# Will the US become like Europe this century? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [June 25, 2011, 1:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-the-us-become-like-europe-this-century/586789 "2011-06-25T01:53:43Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 15\ **Page:** 6
**Author:** ![New\_Deal\_Democrat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/9d8465/32.png) [@New\_Deal\_Democrat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/New_Deal_Democrat)\ **Post date:** [July 6, 2011, 4:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-the-us-become-like-europe-this-century/586789/101 "2011-07-06T16:46:51Z")
> [@Capitaine\_Zombie](#): > > I’m not calling you a troll, but reading this, I wish you were one. I wish you gave me a rational rebuttal. You probably wish you could give me one too. ---
**Author:** ![New\_Deal\_Democrat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/9d8465/32.png) [@New\_Deal\_Democrat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/New_Deal_Democrat)\ **Post date:** [July 6, 2011, 4:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-the-us-become-like-europe-this-century/586789/102 "2011-07-06T16:55:01Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > Works well enough in India and Japan, doesn’t it? India has a low per capita gross domestic product, but also a low murder rate. I do not believe Japan is considered to be a social democracy, but the Japanese do have a low crime rate, and a high standard of living. India and Japan both have populations that have practiced urban civilization for at least three thousand years, and agriculture for many more thousand years than that. Agriculture and urban civilization exert different population pressures than a hunter gatherer existence. Blacks in the United States and Europe are chiefly descended from the Bantu. These only began practicing agriculture about two and a half thousand years ago. Large numbers of them only began living in cities during the twentieth century. Differences between blacks on the one hand, and Caucasians and Asians on the other hand in terms of average ability, personality, and character can be explained by the number of generations that separate each group form a paleolithic existence. ---
**Author:** ![carm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/c2a13f/32.png) [@carm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carm)\ **Post date:** [July 6, 2011, 5:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-the-us-become-like-europe-this-century/586789/103 "2011-07-06T17:38:47Z")
Another thread ruined. Oh well. . ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [July 6, 2011, 5:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-the-us-become-like-europe-this-century/586789/104 "2011-07-06T17:40:39Z")
> [@New\_Deal\_Democrat](#): > > Show me a black run country with a low crime rate, a well functioning economy, and a representative democracy. South Africa’s got two out of three now, just give 'em time to work on the crime problem. ---
**Author:** ![Kobal2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kobal2/32/20_2.png) [@Kobal2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kobal2)\ **Post date:** [July 6, 2011, 6:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-the-us-become-like-europe-this-century/586789/105 "2011-07-06T18:12:45Z")
> [@New\_Deal\_Democrat](#): > > Differences between blacks on the one hand, and Caucasians and Asians on the other hand in terms of average ability, personality, and character can be explained by the number of generations that separate each group form a paleolithic existence. What the \*FUCK \*? ---
**Author:** ![foolsguinea](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/foolsguinea/32/14751_2.png) [@foolsguinea](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/foolsguinea)\ **Post date:** [July 6, 2011, 6:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-the-us-become-like-europe-this-century/586789/106 "2011-07-06T18:53:59Z")
> [@New\_Deal\_Democrat](#): > > Social Democracy only seems to work in countries where nearly everyone is white. I hope European Social Democrats discover that in time. Blacks are more likely to game the system, as they did in the United States with the War on Poverty. Islamic immigrants to Europe have values that are inimical to the combination of secularism and liberal Christianity that exists there. I’m really offended that you think poor whites don’t game the system. > [@BrainGlutton](#): > > What “gaming”? The [War on Poverty](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/War_on_poverty) failed because the Vietnam War sucked the funding. (There was that [Cloward-Piven](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cloward%E2%80%93Piven_strategy) idea, but it was no welfare-recipient’s idea, and the point was to **crash** the system, not “game” it, and, _pace_ Glenn Beck, nobody to this day has ever actually **tried** it in any form.) Well, once Starve the Beast [del]bears fruit[/del] blasts all the buds off the trees, we’ll see what happens. > [@Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](#): > > Then why didn’t the welfare programs alleviate poverty after the Vietnam War ended? Indeed welfare has destroyed black families by encouraging mothers not to marry but have children to milk the welfare system to the fullest. > [@Guinastasia](#): > > Are you serious? I grew up on the right, this is a standard line. Has been for a generation. > [@New\_Deal\_Democrat](#): > > India and Japan both have populations that have practiced urban civilization for at least three thousand years, and agriculture for many more thousand years than that. Agriculture and urban civilization exert different population pressures than a hunter gatherer existence. Whoa whoa whoa. You know something about Japan before 500 CE? There are a lot of archaeologists who would love that info! > [@](#): > > Blacks in the United States and Europe are chiefly descended from the Bantu. These only began practicing agriculture about two and a half thousand years ago. Large numbers of them only began living in cities during the twentieth century. And each generation is born ignorant, each man becoming a product of his immediate environment. This is irrelevant. In any case, US blacks have a lot of Anglo-Saxon, Cherokee, & Celtic ancestry. Granted, I don’t know that the Gaelic-speaking peoples would pass your “been agrarian long enough” test– [expletive deleted] Oh, no! You’ve got me convinced! The Irish must be disenfranchised immediately for the good of all! > [@](#): > > Differences between blacks on the one hand, and Caucasians and Asians on the other hand in terms of average ability, personality, and character can be explained by the number of generations that separate each group form a paleolithic existence. No, seriously, this is twaddle. ---
**Author:** ![SecretaryofEvil](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e95f7d/32.png) [@SecretaryofEvil](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SecretaryofEvil)\ **Post date:** [July 6, 2011, 7:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-the-us-become-like-europe-this-century/586789/107 "2011-07-06T19:21:14Z")
> [@New\_Deal\_Democrat](#): > > Show me a black run country with a low crime rate, a well functioning economy, and a representative democracy. Botswana ---
**Author:** ![New\_Deal\_Democrat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/9d8465/32.png) [@New\_Deal\_Democrat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/New_Deal_Democrat)\ **Post date:** [July 6, 2011, 7:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-the-us-become-like-europe-this-century/586789/108 "2011-07-06T19:54:36Z")
> [@New\_Deal\_Democrat](#): > > Show me a black run country with a low crime rate, a well functioning economy, and a representative democracy. > [@SecretaryofEvil](#): > > Botswana In Botswana the estimated murder rate is 12 per 100,000 inhabitants. In the United States it is 5.0. In India it is 2.8. > **[List of countries by intentional homicide rate](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_intentional_homicide_rate)** > > The list of countries by homicide rate is derived from United Nations Office on Drugs and Crime (UNODC) data, and is expressed in number of deaths per 100,000 population per year. For example, a homicide rate of 30 out of 100,000 is presented in the table as "30", and corresponds to 0.03% of the population dying by homicide. The reliability of underlying national murder rate data may vary. Only UNODC-vetted data is used in the main table to maintain consistency. In some cases, i Homicide rates ... The per capita gross domestic product is $14,000. In the United States it is $47,200. In India it is $3,500. [https://www.cia.gov/library/publications/the-world-factbook/rankorder/2004rank.html?countryName=Botswana&countryCode=bc®ionCode=afr&rank=84#bc](https://www.cia.gov/library/publications/the-world-factbook/rankorder/2004rank.html?countryName=Botswana&countryCode=bc®ionCode=afr&rank=84#bc) All three countries have regular, contested elections. ---
**Author:** ![An\_Gadai](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/d6d6ee/32.png) [@An\_Gadai](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/An_Gadai)\ **Post date:** [July 6, 2011, 8:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-the-us-become-like-europe-this-century/586789/109 "2011-07-06T20:04:34Z")
> [@New\_Deal\_Democrat](#): > > Show me a black run country with a low crime rate, a well functioning economy, and a representative democracy. Ok I’ll bite, São Tomé & Principe. ---
**Author:** ![New\_Deal\_Democrat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/9d8465/32.png) [@New\_Deal\_Democrat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/New_Deal_Democrat)\ **Post date:** [July 6, 2011, 8:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-the-us-become-like-europe-this-century/586789/110 "2011-07-06T20:05:15Z")
> [@foolsguinea](#): > > You know something about Japan before 500 CE? There are a lot of archaeologists who would love that info! Around 300 BC, the **Yayoi** people began to enter the Japanese islands, intermingling with the Jōmon.[2 > **[Japan](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Japan)** > > Japan\[a\] is an island country in East Asia. Located in the Pacific Ocean off the northeast coast of the Asian mainland, it is bordered to the west by the Sea of Japan and extends from the Sea of Okhotsk in the north to the East China Sea in the south. The Japanese archipelago consists of four major islands alongside 14,121 smaller islands, covering 377,975 square kilometers (145,937 sq mi). Divided into 47 administrative prefectures and eight traditional regions, about 75% of the country's ... The Yayoi period (弥生時代, Yayoi jidai?) is an Iron Age era in the history of Japan traditionally dated 300 BC to 300 AD.[1] It is named after the neighbourhood of Tokyo where archaeologists first uncovered artifacts and features from that era. Distinguishing characteristics of the Yayoi period include the appearance of new pottery styles and the start of an intensive rice agriculture in paddy fields. The Yayoi followed the Jōmon period (14,000–300 BCE) and Yayoi culture flourished in a geographic area from southern Kyūshū to northern Honshū. A new study used the Accelerator mass spectrometry method to analyze carbonized remains on pottery and wooden stakes, and discovered that these were dated back to 900–800 BCE, 500 years earlier than previously believed.[2 > **[Yayoi period](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yayoi_period)** > > The Yayoi period (弥生時代, Yayoi jidai) (c. 300 BC – 300 AD) is one of the major historical periods of the Japanese archipelago. It is generally defined as the era between the beginning of food production in Japan and the emergence of keyhole-shaped burial mounds (前方後円墳, zenpō-kōen-fun). Chronologically, it spans from around the 10th century BCE or 9th–8th century BCE to the mid-3rd century CE. > Following the Jōmon period, which was characterized by a hunter-gatherer economy, the Yayoi period marked... This pushes back urban civilization for the Japanese to 900 BC. The Yayoi are believed to have immigrated to Korea, where they had a tradition of urban civilization going back even further. By contrast the Bantu never developed cities. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [July 6, 2011, 8:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-the-us-become-like-europe-this-century/586789/111 "2011-07-06T20:17:33Z")
> [@New\_Deal\_Democrat](#): > > Social Democracy only seems to work in countries where nearly everyone is white. I hope European Social Democrats discover that in time. Blacks are more likely to game the system, as they did in the United States with the War on Poverty. Islamic immigrants to Europe have values that are inimical to the combination of secularism and liberal Christianity that exists there. **New Deal Democrat** , I’ve told you over and over not to hijack threads with your racial theories. This is yet another formal warning. You continue to ignore moderator instructions, so the staff may review your posting privileges. > [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > :rolleyes: Oh, please. Why don’t just you come out and admit you want everyone darker skinned than you enslaved or rounded up into death camps? After all, they’re all subhuman and Enemies of Freedom, right? > [@Capitaine\_Zombie](#): > > I’m not calling you a troll, but reading this, I wish you were one. In the future, report objectionable posts rather than responding with borderline insults. ---
**Author:** ![David42](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/5f9b8f/32.png) [@David42](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/David42)\ **Post date:** [July 6, 2011, 9:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-the-us-become-like-europe-this-century/586789/112 "2011-07-06T21:51:19Z")
> [@Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](#): > > The economic reforms took off only then. And if such reforms hadn’t been implemented Chile would have been another Venezuela or Bolivia with Allende as Chavez or Moreles, > > And certainly the US spending less than double of France isn’t saying that the US is some sort of imperialistic superpower (at least exceptionally so compared to other countries). WOuldn’t it look that way if it was in terms of dollars spent rather than percentage of GDP? ---
**Author:** ![SecretaryofEvil](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e95f7d/32.png) [@SecretaryofEvil](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SecretaryofEvil)\ **Post date:** [July 6, 2011, 10:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-the-us-become-like-europe-this-century/586789/113 "2011-07-06T22:02:40Z")
> [@New\_Deal\_Democrat](#): > > In Botswana the estimated murder rate is 12 per 100,000 inhabitants. In the United States it is 5.0. In India it is 2.8. > [List of countries by intentional homicide rate - Wikipedia](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_intentional_homicide_rate) > > The per capita gross domestic product is $14,000. In the United States it is $47,200. In India it is $3,500. > [https://www.cia.gov/library/publications/the-world-factbook/rankorder/2004rank.html?countryName=Botswana&countryCode=bc®ionCode=afr&rank=84#bc](https://www.cia.gov/library/publications/the-world-factbook/rankorder/2004rank.html?countryName=Botswana&countryCode=bc®ionCode=afr&rank=84#bc) > > All three countries have regular, contested elections. Russia is a mostly white country, and their murder rate is 15 per 100,000. India is a country with a tradition of agriculture and civilization that dates earlier than Western Europe. Bulgaria is a mostly white country with a per capita income lower than Botswana. [Bulgaria - Wikipedia](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bulgaria#Economy) So I’d say there were some flaws in your thesis. ---
**Author:** ![New\_Deal\_Democrat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/9d8465/32.png) [@New\_Deal\_Democrat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/New_Deal_Democrat)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2011, 12:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-the-us-become-like-europe-this-century/586789/114 "2011-07-07T00:13:38Z")
> [@SecretaryofEvil](#): > > Russia is a mostly white country, and their murder rate is 15 per 100,000. India is a country with a tradition of agriculture and civilization that dates earlier than Western Europe. Bulgaria is a mostly white country with a per capita income lower than Botswana. [Bulgaria - Wikipedia](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bulgaria#Economy) > > So I’d say there were some flaws in your thesis. My thesis is that the longer a population has practiced agriculture and urban civilization the lower its crime rate is likely to be, and the higher its average intelligence. I am not claiming a one to one correspondence in every case. Russia’s high murder rate is probably due to the social and economic dislocations that followed the fall of Communism. Nevertheless, it is still much lower than the murder rate in South Africa. Bulgaria is also a former Communist country. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2011, 12:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-the-us-become-like-europe-this-century/586789/115 "2011-07-07T00:15:37Z")
> [@New\_Deal\_Democrat](#): > > My thesis is that the longer a population has practiced agriculture and urban civilization the lower its crime rate is likely to be, and the higher its average intelligence. Again, not relevant to this thread. Take this tangent elsewhere - and that goes for people who want to dispute this argument as well. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-the-us-become-like-europe-this-century/586789.md?page=5)