# Will these hearings "demonize" Muslims in America? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [March 6, 2011, 5:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-these-hearings-demonize-muslims-in-america/573688 "2011-03-06T17:40:35Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 6
**Author:** ![Capitaine\_Zombie](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e95f7d/32.png) [@Capitaine\_Zombie](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Capitaine_Zombie)\ **Post date:** [March 6, 2011, 11:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-these-hearings-demonize-muslims-in-america/573688/101 "2011-03-06T23:45:39Z")
> [@Valteron](#): > > Sigh!:rolleyes: > > It is not a foolish syllogism, it is an illogical syllogism, which you claim I made and which I did not make. > > There is no syllogism involved in my comments. No major and minor premise and conclusion. You are the one reading a syllogism into my posting. Maybe if you had any of the refreshing gullibility of a toddler, it might be believable that such a leading question would have been born out of nothing but total naiveté. But since you’re the guy that apparently cant stop thinking about Mooooooslems and their scheming and takingovery ways every fucking thread, I know it isnt. What is it? You started this thread like you thought it would be your final blaze of glory, and when, finally, you could say what’s really on your mind, what the intolerable PC rules of the Dope have so far kept you from revealing to us, you just shy away and back down. That’s pretty weak. ---
**Author:** ![Valteron](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/f17d59/32.png) [@Valteron](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Valteron)\ **Post date:** [March 6, 2011, 11:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-these-hearings-demonize-muslims-in-america/573688/102 "2011-03-06T23:47:11Z")
> [@tomndebb](#): > > If the congressional hearings were intended to discover actual facts, there is a remote chance that that might be true, (although it would still be more appropriate for the FBI and related agencies than congresscritters showboating), but as one more tired attempt to simply use congressional power to harrass innocent people, the “larger question” is not even part of the discussion. Now I am really confused. It seems both Marley and Tomndebb are moderating? I don’t have the posting numbers, but it appears Tom is moderating at 6:15 and Marley 23 at 6:07. Tomndebb, I told a true story in which I discussed why I am frightened by an Imam here in Canada who looked and spoke like a very moderate person, but when pressed on the issue would not condemn the fatwah against Rushdie and would not even tell me if he would put his obligations under Canadian law to report a potential murder ahead of his religious laws. Now, maybe this is not something that occurred in the US, but it IS something that occurred in a democracy right next door. Is it fair to call this Muslim-bashing and irrelevant to the OP? Is it not exactly this kind of thing that the hearings would be looking at? No matter how much you dislike me, can you honestly say my story is irrelevant to the OP? ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [March 6, 2011, 11:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-these-hearings-demonize-muslims-in-america/573688/103 "2011-03-06T23:55:48Z")
> [@magellan01](#): > > Why? Because my name isn’t Tom. And to answer the other part of your question and **Valteron** ’s at the same time: > [@Valteron](#): > > No matter how much you dislike me, can you honestly say my story is irrelevant to the OP? You have already devoted dozens or hundreds of posts to explaining your fears about Muslims. You’ve been told that you’re in danger of becoming a one tricky pony in that regard and that it’s time to find a new subject. You started this thread to discuss Rep. King’s hearings and the demonization of Muslims, which is a valid topic. If you return to the subject of Islamic evil and your fears thereof, you’ll be violating the instruction **tomndebb** gave you last month. ---
**Author:** ![Skip](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ebca7d/32.png) [@Skip](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skip)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2011, 12:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-these-hearings-demonize-muslims-in-america/573688/104 "2011-03-07T00:03:19Z")
> [@Valteron](#): > > Tomndebb, I told a true story in which I discussed why I am frightened by an Imam here in Canada who looked and spoke like a very moderate person, but when pressed on the issue would not condemn the fatwah against Rushdie and would not even tell me if he would put his obligations under Canadian law to report a potential murder ahead of his religious laws. Now, maybe this is not something that occurred in the US, but it IS something that occurred in a democracy right next door. Is it fair to call this Muslim-bashing and irrelevant to the OP? Is it not exactly this kind of thing that the hearings would be looking at? Christine O’Donnell, former candidate for the US Senate, and not a witch, publicly proclaimed on national television that had she lived in Nazi Germany, she would have [ratted out hiding Jews](https://voices.washingtonpost.com/roughsketch/2010/09/christine_odonnell_on_human_mi.html) because as a Christian she will never ever lie, even though she knows for sure that telling the truth will result in the deaths of a number of innocent people. Christine O’Donnell looks like a moderate person but yet when pressed on the issues has stated she would take an almost active part in mass murder. When can we organise hearings into Christians and their complicitness in the deaths of millions? ---
**Author:** ![Valteron](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/f17d59/32.png) [@Valteron](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Valteron)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2011, 12:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-these-hearings-demonize-muslims-in-america/573688/105 "2011-03-07T00:13:03Z")
> [@Capitaine\_Zombie](#): > > What is it? You started this thread like you thought it would be your final blaze of glory, and when, finally, you could say what’s really on your mind, what the intolerable PC rules of the Dope have so far kept you from revealing to us, you just shy away and back down. That’s pretty weak. What makes you say that I have not said everything that is on my mind? ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2011, 12:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-these-hearings-demonize-muslims-in-america/573688/106 "2011-03-07T00:15:56Z")
> [@magellan01](#): > > But it goes to the larger question of Muslims living in a Western culture. and the threat they represent. No it doesn’t. One person is not representative of “muslims livinmg in Western Culture,” and we are only getting this story from a highly biased source anyway, so we have no way to evaluate for accuracy, context or mitigating circumstances. ---
**Author:** ![Valteron](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/f17d59/32.png) [@Valteron](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Valteron)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2011, 12:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-these-hearings-demonize-muslims-in-america/573688/107 "2011-03-07T00:17:33Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > Because my name isn’t Tom. And to answer the other part of your question and **Valteron** ’s at the same time: > You have already devoted dozens or hundreds of posts to explaining your fears about Muslims. You’ve been told that you’re in danger of becoming a one tricky pony in that regard and that it’s time to find a new subject. You started this thread to discuss Rep. King’s hearings and the demonization of Muslims, which is a valid topic. If you return to the subject of Islamic evil and your fears thereof, you’ll be violating the instruction **tomndebb** gave you last month. Am I allowed to contribute posts to other threads started by that deal with Islam/Muslims, or am I permanently forbidden to express my opinion on the I-word and the M-word under any circumstances? ---
**Author:** ![Valteron](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/f17d59/32.png) [@Valteron](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Valteron)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2011, 12:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-these-hearings-demonize-muslims-in-america/573688/108 "2011-03-07T00:21:25Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > No it doesn’t. One person is not representative of “muslims livinmg in Western Culture,” and we are only getting this story from a highly biased source anyway, so we have no way to evaluate for accuracy, context or mitigating circumstances. Perhaps you could suggest to the moderators that “highly biased” sources like myself whose posts are not to be believed would have little symbol next to their name (maybe the pointed dunce cap they used to put on heretics before they burned them.) On the other hand, completely objective and impeccably credible persons like yourself could maybe have an owl as the symbol of wisdom next to their name. ---
**Author:** ![Skip](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ebca7d/32.png) [@Skip](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skip)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2011, 12:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-these-hearings-demonize-muslims-in-america/573688/109 "2011-03-07T00:30:48Z")
Valteron, in light of Christine O’Donnell’s admission that as a Christian she would assist Nazi’s in hunting down Jews if tasked to do so, do you feel we should hold hearings into the complicitness of Christians and their roles in the mass killing in areas with significant Christian populations such as Bosnia, Rwanda and the DRC? ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2011, 12:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-these-hearings-demonize-muslims-in-america/573688/110 "2011-03-07T00:52:42Z")
> [@Valteron](#): > > Am I allowed to contribute posts to other threads started by that deal with Islam/Muslims, or am I permanently forbidden to express my opinion on the I-word and the M-word under any circumstances? You’re not forbidden from posting to those threads or using the words Muslim or Islam. I think you need to read my posts and **tomndebb** ’s more carefully because you have not come close to understanding them. Here’s what I’m telling you right now: If you continue to devote most of your posts to Muslim-bashing, the staff may revoke your posting privileges. This is what **tomndebb** told you last month. AND to that end, this thread is about Rep. King’s hearings, not your feelings about Muslims and Islam. That’s why your story about the imam is irrelevant. Since you’ve already said your piece about this, you will drop it immediately. The topic is “Will the hearings demonize Muslims” - not “Here’s how I feel about Muslims.” If you ask any more questions about moderating in this thread, you will be warned for ignoring staff instructions. Take it to ATMB or let it go. ---
**Author:** ![Valteron](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/f17d59/32.png) [@Valteron](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Valteron)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2011, 12:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-these-hearings-demonize-muslims-in-america/573688/111 "2011-03-07T00:57:38Z")
If Ibn Warraq has never been to visit Canada, he would be very welcome. To visit or even to settle here. He sounds like the sort of moderate and reasonable immigrant we want. Would he be “targeted” at the border if he has a Muslim-sounding name? Probably! There, I have said it! That does not mean he would be strip searched with electrodes tied to his fingers by Canadian border services. But he might spend an extra few seconds while the computer scans a few facts. Because let’s face it. The nub of the question regarding the proposed hearings in the US is that they are a form of targeting. Well, guess what, boys and girls? Some form of targeting, whether a state admits it or not, is part of intelligent law enforcement, always has been and always will be. As a young man, my partner and I used to drive into the US to visit friends for American thanksgiving. Other times we would go to Cape Cod in the summer. For some reason, the American border guards were always asking us where we worked, and pulling little tricks like asking us again a few seconds later, especially in the Fall. It took us a while to realize the problem. Canada is a prosperous country and the US does not have a cross-border illegal immigration problem like that at the Mexican border. But what **does** happen is that Canadian kids often decide to skip a year in school and spend the winter working for under-the-table wages in some warm destination like Florida, and party, party, party. This is not a great social threat to the US but it is illegal immigration, even if almost all of these kids return to Canada. So what did my partner and I do? Did we start screaming “demonization” and “ageism”? No. Instead, we started bringing some solid workplace ID, like our security passes with our pictures, and our business cards, that showed we had solid jobs to return to in Canada. As soon as we started showing these we would pass through like shit through a goose. Mind you, this was in the 1970s, so computer systems were not what they are today. But the idea is WE WERE TARGETED. Guess what else? There are a number of traditional Chinese medicines that contain endnagered animal parts that cannot legally be brought into Canada (and I would assume the US). So when older Chinese-Canadians go to China for a visit and come back, guess what question they are frequently asked? **RACISM** :eek::eek::eek: On the other hand, my aged mother was never once asked by US border guards where she worked in Canada. Somehow, they did not think an 80-year-old was sneaking down to Fort Lauderdale to work illegally as a bus-girl for the winter. Those AGEIST BASTARDS! Discrimination! The simple fact is that every form of law enforcement has to focus here or there or there under the pure force of common sense and limited resources. This does not mean pulling over every black man driving an expensive car. It does not mean you practice racism or disrespect. But don’t ask me to totally ignore the fact that a huge proportion of terrorist acts around the world and against western countries are performed by people animated by Islamic doctrines. Surely the best policy for the vast majority of peaceful Muslims in the west is to recognize that fact and to cooperate with investigations? ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2011, 12:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-these-hearings-demonize-muslims-in-america/573688/112 "2011-03-07T00:59:58Z")
> [@Captain\_Amazing](#): > > Naveed Afzal Haq, the Seattle Jewish Community Center shooting guy was born in Washington State. Hasan Akbar/Mark Kools, the sergeant who killed two officers with a grenade on that base in Kuwait, was born in Los Angeles. I don’t know about the Kansas recruiting center shooting, but Abdulhakim Mujahid Muhammad/Carlos Bledsoe, the guy who shot up an Arkansas recruiting center, was born in Tennessee. So in those cases, at least, I don’t know how you can not call them homegrown. Links? ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2011, 1:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-these-hearings-demonize-muslims-in-america/573688/113 "2011-03-07T01:00:36Z")
> [@Valteron](#): > > Am I allowed to contribute posts to other threads started by that deal with Islam/Muslims, or am I permanently forbidden to express my opinion on the I-word and the M-word under any circumstances? You are allowed to post on the topic of Islam. HOWEVER, YOU STARTED THIS THREAD about one U.S. congresscritter and his particular effort to hold hearings on Muslim actions in the U.S. If you are going to ignore the topic of this thread, (U.S. congressional hearings), in order to rant about Islam, I am going to shut it down with a Warning. (It really does not help your cause to ignore the actual substance of Representative King’s little charade.) You have already been told to take your policy questions to ATMB rather than hijack your own thread, so you are now hijacking your own thread with two separate unrelated topics and you are about to receive a Warning for failure to follow Mod indstrauctions if you persist in this thread. [/Moderating] ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2011, 1:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-these-hearings-demonize-muslims-in-america/573688/114 "2011-03-07T01:04:27Z")
> [@Valteron](#): > > Because let’s face it. The nub of the question regarding the proposed hearings in the US is that they are a form of targeting. Well, in the sense of setting up straw man claims and then hiring liars to corroborate them while deliberately refusing to provide the same forum for legitimate spokespersons of either the targeted community or law enforcement. If you want to rant about how “Islam” is dangerous or that you feel so bad that not enough people, here, want to “target” people for their religious beliefs, then go open a Pit thread. ---
**Author:** ![Valteron](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/f17d59/32.png) [@Valteron](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Valteron)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2011, 1:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-these-hearings-demonize-muslims-in-america/573688/115 "2011-03-07T01:10:51Z")
> [@Skip](#): > > Valteron, in light of Christine O’Donnell’s admission that as a Christian she would assist Nazi’s in hunting down Jews if tasked to do so, do you feel we should hold hearings into the complicitness of Christians and their roles in the mass killing in areas with significant Christian populations such as Bosnia, Rwanda and the DRC? Dear Skip: By way of answer, I will offer you the following information I was sent by the moderator. You can read the full text in posting no. 110. "The topic is “Will the hearings demonize Muslims” - not “Here’s how I feel about Muslims.” If you ask any more questions about moderating in this thread, you will be warned for ignoring staff instructions. Take it to ATMB or let it go." ---
**Author:** ![Valteron](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/f17d59/32.png) [@Valteron](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Valteron)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2011, 1:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-these-hearings-demonize-muslims-in-america/573688/116 "2011-03-07T01:15:16Z")
> [@tomndebb](#): > > You are allowed to post on the topic of Islam. > HOWEVER, YOU STARTED THIS THREAD about one U.S. congresscritter and his particular effort to hold hearings on Muslim actions in the U.S. If you are going to ignore the topic of this thread, (U.S. congressional hearings), in order to rant about Islam, I am going to shut it down with a Warning. (It really does not help your cause to ignore the actual substance of Representative King’s little charade.) > > You have already been told to take your policy questions to ATMB rather than hijack your own thread, so you are now hijacking your own thread with two separate unrelated topics and you are about to receive a Warning for failure to follow Mod indstrauctions if you persist in this thread. > > [/Moderating] Okay, I am now so totally confused that I don’t know whether to shit or wind my watch. I will just sign off and read what others have to say about the topic. Have a nice evening. ---
**Author:** ![gonzomax](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e8c25b/32.png) [@gonzomax](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gonzomax)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2011, 1:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-these-hearings-demonize-muslims-in-america/573688/117 "2011-03-07T01:22:28Z")
What is there to hide VALTERON ? That is a loaded question. If you have nothing to hide you should open your doors to the police whenever they ask. You should allow them to read your mail, copy the contents of your computer and question you about your whereabouts whenever they want. The police can always find something to hang an accusation on. These hearing will be a format for anti muslim bigots to be free to voice their hate in a place that gives them official sanction and legal cover. You would be quite comfortable there. ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2011, 1:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-these-hearings-demonize-muslims-in-america/573688/118 "2011-03-07T01:29:45Z")
I guess I’m one of “the good ones”. ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2011, 1:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-these-hearings-demonize-muslims-in-america/573688/119 "2011-03-07T01:31:59Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > Links? [Naveed Haq](http://www.usatoday.com/news/nation/2006-08-10-seattle_x.htm): > [@](#): > > Haq, an American-born son of Pakistani immigrants, is accused of forcing his way into the charity’s offices and opening fire July 28 out of anger over the war in Iraq and U.S. support of Israel. [Abdulhakim Mujahid Muhammad](http://www.stuttgartdailyleader.com/newsnow/x1270137247/Letters-detail-Tennessees-Abdulhakim-Mujahid-Muhammad-terrorist-plans) > [@](#): > > Muhammad, born in Memphis as Carlos Bledsoe, faces the death penalty or life in prison without parole if convicted of capital murder in the June 2009 fatal shooting of Pvt. William Andrew Long, of Conway, Ark. [Hasan Akbar:](http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A7210-2005Apr21.html) > [@](#): > > Nothing about Akbar’s upbringing seemed to presage the act of violence that gave him a measure of infamy. He was born Mark Fidel Kools, but his mother changed his name to Hasan Akbar. He had risen out of the rough Watts neighborhood of Los Angeles to earn aeronautical and mechanical engineering degrees at the University of California at Davis. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2011, 1:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-these-hearings-demonize-muslims-in-america/573688/120 "2011-03-07T01:39:01Z")
> [@Argent\_Towers](#): > > I want everybody to repeat the following sentence, out loud. > > “Timothy McVeigh was not a Christian.” > > Do it again. > > “Timothy McVeigh was not a Christian.” > > Do it 10 more times. Is that what it’s going to take to get people to understand that Timothy McVeigh was not a Christian and never acted in the name of Christianity? He _never acted in the name of Christianity._ He _never thought of himself or presented himself as a representative of Christianity._ > > Every time there is ever a discussion of Islamic terrorism, someone comes in blabbering about Timothy McVeigh and “homegrown Christian terrorism.” He had suspected connections to the Christian Identity movement. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-these-hearings-demonize-muslims-in-america/573688.md?page=5) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-these-hearings-demonize-muslims-in-america/573688.md?page=7)