# Will these hearings "demonize" Muslims in America? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [March 6, 2011, 5:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-these-hearings-demonize-muslims-in-america/573688 "2011-03-06T17:40:35Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 14\ **Page:** 8
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2011, 3:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-these-hearings-demonize-muslims-in-america/573688/141 "2011-03-07T03:53:22Z")
> [@tomndebb](#): > > If the congressional hearings were intended to discover actual facts, there is a remote chance that that might be true, (although it would still be more appropriate for the FBI and related agencies than congresscritters showboating), but as one more tired attempt to simply use congressional power to harrass innocent people, the “larger question” is not even part of the discussion. I haven’t decided if these hearings are a good idea or not, (I’m leaning to “not”), but I do think that raising the Imam in Canada is appropriate fodder for this discussion. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2011, 3:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-these-hearings-demonize-muslims-in-america/573688/142 "2011-03-07T03:56:12Z")
I don’t see how. It’s an unverifiable anecdote about a single individual in another country. Why American Muslims should have to answer for story is beyond me. ---
**Author:** ![sisu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/df705f/32.png) [@sisu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sisu)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2011, 3:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-these-hearings-demonize-muslims-in-america/573688/143 "2011-03-07T03:59:17Z")
> [@Valteron](#): > > What is there to hide? If the hearings show no evidence of a higher incidence or radicalization and no higher propensity to terrorism among Muslims in America than among Mormons, Seventh-Day Adventists or Presbyterians, then I should think America’s Muslims would welcome such a conclusion. IMO the problem comes down to lumping anyone who calls themselves Moslem into one group. You have quoted 3 groups that would call themselves Christian and left out a lot that also do. ---
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2011, 4:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-these-hearings-demonize-muslims-in-america/573688/144 "2011-03-07T04:02:45Z")
> [@Skip](#): > > Once again: What threat do Muslims represent in the US? Is it larger or smaller than threats emanating from the Christian community in the US? If it’s smaller why are there no Congressional investigations into acts of Christian terrorism in the US? Here’s the thing: let’s say there were 20 Felonies of X in the U.S.. You’d like to stop X, and you’d do what you can to do so. Now let’s say that you discover that 15 of these felonies were done by a group that can be defined more tightly. So, instead of looking for 20 perpetrators out of 300,000,000, you can have a larger chance of stopping the 15 that are done by a group of just 6,000,000. That’s seems to be a valuable _first_ step to me. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2011, 4:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-these-hearings-demonize-muslims-in-america/573688/145 "2011-03-07T04:07:32Z")
> [@magellan01](#): > > Here’s the thing: let’s say there were 20 Felonies of X in the U.S.. You’d like to stop X, and you’d do what you can to do so. Now let’s say that you discover that 15 of these felonies were done by a group that can be defined more tightly. So, instead of looking for 20 perpetrators out of 300,000,000, you can have a larger chance of stopping the 15 that are done by a group of just 6,000,000. That’s seems to be a valuable _first_ step to me. But it isn’t. It doesn’t make the pool of suspects small enough to do any good, and it encourages people to both commit “felony X”, and to not cooperate with the police trying to catch those that are. ---
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2011, 4:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-these-hearings-demonize-muslims-in-america/573688/146 "2011-03-07T04:07:42Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > That was his last religion of record. He certainly wasn’t a very committed Muslim, in any case. Most radical Muslims don’t get baptized as Christians. The point is that the most/all of the terrorism done by Muslims in the U.S is done in the name of Islam. That is not the case for people who happened to be Christian, like Mcveigh. ---
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2011, 4:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-these-hearings-demonize-muslims-in-america/573688/147 "2011-03-07T04:13:33Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > But it isn’t. It doesn’t make the pool of suspects small enough to do any good, and it encourages people to both commit “felony X”, and to not cooperate with the police trying to catch those that are. That filter by itself does not, but it is just the _first_ filter. I’ll ask you, is it or is it not helpful to narrow the pool of potential suspects? I will assume even you will say it is. So, what you hope to do is to devise a series of concentric subgroups that will more narrowly define your target population. You want the initial ones, the most braod ones, to have the highest degree that you are capturing who you’re looking for in that subgroup. So, for example: 1. Muslims 2. Male 3. Ages 18 - 45 4. Travel to the Middle East 5. Affiliation with a mosque known to contain radicals etc. So you apply those filters to the group, making it smaller and smaller, with each filter. ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2011, 4:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-these-hearings-demonize-muslims-in-america/573688/148 "2011-03-07T04:16:07Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > Zionism is support for a Jewish state in Israel. Not really. > [@](#): > > You’re totally wrong about that second part. Ok, please provide a cite to show that most American Christians identify themselves as Zionists. It’s very possible to have a favorable view of Israel without being a Zionist. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2011, 4:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-these-hearings-demonize-muslims-in-america/573688/149 "2011-03-07T04:21:38Z")
> [@magellan01](#): > > The point is that the most/all of the terrorism done by Muslims in the U.S is done in the name of Islam. That is not the case for people who happened to be Christian, like Mcveigh. I would beg to differ with that. Can you cite an act of anti-abortion terrorism that was not ostensibly done in the name of Christianity? ---
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2011, 4:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-these-hearings-demonize-muslims-in-america/573688/150 "2011-03-07T04:24:12Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > I would beg to differ with that. Can you cite an act of anti-abortion terrorism that was not ostensibly done in the name of Christianity? Well, you don’t differ. Everything I’ve posted assumes that to be the case. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2011, 4:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-these-hearings-demonize-muslims-in-america/573688/151 "2011-03-07T04:24:46Z")
> [@Ibn\_Warraq](#): > > Not really. > > Ok, please provide a cite to show that most American Christians identify themselves as Zionists. > **[Americans Maintain Broad Support for Israel](https://news.gallup.com/poll/146408/americans-maintain-broad-support-israel.aspx)** > > Americans' views toward the Israeli-Palestinian conflict held fairly steady over the past year, with a near record-high 63% continuing to say their sympathies lie more with the Israelis. Seventeen percent sympathize more with the Palestinians. > [@](#): > > It’s very possible to have a favorable view of Israel without being a Zionist. If they support a Jewish state in Israel, they are Zionists. That’s what the word means. Israel wouldn’t even exist if it wasn’t for the broad support of American Christians. ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2011, 4:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-these-hearings-demonize-muslims-in-america/573688/152 "2011-03-07T04:40:31Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > [Americans Maintain Broad Support for Israel](http://www.gallup.com/poll/146408/americans-maintain-broad-support-israel.aspx) > > If they support a Jewish state in Israel, they are Zionists. That’s what the word means. > > Israel wouldn’t even exist if it wasn’t for the broad support of American Christians. Your cite says nothing about Zionism and gives no evidence that Christian Americans are more likely to identify themselves as Zionists. Moreover the people aren’t asked if they support “a Jewish state in Israel” They are asked: > [@](#): > > In the Middle East are your sympathies more with the Palestinians or more with the Israelis Being asked if you sympathize “more with the Palestinians or more with the Israelis” is not the same as being asked if they “support a Jewish state in Israel.” You need to read more closely the sources you’re citing, this is the third massive error you’ve made on this thread alone. You’ve A)claimed I was Valteron B)claimed that Haq was a Christian when the wiki page you quote from says he claimed he was Muslim at the time of the attack and now C)have claimed that a gallup poll asks people if they support “a Jewish state in Israel”. Beyond that, you show that you don’t understand what Zionism means. Amongst other things it doesn’t even necessarily mean wanting a Jewish state in Israel. In fact many Zionists wanted it elsewhere. For example, many originally wanted it in Uganda. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2011, 5:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-these-hearings-demonize-muslims-in-america/573688/153 "2011-03-07T05:12:35Z")
> [@Ibn\_Warraq](#): > > Your cite says nothing about Zionism and gives no evidence that Christian Americans are more likely to identify themselves as Zionists. It says that 63% support Israel, whicjh is the same as saying they are Zionists. I’m not sure what you think the difference is. > [@](#): > > Being asked if you sympathize “more with the Palestinians or more with the Israelis” is not the same as being asked if they “support a Jewish state in Israel.” Yeah, it pretty much is.You can’t be sympathetic to Israel if you think it shouldn’t exist. [quot]eou’ve A)claimed I was Valteron [/quote] No, I said I thought you’d claimed you lived in Canada because I mozed up one of your posts with \*_Valteron’s_. > [@](#): > > B)claimed that Haq was a Christian when the wiki page you quote from says he claimed he was Muslim at the time of the attack and now He converted to Christianity and I haven’t seen any evidence that he evr converted back. [quote] C)have claimed that a gallup poll asks people if they support “a Jewish state in Israel”. [/quote No I didn’t. I didn’t say what the question was. I provided a poll showing that a majority support Israel. I didn’t say specifically what the question was (though it’s a distinction without a difference). > [@](#): > > Beyond that, you show that you don’t understand what Zionism means. Amongst other things it doesn’t even necessarily mean wanting a Jewish state in Israel. In fact many Zionists wanted it elsewhere. For example, many originally wanted it in Uganda. If you want to be really pedantic it means favoring Jewish self-determinination, but after the establishment of Israel, that distinction is academic. ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2011, 5:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-these-hearings-demonize-muslims-in-america/573688/154 "2011-03-07T05:20:52Z")
Since no poster, not even the OP, wishes to debate the topic identified in the Original Post, I am closing it. [/Moderating] [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-these-hearings-demonize-muslims-in-america/573688.md?page=7)