# Will the US become like Europe this century? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [June 25, 2011, 1:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-the-us-become-like-europe-this-century/586789 "2011-06-25T01:53:43Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Dahnlor](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dahnlor/32/533_2.png) [@Dahnlor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dahnlor)\ **Post date:** [June 26, 2011, 12:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-the-us-become-like-europe-this-century/586789/21 "2011-06-26T12:08:07Z")
> [@SecondJudith](#): > > I have always been under the impression that the southern half of the US is effectively bilingual, with most people speaking both English and Spanish. Is that incorrect? Not exactly, but close. New Mexico is mostly bilingual, and there is a large Hispanic population everywhere near the Mexican border, but most non-Latino Americans speak only English or are bilingual in a language other than Spanish. That said, we get exposed to Spanish a lot more than any other language (aside from English, of course), so we’re more likely to know a few simple Spanish phrases than, say, your average Norwegian. ---
**Author:** ![Spectre\_of\_Pithecanthropus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/spectre_of_pithecanthropus/32/12343_2.png) [@Spectre\_of\_Pithecanthropus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spectre_of_Pithecanthropus)\ **Post date:** [June 26, 2011, 8:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-the-us-become-like-europe-this-century/586789/22 "2011-06-26T20:50:31Z")
> [@Dahnlor](#): > > Not exactly, but close. New Mexico is mostly bilingual, and there is a large Hispanic population everywhere near the Mexican border, but most non-Latino Americans speak only English or are bilingual in a language other than Spanish. That said, we get exposed to Spanish a lot more than any other language (aside from English, of course), so we’re more likely to know a few simple Spanish phrases than, say, your average Norwegian. For sure. You do pick up quite a few words just from the signage and other advertising you see around here (L.A.). Knowledge of another Romance language, and the way these languages are structured generally, also helps. But I wouldn’t call myself bilingual with respect to Spanish. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [June 26, 2011, 8:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-the-us-become-like-europe-this-century/586789/23 "2011-06-26T20:59:42Z")
Moving thread from IMHO to Great Debates. ---
**Author:** ![jayjay](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jayjay/32/6765_2.png) [@jayjay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jayjay)\ **Post date:** [June 26, 2011, 10:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-the-us-become-like-europe-this-century/586789/24 "2011-06-26T22:55:48Z")
> [@Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](#): > > Plus Chile’s neoliberal programs under Pinochet was rather successful. Blood-drenched dictators are fine as long as they’re right-wing… ---
**Author:** ![PrettyVacant](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/49beb7/32.png) [@PrettyVacant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PrettyVacant)\ **Post date:** [June 27, 2011, 2:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-the-us-become-like-europe-this-century/586789/25 "2011-06-27T02:30:34Z")
I can see the population being more inclined to Europe but I can’t see the political class going anywhere - not while they’re funded by corproations and influenced by equally well funded lobby groups. ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [June 27, 2011, 2:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-the-us-become-like-europe-this-century/586789/26 "2011-06-27T02:40:24Z")
Will Europe stay like Europe this century? Will China become more like the US or like Europe this century…or go in some other direction? -XT ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [June 27, 2011, 3:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-the-us-become-like-europe-this-century/586789/27 "2011-06-27T03:54:24Z")
> [@Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](#): > > Plus Chile’s neoliberal programs under Pinochet was rather successful. So Pinochet overthrew the democratically elected government, installed himself as a dictator, abolished civil rights, killed thousands of people - and then turned around and enacted a liberal economic program anyway, which turned out to work fine. ---
**Author:** ![foolsguinea](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/foolsguinea/32/14751_2.png) [@foolsguinea](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/foolsguinea)\ **Post date:** [June 27, 2011, 6:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-the-us-become-like-europe-this-century/586789/28 "2011-06-27T06:41:39Z")
_Neo_-liberal. I heard once that the buildings built to Allende-era codes withstood a rather large earthquake better than the Pinochet-era buldings.[ > [@Naomi Klein](#): > > Chile’s modern seismic building code, drafted to resist earthquakes, was adopted in 1972. That year is enormously significant because it was one year before Pinochet seized power in a bloody US-backed coup. That means that if one person deserves credit for the law, it is not Friedman, or Pinochet, but Salvador Allende, Chile’s democratically elected socialist president. (In truth many Chileans deserve credit, since the laws were a response to a history of quakes, and the first law was adopted in the 1930s). > > It does seem significant, however, that the law was enacted even in the midst of a crippling economic embargo (“make the economy scream” Richard Nixon famously growled after Allende won the 1970 elections). The code was later updated in the 90s, well after Pinochet and the Chicago Boys were finally out of power and democracy was restored. > > Little wonder: as Paul Krugman points out, Friedman was ambivalent about building codes, seeing them as yet another infringement on capitalist freedom. > > As for the argument that Friedmanite policies are the reason Chileans live in “houses of brick” instead of “straw”, it’s clear that Stephens knows nothing of pre-coup Chile. The Chile of the 1960s had the best health and education systems on the continent, as well as a vibrant industrial sector and a rapidly expanding middle class. Chileans believed in their state, which is why they elected Allende to take the project even further. ]([Milton Friedman did not save Chile | Naomi Klein | The Guardian](http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/cifamerica/2010/mar/03/chile-earthquake))Of course, that’s little Naomi Klein quoting some bartender called Paul Krugman, so that all falls under the rule that liberal NY Jews just hate honest\* Kapitalismus.\* 😉 ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [June 27, 2011, 2:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-the-us-become-like-europe-this-century/586789/29 "2011-06-27T14:04:40Z")
[Salvador Allende](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Salvador_Allende): > [@](#): > > Salvador Isabelino del Sagrado Corazón de Jesús Allende Gossens (Spanish pronunciation: [salβaˈðoɾ aˈʝende ˈɣosens]; 26 June 1908 – 11 September 1973) was a Chilean physician and is generally considered the first democratically elected Marxist to become president of a country in Latin America.[1] > > Allende’s involvement in Chilean political life spanned a period of nearly forty years. As a member of the Socialist Party, he was a senator, deputy and cabinet minister. He unsuccessfully ran for the presidency in the 1952, 1958, and 1964 elections. In 1970, he won the presidency in a close three-way race. > > He adopted the policy of nationalization of industries and collectivization. Amidst strikes by the far-right Patria y Libertad and CIA opposition under the Nixon administration, protests were held in Chile against Allende’s rule.[2] The Supreme Court criticized Allende for subordination of the judicial system to serve his own political needs; and the Chamber of Deputies formally implored[3][non-primary source needed] the military to intercede and restore rule of law on 22 August 1973. Less than a month later, on 11 September Allende was deposed[4] by the military, thus ending the Popular Unity government.[5][6] As the armed forces surrounded La Moneda Palace, Allende gave his last speech vowing not to resign,[7] but he was said by the U.S. to have committed suicide later in the day.[8] In 2011, new evidence relating to the cause and manner of Allende’s death has led to an official inquiry, including an autopsy. The investigation is still underway. (See section death, below). After Allende’s ouster, General Augusto Pinochet did not return authority to the civilian government, Chile became led by a military junta, and then as a dictatorship by General Pinochet. > [@](#): > > Allende won the 1970 Chilean presidential election as leader of the Unidad Popular (“Popular Unity”) coalition. On 4 September 1970, he obtained a narrow plurality of 36.2 percent to 34.9 percent over Jorge Alessandri, a former president, with 27.8 percent going to a third candidate (Radomiro Tomic) of the Christian Democratic Party (PDC), whose electoral platform was similar to Allende’s. According to the Chilean Constitution of the time, if no presidential candidate obtained a majority of the popular vote, Congress would choose one of the two candidates with the highest number of votes as the winner. Tradition was for Congress to vote for the candidate with the highest popular vote, regardless of margin. Indeed, former president Jorge Alessandri had been elected in 1958 with only 31.6 percent of the popular vote, defeating Allende. > [@](#): > > Upon assuming power, Allende began to carry out his platform of implementing a socialist program called La vía chilena al socialismo (“the Chilean Path to Socialism”). This included nationalization of large-scale industries (notably copper mining and banking), and government administration of the health care system, educational system (with the help of an American educator, Jane A. Hobson-Gonzalez from Kokomo, Indiana), a program of free milk for children in the schools and shanty towns of Chile, and an expansion of the land seizure and redistribution already begun under his predecessor Eduardo Frei Montalva,[20] who had nationalized between one-fifth and one-quarter of all the properties listed for takeover.[21] The Allende government’s intention was to seize all holdings of more than eighty irrigated hectares.[22] Allende also intended to improve the socio-economic welfare of Chile’s poorest citizens;[citation needed] a key element was to provide employment, either in the new nationalised enterprises or on public work projects. > [@](#): > > In 1971, Chile re-established diplomatic relations with Cuba, joining Mexico and Canada in rejecting a previously-established Organization of American States convention prohibiting governments in the Western Hemisphere from establishing diplomatic relations with Cuba. Shortly afterward, Cuban president Fidel Castro made a month-long visit to Chile. Originally the visit was supposed to be one week, however Castro enjoyed Chile, and one week turned to another. The visit, in which Castro held massive rallies and gave public advice to Allende, was seen by those on the political right as proof to support their view that “The Chilean Path to Socialism” was an effort to put Chile on the same path as Cuba.[citation needed] > > October 1972 saw the first of what were to be a wave of strikes. The strikes were led first by truckers, and later by small businessmen, some (mostly professional) unions and some student groups. Other than the inevitable damage to the economy, the chief effect of the 24-day strike was to induce Allende to bring the head of the army, general Carlos Prats, into the government as Interior Minister.[24] Allende also instructed the government to begin requisitioning trucks in order to keep the nation from coming to a halt. Government supporters also helped to mobilize trucks and buses but violence served as a deterrent to full mobilization, even with police protection for the strike breakers. Allende’s actions were eventually declared unlawful by the Chilean appeals court and the government was ordered to return trucks to their owners.[28] > > Throughout this presidency racial tensions between the poor descendants of indigenous people , who supported Allende’s reforms, and the white settler elite increased.[29] > > Allende raised wages on a number of occasions throughout 1970 and 1971, but these wage hikes were negated by the in-tandem inflation of Chile’s fiat currency. Although price rises had also been high under Frei (27% a year between 1967 and 1970), a basic basket of consumer goods rose by 120% from 190 to 421 escudos in one month alone, August 1972. In the period 1970–72, while Allende was in government, exports fell 24% and imports rose 26%, with imports of food rising an estimated 149%.[30] Just to give a bit of background on Allende’s ‘Neo-liberal’ programs and initiatives. It’s surprising to hear the seizure of property and nationalization of industry called ‘neo-liberal’ but maybe I haven’t been keeping up. -XT ---
**Author:** ![jayjay](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jayjay/32/6765_2.png) [@jayjay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jayjay)\ **Post date:** [June 27, 2011, 2:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-the-us-become-like-europe-this-century/586789/30 "2011-06-27T14:08:16Z")
> [@xtisme](#): > > Just to give a bit of background on Allende’s ‘Neo-liberal’ programs and initiatives. It’s surprising to hear the seizure of property and nationalization of industry called ‘neo-liberal’ but maybe I haven’t been keeping up. > > -XT They were talking about _Pinochet’s_ neo-liberal economic policies. ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [June 27, 2011, 2:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-the-us-become-like-europe-this-century/586789/31 "2011-06-27T14:09:18Z")
Oh…I would have called those neo-fascist, but that’s just me. (I missed Qin Shi Huangdi post…sorry) -XT ---
**Author:** ![Fuji](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/a9a28c/32.png) [@Fuji](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fuji)\ **Post date:** [June 28, 2011, 3:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-the-us-become-like-europe-this-century/586789/32 "2011-06-28T15:29:46Z")
> [@IMfez](#): > > For those of you into politics, what do you think? Is the US moving closer to Europe in ideology, politics, economics, etc or will we remain distinctly different? > > \*I hope we all can talk about this in a civil manner and perhaps learn from the discussion The USA will remain distinctly different - and increasingly moreso - from Europe (and Canada, Australia, NZ, etc.) if only for one reason: the prominent role that religion, specifically Evangelical Christianity, plays in American public life. I’ve lived over here (Ireland) for over 5 years now, and I have to say that you don’t really notice how out of step the US appears in regards to its fellow wealthy, industrialized nations in this aspect until you’re not living there anymore. ---
**Author:** ![BobLibDem](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/boblibdem/32/3149_2.png) [@BobLibDem](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BobLibDem)\ **Post date:** [June 28, 2011, 5:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-the-us-become-like-europe-this-century/586789/33 "2011-06-28T17:12:59Z")
It depends on which party prevails. If the Democrats gain effective power, the US gets a bit more European. If the Republicans are in power, the US becomes India. ---
**Author:** ![Capitaine\_Zombie](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e95f7d/32.png) [@Capitaine\_Zombie](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Capitaine_Zombie)\ **Post date:** [June 28, 2011, 5:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-the-us-become-like-europe-this-century/586789/34 "2011-06-28T17:17:14Z")
> [@Fuji](#): > > The USA will remain distinctly different - and increasingly moreso - from Europe (and Canada, Australia, NZ, etc.) if only for one reason: the prominent role that religion, specifically Evangelical Christianity, plays in American public life. > > I’ve lived over here (Ireland) for over 5 years now, and I have to say that you don’t really notice how out of step the US appears in regards to its fellow wealthy, industrialized nations in this aspect until you’re not living there anymore. And Ireland’s pretty religious compared to other Western Europe countries. ---
**Author:** ![Fuji](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/a9a28c/32.png) [@Fuji](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fuji)\ **Post date:** [June 28, 2011, 5:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-the-us-become-like-europe-this-century/586789/35 "2011-06-28T17:26:55Z")
> [@Capitaine\_Zombie](#): > > And Ireland’s pretty religious compared to other Western Europe countries. True dat. Three years in a row I forgot to buy booze _before_ Good Friday.:smack: 😉 I followed the election campaign here earlier this year (first time I ever voted in a non-US election), and I don’t recall any politicians grandstanding on the Bible. Very un-American of them. ---
**Author:** ![Horden\_Boy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/8e7dd6/32.png) [@Horden\_Boy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Horden_Boy)\ **Post date:** [June 28, 2011, 5:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-the-us-become-like-europe-this-century/586789/36 "2011-06-28T17:44:36Z")
The USA has all the feel of the teenager who thinks he knows it all, whereas Europe is the mature parent. Just like any teenager, the energy is their, but the attitudes are basically selfish, naive and bigoted. The parent still makes mistakes but understands the value of helping each other, social awareness, that being self-centered only leads others to dislike you (no matter how much you like yourself). The arrogance of the USA is best summed up in sport: Green Bay Packers - ‘World’ Champions, San Francisco Giants - ‘World’ Champions, Dallas Mavericks - ‘World’ Champions. OK - they’re all champions, even North American champions, but ‘World’? No way - hardly anyone else in the world cares about these parochial sports. Wake up and grow up, USA! Join the rest of the world, don’t try to control it, rule over it, crow over it - the rest of the world is heartily sick of your arrogance (and there is no jealousy involved - why would Norwegians, Swedes, Germans, etc be jealous of a nation with lower quality of life, lower living standards, more poverty, etc?). Soon, China, India and , possibly, even Brazil, will be economically more important. Grow up! ---
**Author:** ![Horden\_Boy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/8e7dd6/32.png) [@Horden\_Boy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Horden_Boy)\ **Post date:** [June 28, 2011, 5:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-the-us-become-like-europe-this-century/586789/37 "2011-06-28T17:49:59Z")
> [@Capitaine\_Zombie](#): > > And Ireland’s pretty religious compared to other Western Europe countries. 'Religious"? ---
**Author:** ![Horden\_Boy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/8e7dd6/32.png) [@Horden\_Boy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Horden_Boy)\ **Post date:** [June 28, 2011, 5:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-the-us-become-like-europe-this-century/586789/38 "2011-06-28T17:51:49Z")
> [@Fuji](#): > > The USA will remain distinctly different - and increasingly moreso - from Europe (and Canada, Australia, NZ, etc.) if only for one reason: the prominent role that religion, specifically Evangelical Christianity, plays in American public life. > > I’ve lived over here (Ireland) for over 5 years now, and I have to say that you don’t really notice how out of step the US appears in regards to its fellow wealthy, industrialized nations in this aspect until you’re not living there anymore. Even though much of the Christianity is easy-believism and prosperity gospel. Nevertheless, it is good to live in a country where no-one sneers at you because you are a believer unlike, say, the UK - unless, of course, you are a muslim, when hardly anybody trusts you if you live in the USA. ---
**Author:** ![Horden\_Boy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/8e7dd6/32.png) [@Horden\_Boy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Horden_Boy)\ **Post date:** [June 28, 2011, 5:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-the-us-become-like-europe-this-century/586789/39 "2011-06-28T17:55:23Z")
> [@Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](#): > > I hope not, the US should retain military power. Might is right??? ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [June 28, 2011, 5:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-the-us-become-like-europe-this-century/586789/40 "2011-06-28T17:59:31Z")
> [@Rand\_Rover](#): > > I think a lot of it depends on whether the fiscal conservatives can break from the social conservatives to appeal to a wider audience. Looking at the Tea Party . . . don’t get your hopes up. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-the-us-become-like-europe-this-century/586789.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-the-us-become-like-europe-this-century/586789.md?page=3)