# Will vaccinations be required? \[Edited: Will you get a vaccine if legally mandated\] **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [August 25, 2020, 10:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-vaccinations-be-required-edited-will-you-get-a-vaccine-if-legally-mandated/919016 "2020-08-25T22:01:12Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![puzzlegal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/puzzlegal/32/3827_2.png) [@puzzlegal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puzzlegal)\ **Post date:** [August 27, 2020, 11:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-vaccinations-be-required-edited-will-you-get-a-vaccine-if-legally-mandated/919016/41 "2020-08-27T23:41:40Z")
> [@Broomstick](#): > > Kind of wonder where grocery store workers like myself will fall. You are an essential worker! I hope you are pretty high in the priority list. ---
**Author:** ![Broomstick](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/broomstick/32/246_2.png) [@Broomstick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Broomstick)\ **Post date:** [August 27, 2020, 11:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-vaccinations-be-required-edited-will-you-get-a-vaccine-if-legally-mandated/919016/42 "2020-08-27T23:57:35Z")
You’d think so, but there are still people who view us as less important than other people. ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [August 27, 2020, 11:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-vaccinations-be-required-edited-will-you-get-a-vaccine-if-legally-mandated/919016/43 "2020-08-27T23:57:43Z")
> [@iamthewalrus\_3](#): > > I mean, by definition this is pure speculation. The article is simply an argument that someday in the future the benefits will be salient enough and people won’t care that much. It may or may not be correct speculation, but it’s speculation. I’m not saying anyone here falls into this category, but the fundamentalist loons expecting Jesus to return soon see chipping as something predicted in Revelations. I think they’ve given up expecting everyone to get bar codes on their forehead. I know someone who believes this. ---
**Author:** ![nelliebly](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/nelliebly/32/5422_2.png) [@nelliebly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/nelliebly)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2020, 12:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-vaccinations-be-required-edited-will-you-get-a-vaccine-if-legally-mandated/919016/44 "2020-08-28T00:29:51Z")
Let’s not assume that because someone is a physician, his or her opinion on COVID is valid. Some physicians allow their political beliefs to shape their medical perspective. Take, for example, the two conservative MD’s who run an urgent care clinic in Bakersfield, CA who claimed early on that COVID was no worse than the flu. Their “study” was heavily criticized, and rightly so. It’s pretty obvious that their political leanings and financial motivation were the motivation behind their claims. COVID has, unfortunately, become heavily politicized. That’s why it’s important to recognize real expertise lies with experts who are epidemiologists, virologists, infectious disease physicians, and public health officials, not individual physicians whose views are shaped by their political leanings or their wishful thinking. ---
**Author:** ![nearwildheaven](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/90db22/32.png) [@nearwildheaven](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/nearwildheaven)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2020, 1:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-vaccinations-be-required-edited-will-you-get-a-vaccine-if-legally-mandated/919016/45 "2020-08-28T01:43:56Z")
Not for everything for which vaxing is used (and required in some areas). I doubt if they require vaccines for anthrax, HPV, hepatitis A, yellow fever, rabies, etc. for school attendance. ---
**Author:** ![nearwildheaven](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/90db22/32.png) [@nearwildheaven](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/nearwildheaven)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2020, 1:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-vaccinations-be-required-edited-will-you-get-a-vaccine-if-legally-mandated/919016/46 "2020-08-28T01:46:02Z")
Vaxing girls only for rubella was a way to circumvent shortages. Remember that Gardasil and Cervarix were also advised for girls only, and of course is still highly controversial for so many reasons. ---
**Author:** ![SayTwo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e56c9b/32.png) [@SayTwo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SayTwo)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2020, 1:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-vaccinations-be-required-edited-will-you-get-a-vaccine-if-legally-mandated/919016/47 "2020-08-28T01:46:18Z")
> [@nelliebly](#): > > COVID has, unfortunately, become heavily politicized. That’s why it’s important to recognize real expertise lies with experts who are epidemiologists, virologists, infectious disease physicians, and public health officials, not individual physicians whose views are shaped by their political leanings or their wishful thinking. Shall I assume it’s safe to say that you don’t think any of those with ‘real expertise’ are likewise swayed by biases, or even have them to begin with? Well, I assume you do admit that they have political leanings, just like everyone else in the body politic. But no biases associated with those that would be relevant here, right? ---
**Author:** ![Jackmannii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jackmannii/32/311_2.png) [@Jackmannii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jackmannii)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2020, 1:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-vaccinations-be-required-edited-will-you-get-a-vaccine-if-legally-mandated/919016/48 "2020-08-28T01:51:51Z")
It is incorrect to say that children “rarely” get sick from Covid-19. About 7-9% of U.S. cases have been in the pediatric population. Yes, COVID cases are typically milder in kids, and in many instances asymptomatic. Still, the pediatric hospitalization rate from COVID, according to the American Academy of Pediatrics is somewhere between 0.6 and 9% of cases, not so “rare”, and starting to overlap with hospitalization rates for other diseases for which vaccination is mandated. Transmission of the disease based on preliminary data may rival that seen in adults. Viral counts in kids may actually be higher. If parents are not sufficiently alarmed by risks to their own healthy children, teachers or other school workers, there are those with pre-existing conditions who are likely to face greater risk of serious illness and death from a school-related COVID outbreak. How about (for example) kids being treated for cancer or who have congenital immunosuppression? The jury is still out on the overall impact. There will be tough choices to make about mandating a new vaccine for schoolchildren. Without such a mandate however, the widespread resumption of traditional classroom teaching is no sure thing. Sources include CDC stats and the following: > **[How COVID-19 affects babies and children](https://www.mayoclinic.org/diseases-conditions/coronavirus/in-depth/coronavirus-in-babies-and-children/art-20484405)** > > Know the symptoms of COVID-19 in children, what to do if your child appears sick and how to keep your family healthy. > **[What scientists are learning about kids and Covid-19 infection](https://www.vox.com/21352597/covid-19-children-infection-transmission-new-studies)** > > Several new studies are deepening our understanding of infection and transmission in kids, but there’s still a lot we don’t know. ---
**Author:** ![DSeid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dseid/32/20194_2.png) [@DSeid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSeid)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2020, 3:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-vaccinations-be-required-edited-will-you-get-a-vaccine-if-legally-mandated/919016/49 "2020-08-28T03:35:40Z")
Per most recent [CDC numbers hospitalization rates](https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-ncov/hcp/pediatric-hcp.html#:~:text=Recent%20COVID%2D19%20hospitalization%20surveillance,rates%20in%20children%20are%20increasing.) are 8.0 per 100,000 population, with the highest rate among children aged \<2 years (24.8) for COVID-19 in the pediatric population (under 18). That compares to adults of 164.5 per 100,000 in the same period, and of course much much higher, 412.9, for those over 65, and a fraction of typical annual childhood influenza hospitalizations with immunization programs widely promoted. The low death numbers have been discussed before. These pandemic year numbers aint zero. There are some children, including some without pre-existing conditions, who get severely ill, from COVID-19 and associated with having had it. A single death, a single child and their family having to deal with an ICU stay (and kids who are hospitalized have similar ICU admission rates as adults, even if _they_ are usually out of the ICU within two days), is a tragic event. But it is specious to claim that those numbers are not something that is occurring relatively rarely. Kids would benefit much less from a covid-19 vaccine than adults would. Assuming a mandated covid-19 vaccine of similar level safety and efficacy as influenza vaccines, kids would benefit much more from mandating the influenza vaccine, and they _are_ big spreaders of that. (Of interest Massachusetts just passed a school influenza mandate, inclusive of colleges.) ---
**Author:** ![urbanredneck2](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/5f8ce5/32.png) [@urbanredneck2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/urbanredneck2)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2020, 1:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-vaccinations-be-required-edited-will-you-get-a-vaccine-if-legally-mandated/919016/50 "2020-08-28T13:06:24Z")
> [@Senegoid](#): > > But I will be very hesitant to get any Covid-19 vax as long as the Trump administration is in place. I won’t trust any American-developed, American-made, or American-authorized Covid vax while Trump is in office. As soon as Trump is out, or soon thereafter when a Covid vax is available that I can trust, then sure. Ok, I get you hate Trump. But what gives you such blind faith in democrats? ---
**Author:** ![running\_coach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/running_coach/32/15836_2.png) [@running\_coach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/running_coach)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2020, 1:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-vaccinations-be-required-edited-will-you-get-a-vaccine-if-legally-mandated/919016/51 "2020-08-28T13:15:32Z")
> [@urbanredneck2](#): > > > [@Senegoid](#): > > > > But I will be very hesitant to get any Covid-19 vax as long as the Trump administration is in place. I won’t trust any American-developed, American-made, or American-authorized Covid vax while Trump is in office. As soon as Trump is out, or soon thereafter when a Covid vax is available that I can trust, then sure. > > Ok, I get you hate Trump. But what gives you such blind faith in democrats? - Because the Democrats want an actual, working vaccine, not a PR “win”. ---
**Author:** ![urbanredneck2](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/5f8ce5/32.png) [@urbanredneck2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/urbanredneck2)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2020, 1:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-vaccinations-be-required-edited-will-you-get-a-vaccine-if-legally-mandated/919016/52 "2020-08-28T13:16:49Z")
> [@running\_coach](#): > > Because the Democrats want an actual, working vaccine, not a PR “win”. Ok, well I cannot argue with that can I? ---
**Author:** ![RitterSport](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rittersport/32/6326_2.png) [@RitterSport](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RitterSport)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2020, 1:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-vaccinations-be-required-edited-will-you-get-a-vaccine-if-legally-mandated/919016/53 "2020-08-28T13:24:18Z")
Not really. Trump pushed for reopening too early to get a PR win. He pushed snake-oil miracle cures for a PR win. ---
**Author:** ![puzzlegal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/puzzlegal/32/3827_2.png) [@puzzlegal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puzzlegal)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2020, 2:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-vaccinations-be-required-edited-will-you-get-a-vaccine-if-legally-mandated/919016/54 "2020-08-28T14:22:58Z")
> [@running\_coach](#): > > Because the Democrats want an actual, working vaccine, not a PR “win”. Honestly, there a HUGE amount of money at stake for when vaccines get approved, and whose makes it to market first, and which ones are paid for. I’ll be a little anxious about the first vaccine(s) approved no matter who is in office. ---
**Author:** ![running\_coach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/running_coach/32/15836_2.png) [@running\_coach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/running_coach)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2020, 2:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-vaccinations-be-required-edited-will-you-get-a-vaccine-if-legally-mandated/919016/55 "2020-08-28T14:27:46Z")
> [@puzzlegal](#): > > I’ll be a little anxious about the first vaccine(s) approved no matter who is in office. - So will I as the current vaccines in process are being rushed as it is. However, I believe that Biden will allow the science to determine when to deploy while Trump will rush things based on whoever caught his ear last and/or his poll numbers. The fact is, even when a vaccine is available, it will take months for the effects to be known with any certainty. ---
**Author:** ![Jackmannii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jackmannii/32/311_2.png) [@Jackmannii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jackmannii)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2020, 2:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-vaccinations-be-required-edited-will-you-get-a-vaccine-if-legally-mandated/919016/56 "2020-08-28T14:49:01Z")
From the linked Vox article: "…one of the [largest-scale pediatric studies](https://www.thelancet.com/journals/lanchi/article/PIIS2352-4642(20)30177-2/fulltext) to date, which appeared in late June in _Lancet Child & Adolescent Health_…looked at [data from 582 children under the age of 18 in 21 countries](https://www.thelancet.com/journals/lanchi/article/PIIS2352-4642(20)30177-2/fulltext) and found that “Covid-19 is generally a mild disease in children.” But, it acknowledged, kids can sometimes get seriously ill: More than half of the children in the study were admitted to a hospital, and four died. That hospitalization rate may be higher than average because kids were included in the study only if they were sick enough to be tested or admitted to a hospital. The American Academy of Pediatrics estimates that somewhere between [0.6 percent and 9 percent](https://services.aap.org/en/pages/2019-novel-coronavirus-covid-19-infections/children-and-covid-19-state-level-data-report/) of pediatric Covid-19 cases result in hospitalization. A [preprint](https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101/2020.03.26.20044826v1.full.pdf) study that has not yet been peer-reviewed of 31 household clusters in five countries found that [12 percent](https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101/2020.03.26.20044826v1.full.pdf) of children had severe cases. There’s growing evidence that ([https://academic.oup.com/jpids/article/doi/10.1093/jpids/piaa070/5849922](https://academic.oup.com/jpids/article/doi/10.1093/jpids/piaa070/5849922)) children with preexisting conditions like cardiac disabilities have an increased risk of severe cases. Rarely, children with Covid-19 are also developing a [severe, multi-system inflammatory syndrome](https://www.vox.com/2020/5/13/21257568/kids-covid-19-kawasaki-pediatric-multisymptom-inflammatory-disease) that causes a high fever and a rash and can be deadly. Out of the 342 children in the US with the syndrome, [71 percent](https://www.cdc.gov/mis-c/cases/index.html) were in Hispanic and non-Hispanic Black children — more evidence of Covid-19’s disturbingly disproportionate impact on communities of color in the country. We’re also still learning about [long-term consequences](https://www.vox.com/2020/7/14/21324201/covid-19-long-term-effects-symptoms-treatment) and prolonged symptoms of Covid-19, which appear to affect as many as [87 percent](https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jama/fullarticle/2768351) of adults, and we don’t know what that might look like in kids." So it seems a bit…_premature_ to suggest that children won’t significantly benefit from an effective Covid-19 vaccine. As for specious playing with numbers: one can look at hospitalizations for measles before the vaccine became available, and say that since only 0.07% of America’s children needed to be hospitalized with measles on a yearly basis, the disease was mild and insignificant (antivaxers tend to focus on the even lower number of deaths to argue against need for a mandatory measles vaccine). The point is that impact of COVID on healthy kids, in addition to disproportionate harm to minority kids, those with pre-existing conditions and vulnerable adults within and outside school settings, is enough to at least consider adding a Covid-19 vaccine to the pediatric schedule - and that benefit to children may well match or exceed that of currently mandated vaccines. Whether or not parents otherwise confronted with a long-term need to oversee their children at home during “virtual” education will be more receptive to a vaccination program that allows schools to reopen, remains to be seen. Note: immunization advocates are keenly aware of the hazards of rushing a COVID vaccine into use (i.e. the Operation Warp Speed nonsense). An unsatisfactory vaccine with unacceptably high incidence of significant side effects would be considerably worse than no vaccine at all. ---
**Author:** ![RitterSport](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rittersport/32/6326_2.png) [@RitterSport](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RitterSport)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2020, 3:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-vaccinations-be-required-edited-will-you-get-a-vaccine-if-legally-mandated/919016/57 "2020-08-28T15:17:35Z")
Will you get the vaccine if they will shoot you in the face immediately if you’re not chipped? How about if you’d be violently sterilized with a hacksaw if you’re not vaccinated? How about if they’ll drop a safe on your loved ones if you don’t get the vaccine? On the school front, I think they will be required to go back to school, if they’re ever widely available. ---
**Author:** ![DSeid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dseid/32/20194_2.png) [@DSeid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSeid)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2020, 4:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-vaccinations-be-required-edited-will-you-get-a-vaccine-if-legally-mandated/919016/58 "2020-08-28T16:33:13Z")
> [@Jackmannii](#): > > … As for specious playing with numbers: one can look at hospitalizations for measles before the vaccine became available, and say that since only 0.07% of America’s children needed to be hospitalized with measles on a yearly basis, the disease was mild and insignificant … 0.07% is a rate of 70 per 100,000, roughly ten times the pediatric covid rate. Infection rates were nearly 100% of which 200 per 100,000 ([0.2%](https://www.cdc.gov/vaccines/pubs/pinkbook/meas.html)) DIED. Most of the risk was borne by children; the benefit to the vaccination program directly most to them. Those who believe that measles rarely caused death or severe disease are simply ill-informed. Measles immunization is the achetype of a vaccine that it makes sense to mandate. One associated with quite _high_ morbidity and mortality in kids, one that was proven to be spread _extremely_ effective by kids (90% secondary attack rate), a vaccine that is highly effective (persistent 97% plus with two shots), so on. COVID-19? _Not_ associated with high morbidity and mortality in children, _not_ proven to be spread effectively by children, _no_ expectation of that sort of vaccine efficacy let alone of persistent efficacy, so on …). The opposite end of the spectrum in pretty much every way. ---
**Author:** ![puzzlegal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/puzzlegal/32/3827_2.png) [@puzzlegal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puzzlegal)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2020, 5:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-vaccinations-be-required-edited-will-you-get-a-vaccine-if-legally-mandated/919016/59 "2020-08-28T17:02:15Z")
> [@Jackmannii](#): > > We’re also still learning about [long-term consequences](https://www.vox.com/2020/7/14/21324201/covid-19-long-term-effects-symptoms-treatment) and prolonged symptoms of Covid-19, which appear to affect as many as [87 percent](https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jama/fullarticle/2768351) of adults, and we don’t know what that might look like in kids." > > So it seems a bit… _premature_ to suggest that children won’t significantly benefit from an effective Covid-19 vaccine. Yeah, I would have all the same concerns for my kids as I have for me, but at the point where I would want it for me, I would definitely want it for my kids. And if that means we both got a booster every year, I’d do that, too. ---
**Author:** ![iamthewalrus\_3](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/258eb7/32.png) [@iamthewalrus\_3](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iamthewalrus_3)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2020, 5:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-vaccinations-be-required-edited-will-you-get-a-vaccine-if-legally-mandated/919016/60 "2020-08-28T17:03:31Z")
> [@DSeid](#): > > Kids would benefit much less from a covid-19 vaccine than adults would. Assuming a mandated covid-19 vaccine of similar level safety and efficacy as influenza vaccines, kids would benefit much more from mandating the influenza vaccine, and they _are_ big spreaders of that. (Of interest Massachusetts just passed a school influenza mandate, inclusive of colleges.) I agree that this is true, but right now we can’t even safely open schools because even though the direct health impact to children is lower than to the rest of the population, the public health impact is too great. A vaccine mandate would mean that we _could_ safely open schools. It seems like the broader public health implications here may result in a departure from the criteria we’ve used in the past. Like, if you say that kids have to have the vaccine to go to school, then kids who get the vaccine can safely go to school and those who don’t can do distance learning or whatever. Which seems like a strict improvement from the current situation, where no one can safely go to school. Has there ever previously been a disease that (1) is severe enough to largely disrupt basic functions of society (2) is relatively mild for children but not for adults and (3) has a vaccine? I can’t think of one, but I’m certainly not an expert. But if I’m right and there hasn’t, then guidelines that applied to past diseases that we had vaccines for _and primarily affected children_ might not be applicable here. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-vaccinations-be-required-edited-will-you-get-a-vaccine-if-legally-mandated/919016.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-vaccinations-be-required-edited-will-you-get-a-vaccine-if-legally-mandated/919016.md?page=4)