# Will trump sign the "Religious Liberty" order and what will it mean for americans?? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [May 3, 2017, 6:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-trump-sign-the-religious-liberty-order-and-what-will-it-mean-for-americans/785797 "2017-05-03T18:34:33Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 16\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2017, 7:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-trump-sign-the-religious-liberty-order-and-what-will-it-mean-for-americans/785797/21 "2017-05-04T19:01:08Z")
> [@Richard\_Parker](#): > > The EO doesn’t do anything. > > The only operative language says that Treasury won’t “take any adverse action against any individual, house of worship, or other religious organization on the basis that such individual or organization speaks or has spoken about moral or political issues from a religious perspective, \*\*where speech of similar character has, consistent with law, not ordinarily been treated as participation or intervention in a political campaign \*\*on behalf of (or in opposition to) a candidate for public office by the Department of the Treasury.” > > IOW, we’re going to keep following the same customary rules we’ve been following. That’s what I thought it said, but I wasn’t sure if there was some legal trickery going on. It does look like a great deal of nothing. ---
**Author:** ![Falchion](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/a88e57/32.png) [@Falchion](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Falchion)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2017, 7:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-trump-sign-the-religious-liberty-order-and-what-will-it-mean-for-americans/785797/22 "2017-05-04T19:06:16Z")
> [@Richard\_Parker](#): > > The EO doesn’t do anything. > > The only operative language says that Treasury won’t “take any adverse action against any individual, house of worship, or other religious organization on the basis that such individual or organization speaks or has spoken about moral or political issues from a religious perspective, \*\*where speech of similar character has, consistent with law, not ordinarily been treated as participation or intervention in a political campaign \*\*on behalf of (or in opposition to) a candidate for public office by the Department of the Treasury.” > > IOW, we’re going to keep following the same customary rules we’ve been following. Reading it, it looks to me like it’s concerned about a Bob Jones University situation as opposed to avoiding the Johnson Amendment. ---
**Author:** ![Richard\_Parker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/35a633/32.png) [@Richard\_Parker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Richard_Parker)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2017, 7:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-trump-sign-the-religious-liberty-order-and-what-will-it-mean-for-americans/785797/23 "2017-05-04T19:44:55Z")
> [@Falchion](#): > > Reading it, it looks to me like it’s concerned about a Bob Jones University situation as opposed to avoiding the Johnson Amendment. I agree. Gotta stand up for bans on interracial marriage. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2017, 8:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-trump-sign-the-religious-liberty-order-and-what-will-it-mean-for-americans/785797/24 "2017-05-04T20:27:16Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > That’s what I thought it said, but I wasn’t sure if there was some legal trickery going on. It does look like a great deal of nothing. _“Speech of similar character has, consistent with law, not ordinarily been treated as participation or intervention in a political campaign”_ is just such an awkward and convoluted phrase that it makes me feel there’s a legal gotcha hiding in it. The President of the United States doesn’t issue an Executive Order just to declare he’s going to continue doing things the same way they’ve been done in the past. Trump’s changing something but he doesn’t want it to be clear what it is. ---
**Author:** ![Richard\_Parker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/35a633/32.png) [@Richard\_Parker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Richard_Parker)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2017, 8:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-trump-sign-the-religious-liberty-order-and-what-will-it-mean-for-americans/785797/25 "2017-05-04T20:43:44Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > The President of the United States doesn’t issue an Executive Order just to declare he’s going to continue doing things the same way they’ve been done in the past. Trump’s changing something but he doesn’t want it to be clear what it is. I think it’s well past time to revise your assumptions about what a President of the United States does, given who holds the office. This EO may well have some hidden consequence. Smart people will figure that out. But it’s also entirely possible–and consistent with his past practice–that he just wants the press to run stories about him protecting religious freedom. ---
**Author:** ![nightshadea](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/7ba0ec/32.png) [@nightshadea](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/nightshadea)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2017, 9:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-trump-sign-the-religious-liberty-order-and-what-will-it-mean-for-americans/785797/26 "2017-05-04T21:10:04Z")
You know I’m reminded of Florence and sarvanola … I think were going to have an incident like that for the religious folks to realize they were better off when church and state were separate the bigger question is will trump ever be able to spreading his cheeks in payment to the theocrats for helping him to get elected and stand up straight and be his own person … that’s why pence is vp to make sure the so called alt right gets theirs … but its easie for him r to sell off things he really doesn’t care about anyways… ---
**Author:** ![DSYoungEsq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/c6cbf5/32.png) [@DSYoungEsq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSYoungEsq)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2017, 10:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-trump-sign-the-religious-liberty-order-and-what-will-it-mean-for-americans/785797/27 "2017-05-04T22:22:46Z")
> [@Richard\_Parker](#): > > The EO doesn’t do anything. > > The only operative language says that Treasury won’t “take any adverse action against any individual, house of worship, or other religious organization on the basis that such individual or organization speaks or has spoken about moral or political issues from a religious perspective, \*\*where speech of similar character has, consistent with law, not ordinarily been treated as participation or intervention in a political campaign \*\*on behalf of (or in opposition to) a candidate for public office by the Department of the Treasury.” > > IOW, we’re going to keep following the same customary rules we’ve been following. No. What the EO is doing is saying that churches will henceforth be treated as any other organization that has to avoid being too political. Now, whether or not it is true, there is a perception among certain religious organizations that they are monitored much more strictly on this issue. The order says, “Stop doing that.” YMMV. ---
**Author:** ![suranyi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e36b37/32.png) [@suranyi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/suranyi)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2017, 10:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-trump-sign-the-religious-liberty-order-and-what-will-it-mean-for-americans/785797/28 "2017-05-04T22:32:52Z")
The ACLU just came out with a statement saying that they read the EO and, in their view, it means nothing. Nothing would actually change as a result of it. Therefore they are not taking any action at this time. ---
**Author:** ![Crane](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crane/32/3495_2.png) [@Crane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Crane)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2017, 10:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-trump-sign-the-religious-liberty-order-and-what-will-it-mean-for-americans/785797/29 "2017-05-04T22:48:45Z")
Obviously the EO encourages religious organizations to test the limits of political participation. And, the Attorney General is the deciding authority. “Sec. 4. Religious Liberty Guidance. In order to guide all agencies in complying with relevant Federal law, the Attorney General shall, as appropriate, issue guidance interpreting religious liberty protections in Federal law.” This is a dog that was better left sleeping. Crane ---
**Author:** ![Richard\_Parker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/35a633/32.png) [@Richard\_Parker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Richard_Parker)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2017, 10:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-trump-sign-the-religious-liberty-order-and-what-will-it-mean-for-americans/785797/30 "2017-05-04T22:48:45Z")
> [@DSYoungEsq](#): > > No. > > What the EO is doing is saying that churches will henceforth be treated as any other organization that has to avoid being too political. Now, whether or not it is true, there is a perception among certain religious organizations that they are monitored much more strictly on this issue. The order says, “Stop doing that.” > > YMMV. I don’t think “stop doing this thing that isn’t happening” is different from the position I’ve taken (along with the ACLU). ---
**Author:** ![Whack-a-Mole](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/whack-a-mole/32/141_2.png) [@Whack-a-Mole](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Whack-a-Mole)\ **Post date:** [May 5, 2017, 12:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-trump-sign-the-religious-liberty-order-and-what-will-it-mean-for-americans/785797/31 "2017-05-05T00:55:44Z")
> [@DSYoungEsq](#): > > What the EO is doing is saying that churches will henceforth be treated as any other organization that has to avoid being too political. Now, whether or not it is true, there is a perception among certain religious organizations that they are monitored much more strictly on this issue. The order says, “Stop doing that.” Ha! Perception is not reality in this case. Tax exempt organizations are banned from participating in elections: > [@](#): > > Under the Internal Revenue Code, all section 501(c)(3) organizations are absolutely prohibited from directly or indirectly participating in, or intervening in, any political campaign on behalf of (or in opposition to) any candidate for elective public office. > > SOURCE: [The Restriction of Political Campaign Intervention by Section 501(c)(3) Tax-Exempt Organizations | Internal Revenue Service](https://www.irs.gov/charities-non-profits/charitable-organizations/the-restriction-of-political-campaign-intervention-by-section-501-c-3-tax-exempt-organizations) > [@](#): > > Political-minded ministers are flouting federal tax law by preaching politics from the pulpit as part of a nationwide movement to defy the Internal Revenue Service. > > The IRS has taken virtually no action against the pastors, whose churches risk losing their tax-exempt status over their election messages. > > SOURCE: [https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/federal-eye/wp/2014/11/04/political-pastors-defying-irs-rules-on-candidate-endorsements/](https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/federal-eye/wp/2014/11/04/political-pastors-defying-irs-rules-on-candidate-endorsements/) If churches want to give up their tax exempt status then fine. Till then they are breaking the law and getting away with it. I’d bet dollars to dimes if Planned Parenthood flouted this rule they lose their tax exempt status in a political heartbeat. [sup](I will stipulate you are just the messenger and do not necessarily hold the position you just posted.)[/sup] ---
**Author:** ![DSYoungEsq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/c6cbf5/32.png) [@DSYoungEsq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSYoungEsq)\ **Post date:** [May 5, 2017, 1:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-trump-sign-the-religious-liberty-order-and-what-will-it-mean-for-americans/785797/32 "2017-05-05T01:39:54Z")
The IRS has not always been strict in its interpretation of what violates the Johnson Amendment. My guess would be that the Trump administration has one or two such examples in mind and will use them to establish “not ordinarily been treated as participation or intervention in a political campaign on behalf of (or in opposition to) a candidate for public office by the Department of the Treasury.” Then, watch them drive trucks through it. ---
**Author:** ![Whack-a-Mole](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/whack-a-mole/32/141_2.png) [@Whack-a-Mole](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Whack-a-Mole)\ **Post date:** [May 5, 2017, 1:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-trump-sign-the-religious-liberty-order-and-what-will-it-mean-for-americans/785797/33 "2017-05-05T01:50:50Z")
> [@DSYoungEsq](#): > > The IRS has not always been strict in its interpretation of what violates the Johnson Amendment. True and there may be gray areas but assessing what those pastors did against the rule leaves little room for interpretation. Unfortunately, as you said, this is about perception. They “think” they are being badgered therefore they are. Never mind they are actually brazenly flouting the law and getting away with it. ---
**Author:** ![Lord\_Feldon](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lord_feldon/32/341_2.png) [@Lord\_Feldon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lord_Feldon)\ **Post date:** [May 5, 2017, 2:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-trump-sign-the-religious-liberty-order-and-what-will-it-mean-for-americans/785797/34 "2017-05-05T02:16:42Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > The President of the United States doesn’t issue an Executive Order just to declare he’s going to continue doing things the same way they’ve been done in the past. Trump has signed several other meaningless “executive orders.” He hasn’t gotten anything done, so he’s basically signing blank pieces of paper and holding them up for the cameras to see. ---
**Author:** ![Whack-a-Mole](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/whack-a-mole/32/141_2.png) [@Whack-a-Mole](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Whack-a-Mole)\ **Post date:** [May 5, 2017, 2:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-trump-sign-the-religious-liberty-order-and-what-will-it-mean-for-americans/785797/35 "2017-05-05T02:26:01Z")
> [@Lord\_Feldon](#): > > Trump has signed several other meaningless “executive orders.” He hasn’t gotten anything done, so he’s basically signing blank pieces of paper and holding them up for the cameras to see. If you haven’t already you really should follow the [Trump Draws](https://twitter.com/trumpdraws?lang=en) Twitter feed. Funny stuff about a scary person. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [May 5, 2017, 3:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-trump-sign-the-religious-liberty-order-and-what-will-it-mean-for-americans/785797/36 "2017-05-05T03:34:32Z")
> [@Richard\_Parker](#): > > I think it’s well past time to revise your assumptions about what a President of the United States does, given who holds the office. > > This EO may well have some hidden consequence. Smart people will figure that out. But it’s also entirely possible–and consistent with his past practice–that he just wants the press to run stories about him protecting religious freedom. > [@Lord\_Feldon](#): > > Trump has signed several other meaningless “executive orders.” He hasn’t gotten anything done, so he’s basically signing blank pieces of paper and holding them up for the cameras to see. I’m not arguing that Donald Trump is coming up with all these Executive Orders. I’m not willing to bet that he’s even read all of these Executive Orders he’s signed. But somebody in the White House is crafting these orders and sending them to the Oval Office. And there hasn’t been a rush of meaningless Executive Orders whose only purpose is to generate a press release. I just checked the list and most of Trump’s orders have real effects. They fall in to three broad categories: reversing Obama’s Executive Orders; eliminating regulations; and targeting foreigners. I found six that were probably mostly intended for publicity. But they all follow the same pattern. Trump extols something and announces he’s forming a special committee to act on it. It’s a good strategy: it allows Trump to look like he’s doing something but by the time the committee is scheduled to produce its recommendations, public attention will have moved on and nobody will notice if nothing actually gets done. This new Executive Order doesn’t follow that pattern. Trump didn’t announce he will have the situation investigated; he’s already announcing the new policy. That’s what he does when he’s actually making changes. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-trump-sign-the-religious-liberty-order-and-what-will-it-mean-for-americans/785797.md?page=1)