# Will these hearings "demonize" Muslims in America? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [March 6, 2011, 5:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-these-hearings-demonize-muslims-in-america/573688 "2011-03-06T17:40:35Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [March 6, 2011, 9:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-these-hearings-demonize-muslims-in-america/573688/41 "2011-03-06T21:16:05Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > I said _homegrown_ Muslims. You’re striking out here. Naveed Afzal Haq, the Seattle Jewish Community Center shooting guy was born in Washington State. Hasan Akbar/Mark Kools, the sergeant who killed two officers with a grenade on that base in Kuwait, was born in Los Angeles. I don’t know about the Kansas recruiting center shooting, but Abdulhakim Mujahid Muhammad/Carlos Bledsoe, the guy who shot up an Arkansas recruiting center, was born in Tennessee. So in those cases, at least, I don’t know how you can not call them homegrown. ---
**Author:** ![Capitaine\_Zombie](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e95f7d/32.png) [@Capitaine\_Zombie](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Capitaine_Zombie)\ **Post date:** [March 6, 2011, 9:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-these-hearings-demonize-muslims-in-america/573688/42 "2011-03-06T21:17:48Z")
> [@Valteron](#): > > Your personal attacks on me (e.g. "are you such a moron . . .) should be adressed by the moderator. I believe they are an infringement of the rules of the GDMB. > > Your quote above is a classic example of a straw man, because I never tried to establish the syllogism you are alleging I made. > > You falsely claim that I said something like this: > > Major Premise: _Muslims in America are protesting the hearings. > Minor premise: Radical Djihadists would be protesting the hearings. > Conclusion: Muslims protesting the hearings are in truth Radical Djihadists._ > > I would never make such a syllogism because it does not follow the rules of logic. > > Here is what I actually said, if you will check the last para of my OP: > > “Finally, a question: If you were a radicalized Muslim terrorist who is recruiting young American Muslims for terrorism and spreading radical jihadist ideas in Muslim communities in the US, would YOU be in favour of these hearings? Or would you join those opposing the hearings at today’s demo?” > > I will repeat the question in another way. Imagine that you are a radical Muslim terrorist who is keeping a low profile, attending your mosque like all the peaceful Muslims, but working behind the scenes to radicalize American Muslim youth. > > Would you be in favour of hearings and other forms of inquiry into what is happening in Muslim America? > > I know what I would do if I were that person. I would try to get the hearings stopped in their tracks by shouting that Muslims are being demonized. I would even use the “racist” accusation if that works (and it often does, even though Islam is not a race). > > I am saying that NOT holding such hearings for fear of being accused of racism and bigotry would serve the interests of such terrorists, would it not? So you think it’s a foolish syllogism, therefore unworthy of you, and yet you repeat it. Hey, are you a serial killer? No? But if you were, you would say no as well, so in truth, your answer is the exact same as what a serial killer would be answering. Aint that suspicious? Mind if I search your car? Your house? Can I check your computers, and panhandle you as well? After all, if you’ve got nothing to hide… ---
**Author:** ![Capitaine\_Zombie](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e95f7d/32.png) [@Capitaine\_Zombie](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Capitaine_Zombie)\ **Post date:** [March 6, 2011, 9:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-these-hearings-demonize-muslims-in-america/573688/43 "2011-03-06T21:20:08Z")
> [@Ibn\_Warraq](#): > > Oh God, you really don’t know much about this topic do you? **Ibn Warraq** , do you suffer from a condition that forces you to ask that in every thread you’re in? It’s getting fucking tiresome. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [March 6, 2011, 9:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-these-hearings-demonize-muslims-in-america/573688/44 "2011-03-06T21:23:13Z")
> [@Ibn\_Warraq](#): > > Umm… virtually all of those people were US citizens and some were born in the US. I don’t think any of them were born in the US. They were not “homegrown.” > [@](#): > > Besides the hearings aren’t about\*\* people\*\* **born in the US** who are Muslim, but \*\*people in the US \*\*who are Muslim of which the latter(which I am technically a part of) vastly outweighs the latter. It’s about harrassing American citizens becaise of their religious beliefs, and like I said, Christians are a statistically greater threat in the US than Muslims, so it’s hypocritical too. > [@](#): > > Heh, you really don’t know much about Judaism do you. I apparently know more than you do. What I say about Messianic expectations is correct. > [@](#): > > It most certainly isn’t a “universal religion” the way Islam or Christianity is which is why they don’t proselytize the way Muslims and Christians do. It’s not an evangelical religion, but so what? I never said it was. I said that it is part of Jewish expectation that the whole world will eventually worship their God. Do you deny that? Do you actually know anything about the religion yourself? ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [March 6, 2011, 9:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-these-hearings-demonize-muslims-in-america/573688/45 "2011-03-06T21:35:43Z")
> [@Capitaine\_Zombie](#): > > **Ibn Warraq** , do you suffer from a condition that forces you to ask that in every thread you’re in? It’s getting fucking tiresome. I was responding to a rather snarky attack by Dio. You’ll notice how he’s now trying to shift the goal posts so that even attacks by American citizens who are Muslims shouldn’t be counted unless they were born in the US, which comes dangerously close to insinuating that people like myself who weren’t born in the US aren’t as American as people like him who were. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [March 6, 2011, 9:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-these-hearings-demonize-muslims-in-america/573688/46 "2011-03-06T21:37:35Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > I don’t think any of them were born in the US. They were not “homegrown.” **Captain Amazing** gave some examples of people born in the US. > [@](#): > > It’s not an evangelical religion, but so what? I never said it was. I said that it is part of Jewish expectation that the whole world will eventually worship their God. Do you deny that? Do you actually know anything about the religion yourself? OK, then your comment about Judaism was a _non sequitur_. ---
**Author:** ![Peremensoe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ce7236/32.png) [@Peremensoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Peremensoe)\ **Post date:** [March 6, 2011, 9:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-these-hearings-demonize-muslims-in-america/573688/47 "2011-03-06T21:40:05Z")
> [@Valteron](#): > > “Finally, a question: If you were a radicalized Muslim terrorist who is recruiting young American Muslims for terrorism and spreading radical jihadist ideas in Muslim communities in the US, would YOU be in favour of these hearings? Or would you join those opposing the hearings at today’s demo?” > > I will repeat the question in another way. Imagine that you are a radical Muslim terrorist who is keeping a low profile, attending your mosque like all the peaceful Muslims, but working behind the scenes to radicalize American Muslim youth. > > Would you be in favour of hearings and other forms of inquiry into what is happening in Muslim America? > > I know what I would do if I were that person. I would try to get the hearings stopped in their tracks by shouting that Muslims are being demonized. I would even use the “racist” accusation if that works (and it often does, even though Islam is not a race). > > I am saying that NOT holding such hearings for fear of being accused of racism and bigotry would serve the interests of such terrorists, would it not? I think you have it precisely backwards. Demonization by one side serves the interests of those who wish to demonize from the other side. It provides _evidence_ of the righteousness of the radical cause. ---
**Author:** ![Valteron](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/f17d59/32.png) [@Valteron](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Valteron)\ **Post date:** [March 6, 2011, 9:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-these-hearings-demonize-muslims-in-america/573688/48 "2011-03-06T21:45:21Z")
> [@Capitaine\_Zombie](#): > > So you think it’s a foolish syllogism, therefore unworthy of you, and yet you repeat it. > > Hey, are you a serial killer? No? But if you were, you would say no as well, so in truth, your answer is the exact same as what a serial killer would be answering. Aint that suspicious? Mind if I search your car? Your house? Can I check your computers, and panhandle you as well? After all, if you’ve got nothing to hide… Sigh!:rolleyes: It is not a foolish syllogism, it is an illogical syllogism, which you claim I made and which I did not make. There is no syllogism involved in my comments. No major and minor premise and conclusion. You are the one reading a syllogism into my posting. ---
**Author:** ![Valteron](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/f17d59/32.png) [@Valteron](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Valteron)\ **Post date:** [March 6, 2011, 9:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-these-hearings-demonize-muslims-in-america/573688/49 "2011-03-06T21:48:25Z")
> [@spark240](#): > > I think you have it precisely backwards. Demonization by one side serves the interests of those who wish to demonize from the other side. It provides _evidence_ of the righteousness of the radical cause. And if you don’t hold these hearings, radicals in the Muslim world will suddenly love America? ---
**Author:** ![Peremensoe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ce7236/32.png) [@Peremensoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Peremensoe)\ **Post date:** [March 6, 2011, 9:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-these-hearings-demonize-muslims-in-america/573688/50 "2011-03-06T21:50:49Z")
> [@Valteron](#): > > And if you don’t hold these hearings, radicals in the Muslim world will suddenly love America? Of course not. But at least they won’t be handed ammunition. ---
**Author:** ![Valteron](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/f17d59/32.png) [@Valteron](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Valteron)\ **Post date:** [March 6, 2011, 9:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-these-hearings-demonize-muslims-in-america/573688/51 "2011-03-06T21:53:20Z")
I don’t mean to get too personal, but you strike me as a non-terrorist, law-abiding American Muslim, at least judging by your postings. If there are radical terrorist elements working among Islamic Americans, would you not prefer to know about it so you and your fellow peaceful Muslims can root them out? ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [March 6, 2011, 9:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-these-hearings-demonize-muslims-in-america/573688/52 "2011-03-06T21:58:52Z")
If I were a radical Muslim, I would condemn the hearings and be pleased they are happening. I’d bet there will be lots of intemperate rhetoric that will be used by extremists to show that the US government is conducting a war against Islam. The real issue with the hearings isn’t about whether there is a homegrown terrorist threat. The issue is that the hearings are being organized b Peter King, a guy who is just as likely to frame a debate on Islam in fair terms as the OP is. The views of both King and the OP are known, unshakable, and virtually identical. Nothing will be learned at these hearings. It’s just a rigged show for someone who wants a platform for his McCarthy-like views. ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [March 6, 2011, 9:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-these-hearings-demonize-muslims-in-america/573688/53 "2011-03-06T21:59:17Z")
> [@Captain\_Amazing](#): > > Naveed Afzal Haq, the Seattle Jewish Community Center shooting guy was born in Washington State. Hasan Akbar/Mark Kools, the sergeant who killed two officers with a grenade on that base in Kuwait, was born in Los Angeles. I don’t know about the Kansas recruiting center shooting, but Abdulhakim Mujahid Muhammad/Carlos Bledsoe, the guy who shot up an Arkansas recruiting center, was born in Tennessee. So in those cases, at least, I don’t know how you can not call them homegrown. It was “Arkansas” not “Kansas”. As I said, I was operating from memory and slightly misremembered. I also didn’t include John Walker Lindh or the famous Chicago dirty bomber who were “home-grown” terrorists. Beyond that it’s utterly silly to have a discussion about “Muslims in America” or “hearings about Muslims in America” and claim that Muslim immigrants don’t count. For the most part we are an immigrant community, though that doesn’t make us less American than anyone else. If you go into most Mosques in the US most adults there are immigrants so it’s silly for Dio to try and claim immigrants(even those who are American citizens) shouldn’t be considered when discussing Muslims in America ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [March 6, 2011, 10:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-these-hearings-demonize-muslims-in-america/573688/54 "2011-03-06T22:01:23Z")
> [@Ibn\_Warraq](#): > > I was responding to a rather snarky attack by Dio. > > You’ll notice how he’s now trying to shift the goal posts You’re the one shifting the goal posts by trying to define Pakaistanis as “homegrown Americans.” ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [March 6, 2011, 10:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-these-hearings-demonize-muslims-in-america/573688/55 "2011-03-06T22:02:55Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > **Captain Amazing** gave some examples of people born in the US. Like who? > [@](#): > > OK, then your comment about Judaism was a _non sequitur_. Not really, since the Islamic belief is basically the same. ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [March 6, 2011, 10:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-these-hearings-demonize-muslims-in-america/573688/56 "2011-03-06T22:05:04Z")
> [@Valteron](#): > > I don’t mean to get too personal, but you strike me as a non-terrorist, law-abiding American Muslim, at least judging by your postings. If there are radical terrorist elements working among Islamic Americans, would you not prefer to know about it so you and your fellow peaceful Muslims can root them out? I find the idea of the hearings quite distasteful, particularly since they’re organized by Peter King. I also think the threat is overblown and I think the American governments policy of not engaging in ethnic profiling or similar measures has paid massive dividends by causing numerous plots to be foiled by encouraging Muslim Americans to turn in terrorists. Sending the message that we suspect all Muslims would be counterproductive. ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [March 6, 2011, 10:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-these-hearings-demonize-muslims-in-america/573688/57 "2011-03-06T22:10:28Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > You’re the one shifting the goal posts by trying to define Pakaistanis as “homegrown Americans.” Excuse me, but we’re talking about Muslims in America of whom the overwhelming majority are immigrants(including technically myself). Anyway virtually all of the attacks I mentioned were either naturalized American citizens who became radicalized in the US, legal residents who’d lived there for years apparently became radicalized within the US, or those who were born there. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [March 6, 2011, 10:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-these-hearings-demonize-muslims-in-america/573688/58 "2011-03-06T22:11:04Z")
> [@Valteron](#): > > I don’t mean to get too personal, but you strike me as a non-terrorist, law-abiding American Muslim, at least judging by your postings. If there are radical terrorist elements working among Islamic Americans, would you not prefer to know about it so you and your fellow peaceful Muslims can root them out? What do you mean by “working among?” Working among them in what sense? These “radical terrorist elemnts” you speak of are basically a bigoted, paranoid phantasm of your own mind, but playing along, you still haven’t explained why Christians shouldn’t be investigated first since they are a far bigger threat. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [March 6, 2011, 10:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-these-hearings-demonize-muslims-in-america/573688/59 "2011-03-06T22:13:01Z")
> [@Ibn\_Warraq](#): > > Excuse me, but we’re talking about Muslims in America of whom the overwhelming majority are immigrants(including technically myself). No we’re talking about homegrown Americans, not transplants. The goal of these hearings is to harrass Americans who are Muslims. ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [March 6, 2011, 10:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-these-hearings-demonize-muslims-in-america/573688/60 "2011-03-06T22:16:52Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > Like who? Is your computer somehow preventing you from reading Captain Amazings’ post? He lists them in it. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-these-hearings-demonize-muslims-in-america/573688.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-these-hearings-demonize-muslims-in-america/573688.md?page=4)