way to the tree of life. So what do we know? Not much. We know: 1. There’s a tree that has fruit Adam isn’t supposed to eat. 2. The woman knows that she and Adam aren’t supposed to eat the fruit. 3. There’s a snake that says that eating the fruit will make you “like God, knowing good and evil” (but what does that mean?" 4. Adam and the woman eat the fruit, and become ashamed that they’re naked. 5. God finds out, and punishes the serpent by making him crawl, punishes the woman by putting Adam in charge of her and that childbirth will be hard, and punishes Adam by making him work for food. 6. Adam names his wife “Eve”=“Life”, because she’s the mother of all the living, and God makes better clothes for them 7. God notes that " the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil" and is worried that the man will eat of the tree of life and “live for ever”, so he drives him out of the garden. And that’s really all we know about the fruit. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-the-u-s-ever-be-a-post-christian-society/321501.md?page=4)