# Will This \*Never\* End? (More from McVeigh) **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [June 5, 2001, 9:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-this-never-end-more-from-mcveigh/67651 "2001-06-05T09:00:06Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Arden\_Ranger](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/b487fb/32.png) [@Arden\_Ranger](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Arden_Ranger)\ **Post date:** [June 5, 2001, 5:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-this-never-end-more-from-mcveigh/67651/21 "2001-06-05T17:55:58Z")
Ah, **Drastic**. If only it were so. ---
**Author:** ![Fletch](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/919ad9/32.png) [@Fletch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fletch)\ **Post date:** [June 5, 2001, 6:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-this-never-end-more-from-mcveigh/67651/22 "2001-06-05T18:03:57Z")
I have no sympathy at all for McVeigh, he admitted the crime, he has no remorse and his actions merit the worst punishment. I am concerned about the actions of the FBI and other government agencies. They all have lawyers to ensure they follow the letter of the law and they are not new to evidence laws. The FBI withheld evidence, was this a foul up? It makes you wonder how many other cases have had evidence manipulated or fouled up. The FBI has put the victims families through yet more hell. ---
**Author:** ![CalMeacham](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/calmeacham/32/35_2.png) [@CalMeacham](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CalMeacham)\ **Post date:** [June 5, 2001, 6:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-this-never-end-more-from-mcveigh/67651/23 "2001-06-05T18:33:46Z")
> [@](#): > > You might be right, but it doesn’t seem that Jones is exactly an infallible source. I’ve read Lou Michel and Dan Herbeck’s American Terrorist, which presents thing’s from McVeigh’s perspective, and is based on a series of interviews with him. McVeigh bashes Jones throughout the book, and dismissed him as his lawyer, because of Jones’ dogged attempts in trying to prove that there was a conspiracy in the OKC bombing despite McVeigh’s own insistence there wasn’t. Nor is McVeigh an infallible source. I don’t know if Jones was justified in pursuing a “conspiracy” explanation against his client’s wishes, but the evidence he turned up _does_ STRONGLY indicate one, despite what McVeigh says. Jones has nasty things to say about **American Terrorist** , in response. To tell the truth, Jones doesn’t come off as a guy in it only for the money. Not to me, at any rate. None of this exonerates McVeigh. Jones still thinks he’s guilty. He just doesn’t think he’s alone. ---
**Author:** ![Tranquilis](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tranquilis/32/3639_2.png) [@Tranquilis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tranquilis)\ **Post date:** [June 5, 2001, 7:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-this-never-end-more-from-mcveigh/67651/24 "2001-06-05T19:12:47Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Drastic \* > \*\*Lethal injection, high voltage, the short sharp crack of a neck snapping in the noose, those are too good and too expensive even compared against the cost of simply warehousing for the monsters hiding in human skin among us. \*\* Execution serves two purposes: One: It humanely (in theory) puts-down the rabid beasts among us. Two (and more importantly): It defines the boundaries of civilization. Part One: When we lock-up the unrecoverable animals, the utter sociopaths, the McVeighs of the world, we have no intention of ever releasing them. Prison becomes mere vengance, and rather petty and incomplete vengance, at that. We’re stuck with the care and feeding of an animal that would cheerfully kill us, given the whim and oportunity. No one ought be asked to do that. The fact is, we _can’t_ give these examples of human trash what they’ve given us: One, they don’t care (if they cared, they’d not be unrecoverable); Two, we can’t kill them enough times to make them suffer as their victims did. So: Put them down, and get on with the healing. UltraMax isolation is either a death sentence, carried out in a squeamish manner, or it’s cruel torture. Either way, it lessens us. We’re _better_ than that, or at least we said so when we declared the condemned’s actions criminal. Part Two: By executing criminals for certain crimes, society marks the limits of tollerable behavior, with a puntuation mark that even the least sensitive can grasp. Capital punishment is expensive, and it _should_ be that way. That helps insure it’s only used for the most extreme crimes. It also ought to be far more certain than it currently is: There _are_ innocents on death row, and that neeeds be corrected, and soon. That said, execution isn’t a _direct_ deterent to crime, but serves as a subtle and important one, none-the-less. Capital crimes are our ultimate ‘out-of-bounds’. So, again: Let McVeigh wriggle. When he’s done, we’ll put him down, and move on with our lives. ---
**Author:** ![Drastic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/f9ae1b/32.png) [@Drastic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Drastic)\ **Post date:** [June 5, 2001, 9:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-this-never-end-more-from-mcveigh/67651/25 "2001-06-05T21:06:42Z")
> [@](#): > > Execution serves two purposes: One: It humanely (in theory) puts-down the rabid beasts among us. Two (and more importantly): It defines the boundaries of civilization. Just a few years ago. I no longer do. Theory and practice work differently, and a great number of countries in the modern world live on just fine with their undefined boundaries, and have much lower murder rates despite a lack of such subtle indirect (and thus unquantifiable) deterrents. And I’ll leave the debate alone there, because when it comes down to it, the death penalty isn’t an area I have emphatic feelings about. It’s less of a moral issue and simply a practical one. However, my idea won’t ever come about, so putting him down is the next best thing. ---
**Author:** ![Drastic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/f9ae1b/32.png) [@Drastic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Drastic)\ **Post date:** [June 5, 2001, 9:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-this-never-end-more-from-mcveigh/67651/26 "2001-06-05T21:07:45Z")
Er. Just a few years ago I would have agreed, that is. ---
**Author:** ![Tranquilis](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tranquilis/32/3639_2.png) [@Tranquilis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tranquilis)\ **Post date:** [June 5, 2001, 11:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-this-never-end-more-from-mcveigh/67651/27 "2001-06-05T23:55:56Z")
[QUOTE] \*Originally posted by Drastic \* \*\* > [@](#): > > Theory and practice work differently, and a great number of countries in the modern world live on just fine with their undefined boundaries, and have much lower murder rates despite a lack of such subtle indirect (and thus unquantifiable) deterrents.\*\* Which is why I included the parenthetical statement in the first place. As you’ll note, I’ve some serious issues with the _practice_ of captial punishment as it currently exists. Other countries have different social contracts, which work for them. Ours (currently) includes execution. In our society, it serves a purpose. Should the social contract change, that purpose may go away. ---
**Author:** ![Kamandi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/5daacb/32.png) [@Kamandi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kamandi)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2001, 1:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-this-never-end-more-from-mcveigh/67651/28 "2001-06-06T01:06:07Z")
A friend at work suggested that this current hoo-ha is staged by the feds because they don’t really want to execute McVeigh. Not that they necessarily want to keep him around, the feds just don’t want to begin executing people again. I know nothing about this. Is it possible? ---
**Author:** ![Sterra](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/8c91f0/32.png) [@Sterra](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sterra)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2001, 1:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-this-never-end-more-from-mcveigh/67651/29 "2001-06-06T01:06:07Z")
Maybe Mcveigh will cause the death penalty system to be reformed. ---
**Author:** ![Arden\_Ranger](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/b487fb/32.png) [@Arden\_Ranger](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Arden_Ranger)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2001, 1:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-this-never-end-more-from-mcveigh/67651/30 "2001-06-06T01:40:32Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Kamandi \* > \*\*A friend at work suggested that this current hoo-ha is staged by the feds because they don’t really want to execute McVeigh. Not that they necessarily want to keep him around, the feds just don’t want to begin executing people again. I know nothing about this. Is it possible? \*\* So she’s proposing that they intentionally are making themselves look incompetent and are causing no end of grief to the survivors and the victim’s families? Umm… no. ---
**Author:** ![Montfort](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/d6d6ee/32.png) [@Montfort](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Montfort)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2001, 1:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-this-never-end-more-from-mcveigh/67651/31 "2001-06-06T01:56:25Z")
I give my full and undetered sympathies to those affected by the OKC bomb, and its aftermath, but I have to shake my head at anyone who feels that bloodlust and revenge is the best way to achieve “an end of grief.” For the record, I’m opposed to capital punishment and believe that McVeigh should have his sentence commuted to be life without parole. But, what do I know? I wasn’t there. ---
**Author:** ![Arden\_Ranger](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/b487fb/32.png) [@Arden\_Ranger](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Arden_Ranger)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2001, 2:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-this-never-end-more-from-mcveigh/67651/32 "2001-06-06T02:59:53Z")
I never said no one else could have a dissenting opinion, {b]Montfort\*\*. I was explaining why _mine_ is what it is and why it’s not a cavalier attitude, nor is it unique. A cavalier attitude is him saying that the children were “Collateral Damage”. I think he should die a slow and horrible death. But if they want to keep him in his plexiglass walled cell, fine. A lot of us just don’t want to hear or see another friggin’ word from him. ---
**Author:** ![Typo\_Negative](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/typo_negative/32/484_2.png) [@Typo\_Negative](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Typo_Negative)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2001, 11:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-this-never-end-more-from-mcveigh/67651/33 "2001-06-06T11:57:32Z")
I think he should have to spend many years in prison, playing nurse-maid to large convict named ‘Bubba’. ---
**Author:** ![Arden\_Ranger](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/b487fb/32.png) [@Arden\_Ranger](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Arden_Ranger)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2001, 1:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-this-never-end-more-from-mcveigh/67651/34 "2001-06-06T13:15:18Z")
heh. Only if they make him wear the uniform that goes with that scenario. And a gag. ---
**Author:** ![Michael\_Ellis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/977dab/32.png) [@Michael\_Ellis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Michael_Ellis)\ **Post date:** [June 7, 2001, 12:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-this-never-end-more-from-mcveigh/67651/35 "2001-06-07T00:29:40Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Arden Ranger \* > [There’s nothing cavalier about it. I was _there_ when they pulled bodies out of the debris, when family members were identifying their loved ones and when friends of mine were having nightmares because they were in buildings close enough to be damaged by the blast. I’m _here_ in Oklahoma where I see the results of what he did every fucking day. Arden, I sympathise completely. I was living in Norman (20 or so miles south of OKC) when it happened. I was in 6th Grade at the time and I found out about it from a student who said his father worked at the Federal Building. I never did find out if he was one of the victims or not. I never even knew the kid’s name. The kicker was that we used to drive by the blast site on the way to my psychiatrist’s office. Madness. Total madness. ---
**Author:** ![Tranquilis](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tranquilis/32/3639_2.png) [@Tranquilis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tranquilis)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2001, 12:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-this-never-end-more-from-mcveigh/67651/36 "2001-06-08T00:38:05Z")
McVeigh’s [giving up](http://www.cnn.com/2001/LAW/06/07/mcveigh.court.04/index.html). > [@](#): > > “Mr. McVeigh does not want to proceed any further in legal actions in order to stop his execution,” defense attorney Rob Nigh said. Peace at last? ---
**Author:** ![Arden\_Ranger](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/b487fb/32.png) [@Arden\_Ranger](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Arden_Ranger)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2001, 1:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-this-never-end-more-from-mcveigh/67651/37 "2001-06-08T01:02:39Z")
For the father of Wanda Howell > [@](#): > > Paul Howell, the father of one victim killed in the blast, said he hoped the delays would end soon. > > “The only way to shut this man up and for us to get any kind of peace of mind is to actually give him the execution,” he said. Yes. ---
**Author:** ![Measure\_for\_Measure](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/measure_for_measure/32/557_2.png) [@Measure\_for\_Measure](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Measure_for_Measure)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2001, 5:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-this-never-end-more-from-mcveigh/67651/38 "2001-06-08T05:24:31Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Arden Ranger \* > A lot of us just don’t want to hear or see another friggin’ word from him. Ok, but there will be investigators, journalists and conspiracy theorists speculating about whether McVeigh and Nichols acted alone for the next 20+ years. And the level-headed will lose the opportunity to ask him certain questions. And it will be claimed that McVeigh was silenced for suspicious reasons. To some (nutjobs), he will become a martyr. What he won’t do is fade away a la Kaczynski. ---
**Author:** ![Saint\_Zero](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/c4cdca/32.png) [@Saint\_Zero](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Saint_Zero)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2001, 2:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-this-never-end-more-from-mcveigh/67651/39 "2001-06-08T14:12:48Z")
I keep wondering if killing him will actually do any good. I mean, I doubt it’ll bring back one person who died. I doubt it’ll make anyone suddenly feel better. I don’t think the next clever militaman will think “Dang, they’re serious about this, I’d better not.”. In short, what good will it do? If someone else is serious about this, they’ll do it. The next one will just put “This is for Tim, you lousy Feds!” in his message. On the other hand, I can halfway sympathise with the guy for wanting to get it over with, if only to get away from the press and everything. ---
**Author:** ![Typo\_Negative](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/typo_negative/32/484_2.png) [@Typo\_Negative](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Typo_Negative)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2001, 2:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-this-never-end-more-from-mcveigh/67651/40 "2001-06-08T14:29:02Z")
Why am I so irked when the lawyer refers to him as _Mr._ McVeigh, as if the man should be shown some respect. It’s the little things that get to me… [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-this-never-end-more-from-mcveigh/67651.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-this-never-end-more-from-mcveigh/67651.md?page=3)