# Will there be a be-liberal-or-else movement among Democrats?? **URL:** \ **Category:** Politics & Elections\ **Created:** [December 6, 2014, 4:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-there-be-a-be-liberal-or-else-movement-among-democrats/706507 "2014-12-06T16:54:18Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![typoink](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/ecb155/32.png) [@typoink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/typoink)\ **Post date:** [December 9, 2014, 4:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-there-be-a-be-liberal-or-else-movement-among-democrats/706507/21 "2014-12-09T04:10:48Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > 😕 I have never yet heard any Tea Partier say anything that could be so construed. It’s a muddy thing, but I have. They tend to hold conservative views on social issues, but think social issues shouldn’t be heavily legislated. A sort of “I don’t care what disgusting things those gays do in their own homes” or “those addicts can ruin their lives however they want” form of tolerance. This view comes less from Tea Party “leaders” but more from random folks I’ve known that tend to affiliate with the label. ---
**Author:** ![adaher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@adaher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adaher)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2014, 12:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-there-be-a-be-liberal-or-else-movement-among-democrats/706507/22 "2014-12-10T00:57:49Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > I dunno about that. There was not so much factionalism among liberals (among Democrats yes, among liberals no) during the decades from FDR to Nixon, when New Deal liberalism was generally accepted as the default-consensus position in American politics, and anti-New-Deal conservatives were outliers and cranks. That’s very wrong. Civil rights is an obvious example, but assuming you were talking strictly about the economic agenda, the Southern Dems were such a pain in FDR’s ass even on that count that he mounted a personal campaign to defeat as many of them as possible in the 1938 midterms. His effort was a total failure. > **[1938 United States Senate elections](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_Senate_elections,_1938)** > > Alben Barkley > Democratic > Alben Barkley > Democratic > The 1938 United States Senate elections occurred in the middle of Franklin D. Roosevelt's second term. The 32 seats of Class 3 were contested in regular elections, and special elections were held to fill vacancies. The Republicans gained eight seats from the Democrats, though this occurred after multiple Democratic gains since the 1932 election, leading to the Democrats retaining a commanding lead over the Republicans with more than two-third... There has never been a majority liberal Congress and there probably will never be one. Liberals love to cite all the great things they’ve accomplished, but when you compare their record to the record of left parties in Europe, it’s actually pretty meager. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2014, 3:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-there-be-a-be-liberal-or-else-movement-among-democrats/706507/23 "2014-12-10T03:44:30Z")
> [@adaher](#): > > That’s very wrong. Civil rights is an obvious example, but assuming you were talking strictly about the economic agenda, the Southern Dems were such a pain in FDR’s ass even on that count that he mounted a personal campaign to defeat as many of them as possible in the 1938 midterms. His effort was a total failure. > > [1938 United States Senate elections - Wikipedia](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_Senate_elections,_1938) That’s why I said “(among Democrats yes, among liberals no)”. ---
**Author:** ![adaher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@adaher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adaher)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2014, 2:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-there-be-a-be-liberal-or-else-movement-among-democrats/706507/24 "2014-12-10T14:47:26Z")
Ah, I get it. But Democrats can’t govern without moderates and conservatives. They just don’t have the numbers. Much like libertarians, they tend to speak with a louder voice than their actual numbers justify. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2014, 4:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-there-be-a-be-liberal-or-else-movement-among-democrats/706507/25 "2014-12-10T16:49:23Z")
> [@adaher](#): > > Ah, I get it. But Democrats can’t govern without moderates and conservatives. They just don’t have the numbers. I think you meant to say “liberals,” not “Democrats”; Democrats **do** have the numbers, there are more registered Dems than Pubs. The party does need its moderates – but it does not need its conservatives, the sooner the Blue Dogs and Boll Weevils die out the better. > [@adaher](#): > > Much like libertarians, they tend to speak with a louder voice than their actual numbers justify. So do the Tea Partiers, but they do seem to be getting their way nevertheless. ---
**Author:** ![adaher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@adaher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adaher)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2014, 8:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-there-be-a-be-liberal-or-else-movement-among-democrats/706507/26 "2014-12-10T20:43:10Z")
The party can’t actually have a majority without conservatives. For a time they tried to fake their way through it by having faux conservatives, but in 2014 the red state voters caught on to the game and now Democrats are back to square one. ---
**Author:** ![astorian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ad7895/32.png) [@astorian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/astorian)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2014, 8:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-there-be-a-be-liberal-or-else-movement-among-democrats/706507/27 "2014-12-10T20:48:39Z")
So, if the Tea Party is so powerful, I guess the GOP must be nominating die-hard, foaming at the mouth conservatives for President every 4 years, right? Mitt Romney… Yeah, there’s a Reaganite for you. John McCain? I think not. When Jeb Bush inevitably gets the nomination in 2016, are you going to try to paint HIM as a right wing extremist, too? ---
**Author:** ![astorian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ad7895/32.png) [@astorian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/astorian)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2014, 9:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-there-be-a-be-liberal-or-else-movement-among-democrats/706507/28 "2014-12-10T21:28:59Z")
Let’s look at the Tea Party’s success/failure rate in 2014. 1. In Texas, the GOP Establishment supported incumbent John Cornyn. The Tea Party didn’t think Cornyn was conservative, and endorsed the embarrassing Steve Stockman. Cornyn won handily. 1. In Kentucky, the Tea Party tried to unseat incumbent Mitch McConnell with cockfighting enthusiast Matt Bevin. Bevin lost. 2. In Louisiana, the Tea Party supported Rob Maness over Bill Cassidy. Cassidy won. 3. In North Carolina, the Tea Partiers were split between Greg Brannon and Rev. Mark Harris. Establishment candidate Tom Tillis won. Even in the South, the Tea Party loses more often than it wins in Republican primaries. The notion that you have to be a right-wing kook to win the Republican nomination simply isn’t borne out by reality. ---
**Author:** ![JRDelirious](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jrdelirious/32/9531_2.png) [@JRDelirious](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JRDelirious)\ **Post date:** [December 11, 2014, 1:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-there-be-a-be-liberal-or-else-movement-among-democrats/706507/29 "2014-12-11T01:40:57Z")
> [@astorian](#): > > Even in the South, the Tea Party loses more often than it wins in Republican primaries. The notion that you have to be a right-wing kook to win the Republican nomination simply isn’t borne out by reality. I think the impression was created out of the 2006/10/12 cycles, out of the high media visibility of the TP itself and of the likes of Bachmann/Cruz types winning in the generals, and Angle/O’Donnell types upsetting establishment candidates in the primaries, and a lot of chatter rising about how everyone was too scared to get primaried on the right by the TP. In the end the serious people inside the GOP got together and said wait a minute, we’re supposed to run conservatives to win elections, not “likes” in social media. Cost them maybe four years’ worth of Senate majority to get that through to the larger market. ---
**Author:** ![adaher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@adaher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adaher)\ **Post date:** [December 11, 2014, 3:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-there-be-a-be-liberal-or-else-movement-among-democrats/706507/30 "2014-12-11T15:42:39Z")
The Tea Party was very strong in 2010, less strong in 2012, and lost pretty badly to the mainstream party in 2014. Of course, the mainstream party was pulled to the right in the process, so it’s hard to call it much of a loss. ---
**Author:** ![Evil\_Captor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/f17d59/32.png) [@Evil\_Captor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_Captor)\ **Post date:** [December 11, 2014, 5:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-there-be-a-be-liberal-or-else-movement-among-democrats/706507/31 "2014-12-11T17:16:11Z")
In politics, follow the money. The black hole of American politics is Wall Street and the huge corporate oligarchs (think "Time Warner/Walmart’). They keep sucking in huger and huger portions of America’s wealth. And wealth is power, especially now that money plays such a central role in politics. That’s why you are seeing factionalizing in both major parties along economic lines: the Tea Party which hates Wall Street vs. the mainline conservatives who love Wall Street, and the progressive Democrats who hate Wall Street and the “centrist” Democrats who love Wall Street. With the mainline conservative Republicans and centrist Democrats predictably winning all the early rounds. The American people in poll after poll side with the Tea Parties and progressives on economic issues, but Washington turns a deaf ear to them, playing up social issues to keep their base distracted (i.e., gay marriage, marijuana legalization, Middle East wars, out of control militarized cops, whatever, so long as it doesn’t interfere with the Wall Street/corporate money machine). The question is, can the big money politicos in both the Republican and Democratic parties keep the electorate dancing to their tune via social issues long enough to gain a hold on power so secure that the electoral process loses all meaning? I rather suspect they will succeed. So the answer to your question is: unlikely. A liberal or die movement within the Democratic Party would be seen as an impediment to Wall Street’s money machine. Can’t have that. Strings will be pulled. ---
**Author:** ![PastTense](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pasttense/32/14550_2.png) [@PastTense](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PastTense)\ **Post date:** [December 11, 2014, 9:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-there-be-a-be-liberal-or-else-movement-among-democrats/706507/32 "2014-12-11T21:10:56Z")
> [@astorian](#): > > Let’s look at the Tea Party’s success/failure rate in 2014. You failed to mention Iowa where a Tea Party nut, Joni Ernst, beat several more moderate Republicans in the primary and then won the election decisively. And course the defeat of Eric Cantor. ---
**Author:** ![adaher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@adaher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adaher)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2014, 12:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-there-be-a-be-liberal-or-else-movement-among-democrats/706507/33 "2014-12-12T00:55:07Z")
Looks like we’ve got some Democratic Tea Partyism going on right now in Congress, with the left ready to shut down the government: > **[Warren leads liberal Democrats’ rebellion over provisions in $1 trillion...](https://www.washingtonpost.com/business/economy/warren-leads-liberal-democrats-rebellion-over-provisions-in-1-trillion-spending-bill/2014/12/10/c5c915e4-80b5-11e4-9f38-95a187e4c1f7_story.html)** > > Sen. Elizabeth Warren and other liberals complained that provisions in the $1.01 trillion bill would roll back critical limits on Wall Street and increase the influence of wealthy campaign donors. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2014, 7:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-there-be-a-be-liberal-or-else-movement-among-democrats/706507/34 "2014-12-12T19:46:38Z")
> [@adaher](#): > > Looks like we’ve got some Democratic Tea Partyism going on right now in Congress, with the left ready to shut down the government: > > [http://www.washingtonpost.com/business/economy/warren-leads-liberal-democrats-rebellion-over-provisions-in-1-trillion-spending-bill/2014/12/10/c5c915e4-80b5-11e4-9f38-95a187e4c1f7\_story.html](http://www.washingtonpost.com/business/economy/warren-leads-liberal-democrats-rebellion-over-provisions-in-1-trillion-spending-bill/2014/12/10/c5c915e4-80b5-11e4-9f38-95a187e4c1f7_story.html) [They didn’t, but:](http://www.salon.com/2014/12/12/a_new_day_for_liberals_what_we_learned_in_the_epic_clash_over_the_spending_bill/) > [@](#): > > And what did that vote tell us about the Democratic Party? Most of the departing Blue Dogs who lost their seats voted for the bill, predictably. In a break with President Obama, who lobbied for it, most of the Congressional Black Caucus did not. The remaining House Democrats are going to be more reliably critical of Wall Street, and less inclined to bow to the White House. 2015 is going to be interesting. > > \ > > We now know that Nancy Pelosi is through guaranteeing the votes for ugly messes liberals hate (like the debt ceiling and sequester deals) but that House Speaker John Boehner can’t pass alone. In a new Congress where many Blue Dogs lost their seats, this sets the stage for House Democrats to block elements of the GOP agenda, especially when there can be left-right alliances. Tea Party defenders say it was partly inspired by outrage at the 2008 Wall Street bailout and corporate-government cronyism; it would be nice if House adherents remembered those roots. > > \ > > We’re also seeing a more clearly defined bloc of Wall Street critics emerge in the Democratic Party, just in time for 2016. The Warren-led battle over Treasury nominee Antonio Weiss is also heating up – and both fights pit the popular progressive against President Obama. > > Many news accounts have depicted the spending bill battle as Warren vs. Obama, setting up an ongoing clash between the two Democratic leaders. But I think the Warren vs. Obama story line can be overblown. It’s probably too much to expect the president to veto the spending bill and effectively shut down the government – clearly he doesn’t share my optimism that Democrats could win that P.R. battle. But if the noxious measures hidden in the bill came to him as individual pieces of legislation, he’d be under a new level of pressure from congressional Democrats to veto them, and I expect he would. Obama made clear that while he wanted Democrats to support the spending bill he shared their opposition to both provisions. ---
**Author:** ![foolsguinea](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/foolsguinea/32/14751_2.png) [@foolsguinea](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/foolsguinea)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2014, 6:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-there-be-a-be-liberal-or-else-movement-among-democrats/706507/35 "2014-12-13T06:34:17Z")
> [@adaher](#): > > The problem is that a lot of liberalism is anti-populist. I can see a liberal movement of working class people that demands “economic justice” and is anti-Wall Street, but such a movement would probably also be anti-immigration, anti-enviromentalism(at least where there’s an economic cost to environmental policies), and Jacksonian in its foreign policy views. > > In other words, a liberal movement that looks a lot like the old New Deal coalition. “Jacksonian” foreign policy? 😕 What, do we enter wars, sign treaties to end them, and then fight extra battles afterward for the lulz? As for environmentalism, sustainability has a real economic upside for most people. The downside of going heavily into renewables is for the bank account of Boone Pickens, not the masses. ---
**Author:** ![foolsguinea](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/foolsguinea/32/14751_2.png) [@foolsguinea](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/foolsguinea)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2014, 6:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-there-be-a-be-liberal-or-else-movement-among-democrats/706507/36 "2014-12-13T06:38:18Z")
> [@DigitalC](#): > > I just don’t think the Keystone pipeline is as big as deal as either side makes it out to be and will be forgotten in a couple weeks once its settled. Until there is a spill that is. I think it’s a big deal for a couple of rich Canucks (pro) and a lot of farmers in the Plains (con). I don’t think it’s a big deal to the majority of the Americans on the coasts, no. They’re not going to be directly poisoned when it spills. (Not if. When.) ---
**Author:** ![adaher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@adaher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adaher)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2014, 8:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-there-be-a-be-liberal-or-else-movement-among-democrats/706507/37 "2014-12-13T08:17:15Z")
> [@foolsguinea](#): > > “Jacksonian” foreign policy? 😕 What, do we enter wars, sign treaties to end them, and then fight extra battles afterward for the lulz? > > As for environmentalism, sustainability has a real economic upside for most people. The downside of going heavily into renewables is for the bank account of Boone Pickens, not the masses. Renewables are expensive and there’s currently no known way to scale them up to provide the power we now use even if we were willing to pay. Economic justice means cheap energy for the masses. The wealthier, more socially conscious liberal set of course, is willing to shell out, although not willing to sacrifice. Using less is for the common folk. ---
**Author:** ![foolsguinea](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/foolsguinea/32/14751_2.png) [@foolsguinea](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/foolsguinea)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2014, 2:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-there-be-a-be-liberal-or-else-movement-among-democrats/706507/38 "2014-12-14T02:36:55Z")
> [@adaher](#): > > Renewables are expensive and there’s currently no known way to scale them up to provide the power we now use even if we were willing to pay. Economic justice means cheap energy for the masses. The wealthier, more socially conscious liberal set of course, is willing to shell out, although not willing to sacrifice. Using less is for the common folk. Oh, good lord, that was twenty years ago. Technology has marched on. ---
**Author:** ![adaher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@adaher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adaher)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2014, 6:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-there-be-a-be-liberal-or-else-movement-among-democrats/706507/39 "2014-12-14T06:14:28Z")
Not to the extent that we can even come close to replacing fossil fuels. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [February 13, 2015, 7:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-there-be-a-be-liberal-or-else-movement-among-democrats/706507/40 "2015-02-13T19:23:26Z")
“Or else” is pretty much the antithesis of the liberal mindset. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-there-be-a-be-liberal-or-else-movement-among-democrats/706507.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-there-be-a-be-liberal-or-else-movement-among-democrats/706507.md?page=3)