# Will the US become like Europe this century? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [June 25, 2011, 1:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-the-us-become-like-europe-this-century/586789 "2011-06-25T01:53:43Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [June 28, 2011, 6:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-the-us-become-like-europe-this-century/586789/41 "2011-06-28T18:00:44Z")
> [@Horden\_Boy](#): > > Might is right??? Might is a good thing to have. Usually. (People are always nagging you to use your might on **their** behalf and so on, and that leads to all kinds of headaches . . . and even if they don’t **ask,** the tempation is ever-present . . .) And, of course, like anything that is good to have, might might or might not be worth what it costs. ---
**Author:** ![foolsguinea](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/foolsguinea/32/14751_2.png) [@foolsguinea](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/foolsguinea)\ **Post date:** [June 28, 2011, 6:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-the-us-become-like-europe-this-century/586789/42 "2011-06-28T18:42:25Z")
> [@Horden\_Boy](#): > > The arrogance of the USA is best summed up in sport: Green Bay Packers - ‘World’ Champions, San Francisco Giants - ‘World’ Champions, Dallas Mavericks - ‘World’ Champions. OK - they’re all champions, even North American champions, but ‘World’? No way - hardly anyone else in the world cares about these parochial sports. Wake up and grow up, USA! Join the rest of the world, don’t try to control it, rule over it, crow over it… I agree with this post, but have snipped this much to nitpick a point. Baseball is huge in a few other countries, basketball has a modest international following. What’s silly is that in the USA the nationally contained leagues are treated as if they were the whole thing. ---
**Author:** ![An\_Gadai](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/d6d6ee/32.png) [@An\_Gadai](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/An_Gadai)\ **Post date:** [June 28, 2011, 11:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-the-us-become-like-europe-this-century/586789/43 "2011-06-28T23:50:45Z")
> [@Fuji](#): > > True dat. Three years in a row I forgot to buy booze _before_ Good Friday.:smack: 😉 > > I followed the election campaign here earlier this year (first time I ever voted in a non-US election), and I don’t recall any politicians grandstanding on the Bible. Very un-American of them. Was gonna say, although there are plenty of religious people in this country, abortion excepted, it doesn’t really play all that big a part in politics. I’ve never lived in the US, but I’ve been there numerous times and my girlfriend is American. I think superficially our societies are very, very, similar but when you go below the facade there are numerous significant differences in the two countries’ cultures, political and otherwise. ---
**Author:** ![Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/f04885/32.png) [@Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Qin_Shi_Huangdi)\ **Post date:** [June 29, 2011, 12:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-the-us-become-like-europe-this-century/586789/44 "2011-06-29T00:33:13Z")
> [@BobLibDem](#): > > It depends on which party prevails. If the Democrats gain effective power, the US gets a bit more European. If the Republicans are in power, the US becomes India. Erhm India was under the control of the INC (which was in many ways quasi-socialist) for decades > [@Horden\_Boy](#): > > Might is right??? No America’s world power is necessary for world peace. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [June 29, 2011, 2:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-the-us-become-like-europe-this-century/586789/45 "2011-06-29T02:34:12Z")
> [@Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](#): > > No America’s world power is necessary for world peace. 😕 There is **no country left on Earth** that needs American military protection. Not even South Korea. ---
**Author:** ![Kobal2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kobal2/32/20_2.png) [@Kobal2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kobal2)\ **Post date:** [June 29, 2011, 6:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-the-us-become-like-europe-this-century/586789/46 "2011-06-29T06:49:52Z")
> [@Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](#): > > No America’s world power is necessary for world peace. Considering America’s in three wars right now, two of which it initiated… yeah. I think someone saying America’s world power is deleterious to world peace would be closer to the mark. ETA: probably still dead wrong, but you know. At least in the vicinity of what’s going on in this reality. And a pre-emptive retort to your probable retort: waging war “for peace” is like fucking for chastity. ---
**Author:** ![Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/f04885/32.png) [@Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Qin_Shi_Huangdi)\ **Post date:** [June 29, 2011, 4:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-the-us-become-like-europe-this-century/586789/47 "2011-06-29T16:21:36Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > 😕 There is **no country left on Earth** that needs American military protection. Not even South Korea. American power is preventing Russia and China from engaging in revanchism by trying to take control of areas of their former empires (such as Georgia and North Korea respectively). > [@Kobal2](#): > > Considering America’s in three wars right now, two of which it initiated… yeah. I think someone saying America’s world power is deleterious to world peace would be closer to the mark. ETA: probably still dead wrong, but you know. At least in the vicinity of what’s going on in this reality. > > And a pre-emptive retort to your probable retort: waging war “for peace” is like fucking for chastity. Afghanistan was a defensive war. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [June 29, 2011, 9:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-the-us-become-like-europe-this-century/586789/48 "2011-06-29T21:57:26Z")
> [@Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](#): > > American power is preventing Russia and China from engaging in revanchism by trying to take control of areas of their former empires (such as Georgia and North Korea respectively). Let China **have** NK! **Please!** Immense relief all around! North Koreans get to eat and South Koreans get to stop worrying they’ll ever have to feed them! As for Georgia, when did the Russians even ask for it back? They’ve got their hands full with Chechnya right not, and no thanks to America. ---
**Author:** ![Kobal2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kobal2/32/20_2.png) [@Kobal2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kobal2)\ **Post date:** [June 29, 2011, 10:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-the-us-become-like-europe-this-century/586789/49 "2011-06-29T22:10:51Z")
> [@Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](#): > > Afghanistan was a defensive war. Like I said, two of which it initiated. I got no beef with Afghanistan, neither does most of Europe (my country even sent troops out there). But contrary to how the saying goes, sometimes one out of three is that bad. ---
**Author:** ![Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/f04885/32.png) [@Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Qin_Shi_Huangdi)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2011, 12:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-the-us-become-like-europe-this-century/586789/50 "2011-06-30T00:35:43Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > Let China **have** NK! **Please!** Immense relief all around! North Koreans get to eat and South Koreans get to stop worrying they’ll ever have to feed them! And thus pull their own Drag Nach Osten and prevent the reunification of the Korean people. Rather war with China than China once again oppressing the Korean minjoek. > [@Kobal2](#): > > Like I said, two of which it initiated. I got no beef with Afghanistan, neither does most of Europe (my country even sent troops out there). Due to NATO obligations./ ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2011, 1:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-the-us-become-like-europe-this-century/586789/51 "2011-06-30T01:29:17Z")
> [@Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](#): > > And thus pull their own Drag Nach Osten and prevent the reunification of the Korean people. Rather war with China than China once again oppressing the Korean minjoek. They cannot be more oppressed under PRC rule than they are now. I’d like to see Korea reunified and I’m sure South Koreans are generally for it, but what it would cost! It’s much worse than East Germany, there’s a whole generation of people whose physical **and mental** development has been stunted by malnutrition. Really integrating NK into a modern industrial society would take at least, well, a generation, and meantime whoever has it has to run it a loss. Which should be the South Koreans’ job, family ties and all that, but China could absorb the cost better. ---
**Author:** ![Kobal2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kobal2/32/20_2.png) [@Kobal2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kobal2)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2011, 2:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-the-us-become-like-europe-this-century/586789/52 "2011-06-30T02:00:25Z")
> [@Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](#): > > Due to NATO obligations./ I’m… not quite sure what that has to do with anything, but sure, whatever. My point is that America’s military might has, in fact, demonstrably increased the total amount of warfare currently going on in the world, by a factor of two massacres of underdeveloped little tinpot dictatorships. Which, IME, tends to be what happens when a nation has a very large and expensive but idle military, especially when there’s no credible opposition or counter-balance. You’ll see that in history books, and you’ll see that in every strategy game out there. First you build a military to protect yourself, then you build it further and further up to match those of the neighbours and then some to guarantee victory. Then you find yourself with a large edge over the neighbours and go “Hmmm…” I would have thought the idea that “Si vis pacem, para bellum” and that large armies create peace would have died with the outbreak of WW1 if nothing else. As Blackadder put it: > [@](#): > > **Captain Blackadder** : You see, Baldrick, in order to prevent war in Europe, two superblocs developed: us, the French and the Russians on one side, and the Germans and Austro-Hungary on the other. The idea was to have two vast opposing armies, each acting as the other’s deterrent. That way there could never be a war. > **Private Baldrick** : But, this is a sort of a war, isn’t it, sir? > **Captain Blackadder** : Yes, that’s right. You see, there was a tiny flaw in the plan. > **Private Baldrick** : What was that, sir? > **Captain Blackadder** : It was bollocks. ---
**Author:** ![BMalion](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/e274bd/32.png) [@BMalion](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BMalion)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2011, 1:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-the-us-become-like-europe-this-century/586789/53 "2011-06-30T13:05:06Z")
> [@Fuji](#): > > The USA will remain distinctly different - and increasingly moreso - from Europe (and Canada, Australia, NZ, etc.) if only for one reason: the prominent role that religion, specifically Evangelical Christianity, plays in American public life. > > I’ve lived over here (Ireland) for over 5 years now, and I have to say that you don’t really notice how out of step the US appears in regards to its fellow wealthy, industrialized nations in this aspect until you’re not living there anymore. I’ll pray for you. 😃 ---
**Author:** ![BobLibDem](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/boblibdem/32/3149_2.png) [@BobLibDem](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BobLibDem)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2011, 2:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-the-us-become-like-europe-this-century/586789/54 "2011-06-30T14:03:50Z")
> [@Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](#): > > American power is preventing Russia and China from engaging in revanchism by trying to take control of areas of their former empires (such as Georgia and North Korea respectively). What precisely could or would the US do if China wanted to annex N Korea? ---
**Author:** ![Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/f04885/32.png) [@Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Qin_Shi_Huangdi)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2011, 3:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-the-us-become-like-europe-this-century/586789/55 "2011-06-30T15:38:12Z")
> [@BobLibDem](#): > > What precisely could or would the US do if China wanted to annex N Korea? The US can send an ultimatum and draw a line at the Yalu River. ---
**Author:** ![jayjay](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jayjay/32/6765_2.png) [@jayjay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jayjay)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2011, 3:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-the-us-become-like-europe-this-century/586789/56 "2011-06-30T15:53:55Z")
> [@Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](#): > > The US can send an ultimatum and draw a line at the Yalu River. Why? I’d think the PRC would be considered a more reasonable ruler of NK than the Kims are, from a US foreign policy perspective. After all, the Chinese are practically capitalists now. The thing is, though, that the PRC doesn’t WANT NK…NK has millions of starving people, no infrastructure, no money, no food, god only knows what kind of chemical and radiological environmental disasters brewing…who WOULD want that? ETA: Also, Protip: The US isn’t going to war to stop the Communist dominos anymore. Ever. The Cold War is over. ---
**Author:** ![BobLibDem](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/boblibdem/32/3149_2.png) [@BobLibDem](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BobLibDem)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2011, 4:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-the-us-become-like-europe-this-century/586789/57 "2011-06-30T16:19:43Z")
> [@Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](#): > > The US can send an ultimatum and draw a line at the Yalu River. And that would matter why, exactly? The US could no more stop a Chinese invasion of North Korea than the Chinese could stop a US invasion of Ontario. And why would the US want to? Would you rather deal with the Chinese or the Krazy Kims? Would you rather the Chinese build up the North Korean infrastructure and feed its starving population or the US does it? If I’m the US ambassador to China I start every meeting saying “Yessir, you guys could march right into Pyongyang. March right in there. Take it right over.” ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2011, 4:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-the-us-become-like-europe-this-century/586789/58 "2011-06-30T16:40:55Z")
> [@Fuji](#): > > The USA will remain distinctly different - and increasingly moreso - from Europe (and Canada, Australia, NZ, etc.) if only for one reason: the prominent role that religion, specifically Evangelical Christianity, plays in American public life. > > I’ve lived over here (Ireland) for over 5 years now, and I have to say that you don’t really notice how out of step the US appears in regards to its fellow wealthy, industrialized nations in this aspect until you’re not living there anymore. Doesn’t the RCC still have a pretty heavy social/cultural/political presence in Ireland? How is that different from Evangelical influence in America? ---
**Author:** ![An\_Gadai](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/d6d6ee/32.png) [@An\_Gadai](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/An_Gadai)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2011, 7:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-the-us-become-like-europe-this-century/586789/59 "2011-06-30T19:20:45Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > Doesn’t the RCC still have a pretty heavy social/cultural/political presence in Ireland? How is that different from Evangelical influence in America? See post #43. It’s just a lot different, in a lot of ways. Religious talk doesn’t go too far in politics anymore, references to god etc are virtually nonexistent amongst elected politicians. Ok, we have a ways to go before we’re fully secular, the aforementioned religiously-founded prohibition on abortion and also schools are overly tied into religious demominations but really the RCC’s importance has withered on the vine. For example, we have same-sex civil partnerships now. All major parties support this and some would prefer we go further and bring in full civil marriage. The Evangelicals have political mileage in the US in a way the RCC had perhaps a generation ago, maybe longer. ---
**Author:** ![Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/f04885/32.png) [@Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Qin_Shi_Huangdi)\ **Post date:** [July 1, 2011, 1:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-the-us-become-like-europe-this-century/586789/60 "2011-07-01T01:22:30Z")
> [@jayjay](#): > > Why? I’d think the PRC would be considered a more reasonable ruler of NK than the Kims are, from a US foreign policy perspective. After all, the Chinese are practically capitalists now. > > The thing is, though, that the PRC doesn’t WANT NK…NK has millions of starving people, no infrastructure, no money, no food, god only knows what kind of chemical and radiological environmental disasters brewing…who WOULD want that? > > ETA: Also, Protip: The US isn’t going to war to stop the Communist dominos anymore. Ever. The Cold War is over. > [@BobLibDem](#): > > And that would matter why, exactly? The US could no more stop a Chinese invasion of North Korea than the Chinese could stop a US invasion of Ontario. And why would the US want to? Would you rather deal with the Chinese or the Krazy Kims? Would you rather the Chinese build up the North Korean infrastructure and feed its starving population or the US does it? If I’m the US ambassador to China I start every meeting saying “Yessir, you guys could march right into Pyongyang. March right in there. Take it right over.” And the northern half of Korea shall run under the sway of Beijing. It will prevent the reunification of the Korean people, which has already been delayed too long. In addition the US can certainly stop a Red Chinese invasion of Korea, we already have 50,000 troops in Korea to serve as a tripwire force, and in a war against China we can count NATO, the ROK, Japan, and India as allies. > [@An\_Gadai](#): > > See post #43. It’s just a lot different, in a lot of ways. Religious talk doesn’t go too far in politics anymore, references to god etc are virtually nonexistent amongst elected politicians. Ok, we have a ways to go before we’re fully secular, the aforementioned religiously-founded prohibition on abortion and also schools are overly tied into religious demominations but really the RCC’s importance has withered on the vine. For example, we have same-sex civil partnerships now. All major parties support this and some would prefer we go further and bring in full civil marriage. The Evangelicals have political mileage in the US in a way the RCC had perhaps a generation ago, maybe longer. Thankfully though abortion is still banned and ironically in Northern Ireland the Protestants and the Catholics worked together to keep it banned. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-the-us-become-like-europe-this-century/586789.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-the-us-become-like-europe-this-century/586789.md?page=4)