# Will vaccinations be required? \[Edited: Will you get a vaccine if legally mandated\] **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [August 25, 2020, 10:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-vaccinations-be-required-edited-will-you-get-a-vaccine-if-legally-mandated/919016 "2020-08-25T22:01:12Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [August 26, 2020, 5:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-vaccinations-be-required-edited-will-you-get-a-vaccine-if-legally-mandated/919016/21 "2020-08-26T05:47:34Z")
“The government wants to inject us with microchips so they can track us”, he posted on Facebook from his GPS-enabled, Google-powered, Bluetooth-ready Wifi smartphone, as the Uber driver, satisfied that the Paypal linked to his checking account would cover his costs, dropped him off at a place that was nobody’s business. ---
**Author:** ![mikecurtis](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mikecurtis/32/3284_2.png) [@mikecurtis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mikecurtis)\ **Post date:** [August 26, 2020, 8:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-vaccinations-be-required-edited-will-you-get-a-vaccine-if-legally-mandated/919016/22 "2020-08-26T08:06:35Z")
> [@DSeid](#): > > Kids are the easiest to get vaccinated but (barring a vaccine that provides very long term protection) would benefit from being vaccinated the least. Can you explain this? ---
**Author:** ![paulmarkj](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/9e8a1a/32.png) [@paulmarkj](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/paulmarkj)\ **Post date:** [August 26, 2020, 9:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-vaccinations-be-required-edited-will-you-get-a-vaccine-if-legally-mandated/919016/23 "2020-08-26T09:38:04Z")
The point of the story is that people will do it because they want to. Much like (in the 70s/80s) people were scared the government would extend CCTV to intrude on our lives, but in the end, it was private companies would increased CCTV 100-fold and it was us who voluntarily signed up to facebook/twitter/etc. ---
**Author:** ![DSeid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dseid/32/20194_2.png) [@DSeid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSeid)\ **Post date:** [August 26, 2020, 9:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-vaccinations-be-required-edited-will-you-get-a-vaccine-if-legally-mandated/919016/24 "2020-08-26T09:51:48Z")
Easiest because of the ability to create and implement state vaccine mandates. Least benefit because they are at the least risk of serious COVID-19 disease. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [August 26, 2020, 5:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-vaccinations-be-required-edited-will-you-get-a-vaccine-if-legally-mandated/919016/25 "2020-08-26T17:05:10Z")
Kids appear to be carriers, and they wont social distance and masking is difficult. Not to mention some weird long term health effects are showing up. So yeah, vaccinating kids will help. ---
**Author:** ![Kimera757](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kimera757/32/3765_2.png) [@Kimera757](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimera757)\ **Post date:** [August 26, 2020, 5:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-vaccinations-be-required-edited-will-you-get-a-vaccine-if-legally-mandated/919016/26 "2020-08-26T17:12:51Z")
> [@urbanredneck2](#): > > To ensure enforcement people will be required to have a “chip” implanted under their skin which will tell whomever if you’ve been vaccinated or not. That is not going to happen. We shouldn’t give anti-vaxxers a legitimate reason to resist. I will get the vaccination when it’s available, but there’s no way in hell I’m letting someone put a chip in me. Why not attach that to my ID instead? ---
**Author:** ![DSeid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dseid/32/20194_2.png) [@DSeid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSeid)\ **Post date:** [August 26, 2020, 5:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-vaccinations-be-required-edited-will-you-get-a-vaccine-if-legally-mandated/919016/27 "2020-08-26T17:41:57Z")
Your certainty that kids are major transmitters is neither here or there. The standard for mandating vaccinations on children is generally convincing evidence of a significant direct benefit to the child. In general even very strong convincing evidence of major benefit to others is insufficient. The only exception I know if was the rubella vaccine which had the main benefit of preventing congenital rubella syndrome. Influenza vaccination has a much better and established case to make on both counts but does not cross the threshold. Mandating a vaccine that does not cross the threshold undermines public acceptance and support of required vaccines in general. ---
**Author:** ![Jackmannii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jackmannii/32/311_2.png) [@Jackmannii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jackmannii)\ **Post date:** [August 26, 2020, 5:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-vaccinations-be-required-edited-will-you-get-a-vaccine-if-legally-mandated/919016/28 "2020-08-26T17:49:44Z")
I think it’s likely that employees of businesses in which public contact is essential as well as some other workers (in food handling, for instance) will be required to be vaccinated against Covid-19. All health care workers and hospital/clinic employees will be included in this number. Schoolchildren is a trickier subject, but we do have to consider teachers and other adult employees at risk of contracting the disease from kids. Mandatory chip-insertion/tracking is a paranoid fantasy. You _will_ on the other hand have to install a telescreen in your home so that Bill Gates can lead you in Physical Jerks every morning. ---
**Author:** ![MandaJo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ac91a4/32.png) [@MandaJo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MandaJo)\ **Post date:** [August 26, 2020, 6:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-vaccinations-be-required-edited-will-you-get-a-vaccine-if-legally-mandated/919016/29 "2020-08-26T18:41:53Z")
Do you object to the rubella vaccine on those grounds? ---
**Author:** ![susan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/susan/32/17537_2.png) [@susan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/susan)\ **Post date:** [August 26, 2020, 8:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-vaccinations-be-required-edited-will-you-get-a-vaccine-if-legally-mandated/919016/30 "2020-08-26T20:21:35Z")
1. Yes, I had HAV/HBV vaccinations pretty early on for this reason, as well as a TB check every other year. 2. _He thinks dynamic tension must be hard work._ ---
**Author:** ![DSeid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dseid/32/20194_2.png) [@DSeid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSeid)\ **Post date:** [August 26, 2020, 9:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-vaccinations-be-required-edited-will-you-get-a-vaccine-if-legally-mandated/919016/31 "2020-08-26T21:23:08Z")
No. Noting however that that one, which protected children from serious birth defects, presumed at the time with one shot, added in at the height of public trust in immunizations as miracles, and in government and science, is the only one I can think of that does not give sizable direct benefit to the child getting the vaccine. Trying to force a vaccine over parent objections, for the claimed good of other adults much more than for the child, likely every couple of years, would today result in a predictable backlash that would generalize against vaccines in general. ---
**Author:** ![mikecurtis](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mikecurtis/32/3284_2.png) [@mikecurtis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mikecurtis)\ **Post date:** [August 27, 2020, 3:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-vaccinations-be-required-edited-will-you-get-a-vaccine-if-legally-mandated/919016/32 "2020-08-27T03:44:39Z")
> [@DSeid](#): > > The standard for mandating vaccinations on children is generally convincing evidence of a significant direct benefit to the child. In general even very strong convincing evidence of major benefit to others is insufficient. The only exception I know if was the rubella vaccine which had the main benefit of preventing congenital rubella syndrome. This is the answer I was asking for before. Was that so hard? ---
**Author:** ![nelliebly](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/nelliebly/32/5422_2.png) [@nelliebly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/nelliebly)\ **Post date:** [August 27, 2020, 4:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-vaccinations-be-required-edited-will-you-get-a-vaccine-if-legally-mandated/919016/33 "2020-08-27T04:20:24Z")
Nope, not hard at all, but also not the consensus of experts. [Newsweek](https://www.newsweek.com/states-should-require-coronavirus-vaccine-kids-attend-school-some-experts-say-1526571): > Michelle Kelly, an associate professor of nursing at Villanova University, called the measure **“absolutely essential” if a new coronavirus vaccine becomes available**. Without assuring access to the vaccination, the messaging about the need to be inoculated won’t matter, Kelly said. > > Part of the messaging has to focus on the direct risk to each child, according to Milstone. While attempts to convince people to follow social distancing guidelines and practice proper hand hygiene has been geared toward protecting the vulnerable, Milstone said asking people to protect their community isn’t always as “powerful” as asking them to protect themselves. > > **“It’s not just, ‘Hey be a good citizen and help your community, get your kid vaccinated!’ They also need to understand kids can die of this,” Milstone said.** “Once there’s a vaccine that becomes a vaccine-preventable death and that’s a lot of burden to live with if you don’t vaccinate your kid.” From [Wisconsin](https://www.wpr.org/will-wisconsin-kids-need-eventual-covid-19-vaccine-go-school-history-has-some-answers) [bolding mine]: > A COVID-19 vaccine would also have to be approved by the state Legislature or DHS to be added to the list of vaccines required for kids in schools and day cares. > > George Morris, president of the Wisconsin Medical Society and a practicing physician at Ascension Columbia St. Mary’s in Milwaukee, said he expects the eventual COVID-19 vaccine to be added to that requirement. > > “ **I do think we absolutely can and we will mandate it** ,” he said. “The question will be, what do we choose to do about personal exemptions? That will be the test.” Children won’t be in a vaccination priority group. For one thing, vaccines won’t be tested on children until they’re proven safe for adults. But certainly many experts believe that COVID vaccinations should and will be required for children. ---
**Author:** ![DSeid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dseid/32/20194_2.png) [@DSeid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSeid)\ **Post date:** [August 27, 2020, 4:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-vaccinations-be-required-edited-will-you-get-a-vaccine-if-legally-mandated/919016/34 "2020-08-27T16:54:47Z")
My perspective is from the pediatric trench dealing with both the relatively few anti-vaxxers and the more common vaccine hesitant, sometimes successfully, always spending frustrating amounts of time and energy in the effort. Mandating a covid vaccine for children, who get sick from it rarely (not never) and who transmit much less than do adults (very unlike influenza), would strengthen the anti-vaccine movement to levels never before seen, and the pushback would generalize against vaccine recommendations, hell against trust in health policy overall. We take away parental autonomy to make decisions (including ones we disagree with) for their children when the case is _very_ solid that the harms avoided to the child and to society are large. And even then we keep fingers crossed that nothing shows in post marketing analysis and brace for dealing with the adverse events that coincidentally occur with a few weeks of the vaccine. (This even in days before social media.) Stripping that autonomy away without those strong cases made would be disastrous. ---
**Author:** ![puzzlegal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/puzzlegal/32/3827_2.png) [@puzzlegal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puzzlegal)\ **Post date:** [August 27, 2020, 5:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-vaccinations-be-required-edited-will-you-get-a-vaccine-if-legally-mandated/919016/35 "2020-08-27T17:35:33Z")
When the rubella vaccine came out, they only vaccinated girls. (Because boys don’t care if their baby is damaged?) When the Hep B vaccine came out, it was voluntary – I remember asking my dad for advice on whether to give it to my daughter. When the covid vaccines comes out I assume it will first go to healthcare workers and nursing home staff. It should go next to other “essential workers” who either want it or whose employers demand it. And then to other adults. Even if we try to vaccinate everyone ASAP I expect it to take a while. Hopefully, the covid vaccine(s) will have a decent track record before we start vaccinating kids. And when that happens, you will absolutely be able to make a case that it is protecting this child from a potentially nasty disease. I mean, not a lot of kids die from chicken pox, either. But there’s not a huge outrage at the chickenpox vaccine. ---
**Author:** ![puzzlegal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/puzzlegal/32/3827_2.png) [@puzzlegal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puzzlegal)\ **Post date:** [August 27, 2020, 5:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-vaccinations-be-required-edited-will-you-get-a-vaccine-if-legally-mandated/919016/36 "2020-08-27T17:37:35Z")
> [@DSeid](#): > > Mandating a covid vaccine for children, … who transmit much less than do adults (very unlike influenza) Do we know that now? I’ve seen mixed data. Most of the initial data was just observational in situations where a child was unlikely to be the first member of a household to be exposed, so not super convincing. (I do expect that we’ll have a lot more data after a lot of schools and daycare facilities open this fall. For good or ill. Hopefully for good, since my cousin works at one.) ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [August 27, 2020, 6:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-vaccinations-be-required-edited-will-you-get-a-vaccine-if-legally-mandated/919016/37 "2020-08-27T18:23:05Z")
> [@urbanredneck2](#): > > They decide to make it mandatory. Who is ‘they’ here? The state government? Local government? Federal government? I actually am unsure any of them could make vaccines mandatory. > [@urbanredneck2](#): > > To ensure enforcement people will be required to have a “chip” implanted under their skin which will tell whomever if you’ve been vaccinated or not. Seem highly unlikely, as it would cost even more than the vaccine would. Would I go along with being chipped? I would protest, but if a government could actually get any of this through then I’m unsure how folks wouldn’t ‘go along’, as we are talking about a total totalitarian take over. As to taking the vaccine, it’s going to depend to be honest. If it’s the Russian vaccine currently being given, or the potential Chinese vaccine that waved 3rd stage testing then I’d be a bit hesitant to take it in May without a lot of data about the almost certain side effects and downsides. If it’s a US or European (or other company in a reputable country) then I’d be less hesitant, though that’s a pretty rushed vaccine IMHO, so there would be risks. I’d almost certainly take it anyway, however, even if we are talking only a few months or a year of protection as seems to be likely at this stage. ---
**Author:** ![DSeid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dseid/32/20194_2.png) [@DSeid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSeid)\ **Post date:** [August 27, 2020, 7:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-vaccinations-be-required-edited-will-you-get-a-vaccine-if-legally-mandated/919016/38 "2020-08-27T19:11:43Z")
Responding to both posts. To boys only first because they (cis-boys anyway) don’t get pregnant. Then went for herd immunity and scored. Pretty sure the vaccine (if there is one) will not be so restrictive even at first. Can’t confidently extrapolate from adults to kids on this. And there may be a bit of a catch 22 … worked well and safely on adults and rates drop far down then little drive have kids get it. Doesn’t work so hot on adults little willingness to give it to kids. In terms of knowing kids, at least elementary school aged, are fractionally as effective of transmitters as adults, unlike influenza? Yes we know that. What that fraction is we don’t know. The big South Korea study initially said half but then review found that the adults had more likely been infected by the same other source as the kids were. Studies have documented nasal carriage possibly even higher than adults, but not actual effective transmission. But that is the grist of a different thread! For the purpose of this thread let’s state the much lesser, that there is no solid evidence that kids drive the infection through communities, like there is for influenza. ---
**Author:** ![Broomstick](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/broomstick/32/246_2.png) [@Broomstick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Broomstick)\ **Post date:** [August 27, 2020, 9:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-vaccinations-be-required-edited-will-you-get-a-vaccine-if-legally-mandated/919016/39 "2020-08-27T21:29:44Z")
> [@urbanredneck2](#): > > Lets say in May next year they come out with a vaccine. They decide to make it mandatory. If you dont get the vaccine you will not be able to attend school or go into a place of business or use public transportation. Eventually you will risk arrest and forced vaccination. To ensure enforcement people will be required to have a “chip” implanted under their skin which will tell whomever if you’ve been vaccinated or not. This has never been required for any other vaccination, why would this one be different? For the record - I get regular vaccinations and boosters as it is, and probably keep up with them more than average. The one exception is the vaccine I’ve had a very bad reaction to, so that’s a legit medical reason. I don’t object to vaccines, I do object to chipping humans. > [@urbanredneck2](#): > > Will you go along with this? No. Chipping is for material objects and chattel livestock, and I am neither of those. > [@urbanredneck2](#): > > It’s pure speculation (or is it?). Check out this story: [You eventually WILL be chipped.](https://www.usatoday.com/story/tech/2017/08/09/you-get-chipped-eventually/547336001/) Again, chipping is for material objects and chattel livestock, and I am neither of those. > [@Senegoid](#): > > But I will be very hesitant to get any Covid-19 vax as long as the Trump administration is in place. I won’t trust any American-developed, American-made, or American-authorized Covid vax while Trump is in office. As soon as Trump is out, or soon thereafter when a Covid vax is available that I can trust, then sure. ^ This. > [@puzzlegal](#): > > When the covid vaccines comes out I assume it will first go to healthcare workers and nursing home staff. It should go next to other “essential workers” who either want it or whose employers demand it. And then to other adults. That’s great in theory but under the current administration I expect politicians and Trump’s family and cronies will be prioritized over everyone else. THEN the healthcare workers, although I expect the people who do the cleaning in healthcare facilities will be at the bottom of the list because the sorts we have now running things tend not to see or think about the little people at the bottom. Kind of wonder where grocery store workers like myself will fall. ---
**Author:** ![iamthewalrus\_3](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/258eb7/32.png) [@iamthewalrus\_3](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iamthewalrus_3)\ **Post date:** [August 27, 2020, 10:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-vaccinations-be-required-edited-will-you-get-a-vaccine-if-legally-mandated/919016/40 "2020-08-27T22:12:06Z")
> [@urbanredneck2](#): > > It’s pure speculation (or is it?). Check out this story: [You eventually WILL be chipped.](https://www.usatoday.com/story/tech/2017/08/09/you-get-chipped-eventually/547336001/) I mean, by definition this is pure speculation. The article is simply an argument that someday in the future the benefits will be salient enough and people won’t care that much. It may or may not be correct speculation, but it’s speculation. I doubt people will ever be mass-chipped. We already all carry personally identifiable computers with us and face recognition is getting very good. > [@DSeid](#): > > Actually doubt that, under any reasonably optimistic expectation for a COVID-19 vaccine (which includes the likely need for updates from each year to at least every few years), at least not by standards usually used to justify and to implement required immunization for school entry. > > Kids are the easiest to get vaccinated but (barring a vaccine that provides very long term protection) would benefit from being vaccinated the least. Thank you for offering your expertise! I learned something important here. I can easily see that I could be wrong about schools requiring it. As a counterpoint, though: We never shut down the global economy to stop measles, and most of the diseases we have vaccines for hit kids hard. Perhaps this time it’s different enough that a different public health calculus applies? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-vaccinations-be-required-edited-will-you-get-a-vaccine-if-legally-mandated/919016.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-vaccinations-be-required-edited-will-you-get-a-vaccine-if-legally-mandated/919016.md?page=3)