Will we ever be able to kill off religion?

It’s interesting that you chose to lump the Holocaust among with the other atrocities that you mentioned.

Oh, and since you raised the subject… remember the challenge which I raised earlier? The one in which I challenged y’all to consider the millions who were slaughtered under regimes which sought to eradicate religion (to “kill it off,” as per the OP)? The regimes of Stalin, Lenin, Mao Tse Tung and Pol Pot? Would you care to guess how those stack up against the atrocities committed during the Crusades and the Salem witch trials? You might be surprised.

Here’s a tip. Get a copy of the Guiness Book of World Records and look under “Mass Murders.” Then tell us which is worse: a society wherein religion is promoted, or one in which one attempts to eradicate religion.

As myself and others have repeatedly asserted, the forms of government we have come to call Stalinist or Maoist regimes in no way fit the criteria of a secular humanist society, where skepticism is the core ethos. These systems of govt. deified the state, and worse, the individuals at the head of these states. As a prime example, Mao in particular took on the quality, in the minds of his subjects, which he certainly did not discourage, of a demigod or god-emperor, a figure of infallible judgement, and the source of absolute law. In this respect, he assumed the mantle of a classic Chinese emperor, who was traditionally regarded as a divine entity. The Marxist characterization of religion as “the opiate of the masses” was the ideological excuse for brutal prohibition of religious practice (among a host of other practices deemed incompatible with the ideology of the State); but the underlying motivation was simply a struggle for power, which only the State would weild. Since the State was held in these regimes to be the sole font of Truth, no other mode of thought espousing other Truths could be tolerated. And the authority to commit mass murder was derived from the divine nature of the leader, as understood by the subjects. In this regard, Maoist stifling of any for of thinking not in accord with its own philosophies is in every way analogous to the Roman Church’s crackdown on heresy during the Inquisition.

And if you cannot acknowledge the Christian antecedent, such as the passion account in the Book of Matthew, in the character of the twisted eugenics of the Third Reich, you are in denial.

And if I had claimed that they did, then you might have a point. I have neither agreed nor disagreed with that claim, and so your objection is irrelevant.

The OP posited that the world would be much better off without religion. Obviously, this is not something that can be verified via scientific experimentation; however, based on the data which we do have, we see that religion-free societies have fared far worse than societies in which religion is either tolerated or encouraged. In fact, they are many orders of magnitude worse.

“Now wait a minute!” one might object. “A society in which religion is exterminated doesn’t have to descend to such depths!” Maybe, maybe not – but even if we grant this claim, the counter-argument could be made that societies which tolerate religion do not have to engage in murderous Crusades or other such atrocities. What’s sauce for the goose is sauce for the gander.

Unfortunately, this is how theist-atheist debates often turn out. There are invariably atheists who pipe up and complain about the killing which were performed by religious practitioners, even when these killings are in direct violation of those particular religious teachings. Mention the killings performed by atheistic regimes though, and they quickly insist that those murders were performed for purely political reasons – even though the regimes in question specifically attempted to suprress and punish any and all forms of religion.

It’s a vicious double standard.

No, it is not. For one thing, and this is the last time I think one ought to have to repeat something, Maoism, and Stalinism, were, for all practical purposes, *religions[/I.? To say that these were non-religious societies, even if they were ostensibly atheistic societies, is to hold the debater to the strictest form of semantics. If you choose to do so, fine; they’re personality cults. Whatever. Having said that, I’m not even certain they could be called atheistic societies, given that they made gods out of their leaders. To denote them as such is to resort to a flimsy technicality, then. To his subjects, Mao, in my last example, was a kind of god. Even today, in the minds of many, he still is. That should be evidence enough to suggest there was something very special about this form of “atheistic” government.

Now, within a system of thought we more classically refer to as a religion, the purported soundness of one’s judgement one way or another can deremined purely by personal revelation, logic, and interpretation of scripture. In such a system, there is no way to independently verify or gainsay any assertion; any proclemation can be said to be Truth if it can be shown to be in some way compatible with a religious tradition, and informed by personal revelation. If followers have faith that an individual is authoritative in their personal revelations, such revelations have such weight they be accepted as Truth by many without question. The infallibility of the Pope is a good examle of this line of thinking. These days Popes lack the power or inclination to wage wars, but in the past that was not always true. Who are you or I to question the orders of such a figure, if he has the vested power of the faith to take your life or preserve it? If you are found to be a heretic, upon what grounds do you appeal for your defense? Is empirical evidence required? Should it be, if faith is the greatest guide? Many have characterized the excesses of the Inquisition as perversions of faith, but I cannot see how this can be supported. There’s no difference in kind between a benevelent Papal Bull and a malignant one; the difference is only in quality. One who claims Judeo-Christian faith, for instance, can only preach benevolence, seems to selectively ignore many aspects of the core tradition. Which parts of that tradition are more valid than others? And how are the standards for validity met? How do the faithful pick and choose what parts of the tradition are to be read literally, and what parts are meant as allegory or metaphor? Personal revelation and the logic this informs appears to be the only means of analysis, and such personal impressions provide no means by which they can be judged except through trust in faith, within the confines of religion. Since this requires no evidence to support or refute, almost anything could be deemed True if one simply felt it must be. How is one interpretation or another, if it can be shown in any way to not violate some part of a tradition, be judged false? And if faith is the only guide, who can say for certain one approach or another is perverse?

I like Galile just fine. Among the crotchtey, intemperate geezers of history, he is one of my favorites. I simply think that making a claim that he (singular) “invented” either science or the scientific method is absurd. Kepler preceded him. A number of his Jesuit opponents were following the same mental processes that he was.

Certainly he was among the first to practice investigations in a manner that would later be refined to become the scientific method. He has a place as one of the leaders. I just do not think you can justify a claim for him as a solitary figure that did it all by himself. (For one thing, his ability to ignore evidence from others that did not coincide with his own beliefs makes him, at best, one of the flawed fathers of science.)

Actually, one step further…

Since all humans have a capacity for faith, religion will be wiped out when humans are wiped out. Who’s to say that religion will never appear again once the faithful have been wiped out?

Yes - actually, I was just realizing that we’d have to wipe out every Communist, Libertarian, New Agers and non-theist mystics…

Agnostics are dangerous of course, and radical atheists are just as faithful as the godly.

So, there’s the human race gone.

Yep, it would really be a paradise around with no humans. Until the gorillas evolve or something… :wally

Here, sir…I found this (handing the :wally back to Smiling Bandit) that you accidentally dropped a couple of hours ago. You should keep this in your pocket so it doesn’t accidentally fall out again… :wink: