# Will there ever be another jazz guitarist like Joe Pass? **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [August 18, 2003, 12:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-there-ever-be-another-jazz-guitarist-like-joe-pass/195953 "2003-08-18T12:04:15Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 16\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Zeldar](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/b77776/32.png) [@Zeldar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zeldar)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2003, 12:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-there-ever-be-another-jazz-guitarist-like-joe-pass/195953/1 "2003-08-18T12:04:15Z")
There are any number of good to great jazz guitar players. Some are no longer with us, but they’ve left record of how great they were. To name a few: Tal Farlow Johnny Smith Chet Atkins Pat Metheny Joe Beck George Benson Hank Garland Lenny Breau Laurindo Almeida Charlie Byrd Herb Ellis Barnie Kessel Kenny Burrell Wes Montgomery Jim Hall Ed Bickert But has anybody ever had the control, the chops, the command that Joe Pass did? I don’t own that many of Joe’s records, nor of the ones where he’s just the competent rhythm section guy holding up some other performer, but the ones I do have convince me that if there’s one player to epitomize the jazz guitar, it’s Joe Pass. Anybody you know of who can hold a candle to Joe? ---
**Author:** ![twickster](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/ec9cab/32.png) [@twickster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/twickster)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2003, 1:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-there-ever-be-another-jazz-guitarist-like-joe-pass/195953/2 "2003-08-18T13:01:33Z")
Not in his league, perhaps, but let’s not forget the extremly talented **John McLaughlin**. (I’ve got one of the _Remember Shakti_ CDs easing me into Monday morning as we speak.) ---
**Author:** ![Exoskeleton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/d2c977/32.png) [@Exoskeleton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Exoskeleton)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2003, 4:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-there-ever-be-another-jazz-guitarist-like-joe-pass/195953/3 "2003-08-18T16:06:30Z")
Django Reinhardt? Pat Metheny? Derek Bailey? ---
**Author:** ![KidCharlemagne](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ed8c4c/32.png) [@KidCharlemagne](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/KidCharlemagne)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2003, 6:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-there-ever-be-another-jazz-guitarist-like-joe-pass/195953/4 "2003-08-18T18:06:52Z")
I think Jim Hall has a much nicer touch and significantly better phrasing than Joe Pass. I even prefer to listen to Grant Green over Joe Pass. Joe Pass is a bit too busy and a bit mechanical sounding imo. ---
**Author:** ![Zeldar](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/b77776/32.png) [@Zeldar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zeldar)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2003, 6:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-there-ever-be-another-jazz-guitarist-like-joe-pass/195953/5 "2003-08-18T18:41:19Z")
**twickster** , my only exposure to John McLaughlin has been by way of the work he did with Miles Davis in those early fusion albums. I’ve read a bit about his guitar mastery, but can’t personally attest to it. **Exoskeleton** , Django should have been on my list. Pat Metheny was. But I’m not familiar with Derek Bailey. I’ll try to listen for him. Any clues about his style, who he’s played with, etc.? **KidCharlemagne** , I’ve admired Jim Hall a great deal, especially the things he did with Bill Evans and Paul Desmond. I agree that his touch is impressive. But where you see Joe Pass as busy, I guess I see total control over the instrument. I’ve heard that Tuck Andress has a comparable skill at chord melody and walking bass licks, but so far I’ve yet to hear Andress. Nor am I familiar with Grant Green except through hearsay. How comfortable are you folks with expanding the designation “jazz guitarist” to include people like Duane Allman, Dickey Betts, Stevie Ray Vaughan, Eric Clapton, etc. Does the more blues-based style need its own “bag” or can “jazz” include that as well? Same for Bluegrass players. As for my own tastes and preferences, if a guy (or gal – let’s not leave out people like Bonnie Raitt from consideration) has control and command over the instrument, I’m less particular about the style and more particular about the skill. Just remembered somebody I left off the list who should be there: Larry Carlton. ---
**Author:** ![twickster](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/ec9cab/32.png) [@twickster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/twickster)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2003, 6:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-there-ever-be-another-jazz-guitarist-like-joe-pass/195953/6 "2003-08-18T18:50:32Z")
Speaking of Larry’s – Larry Coryell. Another oldie, considered “fusion” in his heyday – Jeff Beck. ---
**Author:** ![Zeldar](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/b77776/32.png) [@Zeldar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zeldar)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2003, 7:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-there-ever-be-another-jazz-guitarist-like-joe-pass/195953/7 "2003-08-18T19:04:24Z")
Yes! Jeff Beck’s another I left off the list. Thanks! I have heard of Coryell, too. Just haven’t heard his music. That applies to Pat Martino as well. Both those guys were in almost every issue of _Guitar Player_ when I was reading it some time back. ---
**Author:** ![Zeldar](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/b77776/32.png) [@Zeldar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zeldar)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2003, 7:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-there-ever-be-another-jazz-guitarist-like-joe-pass/195953/8 "2003-08-18T19:06:02Z")
Just remembered another great player: Al DiMeola. ---
**Author:** ![trainwreck](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/fbc32d/32.png) [@trainwreck](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/trainwreck)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2003, 7:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-there-ever-be-another-jazz-guitarist-like-joe-pass/195953/9 "2003-08-18T19:18:23Z")
\>\>\>\>How comfortable are you folks with expanding the designation “jazz guitarist” to include people like Duane Allman, Dickey Betts, Stevie Ray Vaughan, Eric Clapton, etc. Does the more blues-based style need its own “bag” or can “jazz” include that as well? I would say that a “jazz guitarist” is one that plays “jazz”… I doubt any of those guys have much of a prayer on Giant Steps or know (knew in the case of the deceased) the changes to the 40 or 50 most commonly played tunes for the wedding/ restaurant/ concert gigs. I have heard Clapton do “Over the Rainbow” and Vaughn’s “Chitlins con Carne”, and although you argue the jaz style, those 2 tunes do not a jazz guitarist make. I also don’t think any of those guys would call themselves jazz guitarists, or being called such. They are basically “blues guitarists” (and don’t get me wrong, the best of the best at that)but there are jazzier sounding blues guitarists then them around. There are a lot of excellent players that you have probobly never heard of; I think players like Jimmy Bruno, Mark Elf, Kenny Poole,Randy Johnston, Cal Collins, John Stowell, Howard Roberts, and Josh Breakstone (to name a few) have comparable mastery of the guitar (especially the first few mentioned) and although some may lack the same creative spark, most of them probobly have better “technic” and theoretical understanding then Joe. However, Joe definitely has something almost intangible which sets him apart from the rest. You might want to check out Jr Brown if you haven’t already- country stuff with lap steel and regular 6 string- but you can hear the Hendrix and the jazz in there as well. JC ---
**Author:** ![KidCharlemagne](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ed8c4c/32.png) [@KidCharlemagne](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/KidCharlemagne)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2003, 8:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-there-ever-be-another-jazz-guitarist-like-joe-pass/195953/10 "2003-08-18T20:42:44Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Zeldar \* > > **KidCharlemagne** \ But where you see Joe Pass as busy, I guess I see total control over the instrument. \*\* I agree that he has incredible technical command of the instrument, probably the best of those you listed. I just don’t think his lines are as melodic as they could be. When I listen to Jim Hall it’s like every line is a wisp of smoke trailing off into the air and I literally follow it with my head. Melodic and dulcet. With Joe Pass I sometimes wonder where the hell he’s going and when he gets there I’m often not satisfied. I also think he often sounds like what a “player guitar” might sound like - a computer controlling little felted fingers to produce the chords and notes. Technically perfect but lacking a certain humanity. I know I’m probably in the vast minority here but I calls 'em like I feels 'em. ---
**Author:** ![Zeldar](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/b77776/32.png) [@Zeldar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zeldar)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2003, 8:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-there-ever-be-another-jazz-guitarist-like-joe-pass/195953/11 "2003-08-18T20:58:31Z")
**KidCharlemagne** , no problems here with calling it as you see it. There are points to what you say. I guess my way of looking at it is that if I could play the way Joe played, I’d probably use that skill to try to sound more like Jim Hall! They both have aspects of what I like to hear in a guitar. I’ve yet to mention a guitarist whose style seems to defy categorization in that he doesn’t seem to operate out of one specific style. Are any of you familiar with Adrian Legg? His choice to use alternate tunings about as much as anything else keeps his sound away from outright jazz, as does his technique, but the boy can flat play a guitar! ---
**Author:** ![twickster](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/ec9cab/32.png) [@twickster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/twickster)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2003, 9:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-there-ever-be-another-jazz-guitarist-like-joe-pass/195953/12 "2003-08-18T21:10:18Z")
You guys are so far out of my league on expertise – I’m not a guitarist, I just used to date one ( 😉 ) and it’s an instrument I love. I’m only following about a third of this conversation. Recently bought a 4-disk compilation from Daedalue Records called _Hittin’ on All Six: A History of the Jazz Guitar_, which has introduced me to a bunch of people I’d heard of but never heard, like Charlie Christian, Lonnie Johnson, Tiny Grimes, as well as others I already knew, like Django Reinhardt and Les Paul. Not too expensive (I think it was under $20); good set. Speaking of blues, I finally checked out Robert Randolph – oh. my. god. ---
**Author:** ![Zeldar](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/b77776/32.png) [@Zeldar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zeldar)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2003, 10:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-there-ever-be-another-jazz-guitarist-like-joe-pass/195953/13 "2003-08-18T22:24:02Z")
**twickster** , that sounds like a good deal on that set. I bought a multi-LP package from _Guitar Player_ has to have been 15-20 years ago. That’s been my only exposure to some of the people who were featured regularly in the magazine in those days. A buddy where I worked was more into bluegrass and rockabilly, but we shared tastes in “good musicians” and he introduced me to a bunch of guitarists I never would have known about otherwise. Danny Gatton, Tony Rice, the Hellecasters and folks like that. I’m not familiar with Robert Randolph. New guy? I bought a couple of LP’s from Columbia that had all of Robert Johnson’s recordings. I think they’re still in the shrink wrap! ---
**Author:** ![Exoskeleton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/d2c977/32.png) [@Exoskeleton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Exoskeleton)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2003, 11:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-there-ever-be-another-jazz-guitarist-like-joe-pass/195953/14 "2003-08-18T23:12:22Z")
I was being kind of a smart-ass with Bailey; he’s an English free-jazz guitarist, as free as you can get. An acquired taste, certainly. Jeff Parker, from my hometown Chicago, is excellent in the mainstream-to-slightly-avant-garde vein, I stronly recommend his new Delmark release **Like Coping** which I think you’ll like. Ditto Brad Shepik’s release **Drip** in a trio featuring the great drummer Tom Rainey. This came out last year on Knitting Factory. I also heard a very good one by a guitarist named Dom Minasi recently, called **Goin’ Out Again**. It burns through a few startling re-imaginings of some standards as well as some fetching originals. There’s the late Sonny Sharrock, who may be too rock-influenced for some, though one should give his **Ask the Ages** , with Paroah Sanders and Elvin Jones, a spin. There’s Emily Remler, who I admit I don’t know much about. And Charlie Christian! Don’t forget him! ---
**Author:** ![twickster](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/ec9cab/32.png) [@twickster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/twickster)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2003, 11:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-there-ever-be-another-jazz-guitarist-like-joe-pass/195953/15 "2003-08-18T23:38:48Z")
[Robert Randolph](http://www.allmusic.com/cg/amg.dll?p=amg&uid=CASS80305181240&sql=B8cjxlfhekcqq). The rave reviews of his new album reminded me I’d meant to check him out – I got the first album, and want to listen to it for a while before I get the next one. It’s alright – if you like absolutely killer slide guitar. Not everyone does.😃 ---
**Author:** ![Eman\_Resu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/bc8723/32.png) [@Eman\_Resu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Eman_Resu)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2003, 4:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-there-ever-be-another-jazz-guitarist-like-joe-pass/195953/16 "2003-08-19T04:48:07Z")
Anybody heard of a guy named Kurt Rosenwinkel? Don’t know how he stacks up against these other guys in regards to technique (I have trouble telling with instruments that I don’t play), but he certainly seems to have some creativity in his compositions.