# Will we ever fight back? When will that line be drawn? **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [April 19, 2022, 3:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-we-ever-fight-back-when-will-that-line-be-drawn/963058 "2022-04-19T15:59:53Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2022, 4:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-we-ever-fight-back-when-will-that-line-be-drawn/963058/81 "2022-04-21T04:40:43Z")
> [@Princhester](#): > > However I guess I mean any progressive goal that - if not achieved - won’t cause economic and social collapse. Right now there is a massive group of working class who would logically benefit from more left leaning policies, but who are wedged off by the right using social issues. They are a large enough group that the US may lose its democracy through their actions. > > If that happens, the timetable for improving the rights of small minorities may not be deferred, it may be cancelled. Which groups do you think should be sacrificed in the name of winning these voters over? And are you a member of any of them? ---
**Author:** ![Princhester](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3e96dc/32.png) [@Princhester](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Princhester)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2022, 4:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-we-ever-fight-back-when-will-that-line-be-drawn/963058/82 "2022-04-21T04:48:04Z")
Your premise is broken. I’m saying some groups are going to keep being sacrificed, either short term or forever, and short term is better. Your second sentence is irrelevant because it is built on an assumption that my suggestion is against those groups’ interests and I don’t agree. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2022, 4:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-we-ever-fight-back-when-will-that-line-be-drawn/963058/83 "2022-04-21T04:50:26Z")
> [@Princhester](#): > > Your premise is broken. I’m saying some groups are going to keep being sacrificed, either short term or forever, and short term is better. Which groups? > [@](#): > > Your second sentence is irrelevant because it is built on an assumption that my suggestion is against those groups’ interests and I don’t agree. But the answer is still “none,” isn’t it? ---
**Author:** ![Princhester](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3e96dc/32.png) [@Princhester](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Princhester)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2022, 4:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-we-ever-fight-back-when-will-that-line-be-drawn/963058/84 "2022-04-21T04:50:48Z")
I already said. Your strategy is utterly transparent - you want me to name certain groups then point out I’m not one of those groups and that I’m being cruel to them. And then pillory me for that so you can ignore my point. It’s BS and I’m not playing. I’m not the one being cruel to minority groups. I’m talking about a strategy for stopping cruelty to minority groups _long term_. Attack my argument ie that short term pain may result in long term gain or fuck off. ---
**Author:** ![Leaper](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/4bbf92/32.png) [@Leaper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Leaper)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2022, 5:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-we-ever-fight-back-when-will-that-line-be-drawn/963058/85 "2022-04-21T05:00:02Z")
OK, so why should the minority groups actually believe you when you say that the “long term” change that will set them free will actually come if they just sat down and shut up and let the Republicans kill them for a while? And for that matter, something I’ve always wondered: what exactly does letting those social issues go _mean_? Like, obviously Democrats should say something if Republicans propose a federal transgender ban bill (right?), but under this paradigm, what would Florida Democrats, for example, say (if anything) about the “Don’t Say Gay” bill? If asked about hot button social topics, what should they say? ---
**Author:** ![Stranger\_On\_A\_Train](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/13edae/32.png) [@Stranger\_On\_A\_Train](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stranger_On_A_Train)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2022, 5:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-we-ever-fight-back-when-will-that-line-be-drawn/963058/86 "2022-04-21T05:12:15Z")
> [@Leaper](#): > > OK, so why should the minority groups actually believe you when you say that the “long term” change that will set them free will actually come if they just sat down and shut up and let the Republicans kill them for a while? This entire notion that ‘wokeness’ (a term almost exclusively used now by conservatives as a perjorative) is what is holding back the Democrats or progressives is a kind of victim-blaming; “if not for _you people_ we would be winning”, e.g. bigotry and excluding people from society is what made our nation really great, and now trying to claim some place in it is really bringing everybody down, man! Meanwhile, the Democratic party has _en masse_ abandoned its roots as representing the interests of working middle class voters in order to court that delicious corporate campaign financing, and only react in being _shocked, shocked_ that these people respond to being exploited and left behind by abandoning the Democratic party. That Joe Manchin is the best they can do in West Virginia—a state that was for so long a stalwart citadel for Democrats but that can now only elect a Democrat-in-name-only that is so far right that he puts conservative Republicans to shame—tells you everything about how the Democratic party has and continues to fail. Biden’s “Build Back Better” plan should have been an instant sell to a nation that has lost so many working class jobs to de-industrialization and off-shoring (despite the shitty name) and yet it can’t even get enough traction to get sold to the Democrats as a whole. Quite frankly, no thinking person gives a genuine fuck about what homosexuals do, or who uses what bathroom, or any of the other culture wars nonsense beyond it being an excuse for outrage; it is just a means to stir up resentment in people who feel some vague sense of being left out or left behind, and the “War on Christmas” nonsense is just a hook to rest their hat upon. The idea that we can just work things out if we continue to keep all of these people in a dark closet somewhere is the same kind of dissonance that is now feeding the absurd outrage over “Critical Race Theory”, an academic hypothesis of the legal basis of socioeconomic inequalities that isn’t taught or studied below the graduate level and certainly not in primary schools to impressionable children. Stranger ---
**Author:** ![Princhester](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3e96dc/32.png) [@Princhester](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Princhester)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2022, 5:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-we-ever-fight-back-when-will-that-line-be-drawn/963058/87 "2022-04-21T05:22:24Z")
Let me answer your question by quoting from above: > [@Buck\_Godot](#): > > Although I don’t share your optimistic time line, I think that this is a key point. The last six or so years has been the equivalent of the battle of the bulge. The left has been winning the culture war hard and fast. The idea the transgendered people could appear in the media as anything other than the butt of crude joke is only a few years old. Now the trend is to fully accept their identity as part of inclusive diversity. > > What we are seeing now is the reaction of large but backwards minority that is suffering cultural whiplash, and so is motivated to fight for what it sees as an existential battle. Unfortunately, realizing that time isn’t on their side has driven them to take desperate measures and take whatever means necessary to enshrine the vestiges of their power in perpetuity. > [@Pleonast](#): > > I think that some people have lost sight of history. How long did it take for women’s suffrage? For actual suffrage for Black people? Or Native Americans? How long for emancipation of Black or female people? For equality of marriages? For actual enforcement of anti-discrimination? These were all _decades_ -long struggles. Because today is far from perfect it’s easy to forget that it is far, far better than last week. If minority groups can’t see that - when it is beyond fucking obvious - there is little I can do. As to what letting these issues go mean - it means letting them go. Do you think powerful R’s actually want, personally, to spend their time being assholes to the oppressed minority _de jure_? No, they just keep stirring the pot because it tempts Dems into talking about it, and wedges Dems’ working class base away. Let them go and it will stop. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2022, 5:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-we-ever-fight-back-when-will-that-line-be-drawn/963058/88 "2022-04-21T05:23:14Z")
> [@Princhester](#): > > It’s BS and I’m not playing. I’m not the one being cruel to minority groups. I’m talking about a strategy for stopping cruelty to minority groups _long term_ . Well, speaking as a member of a minority group that’s a favorite target of the right, may I humbly suggest you take your strategy for our long term future and shove it so far up your ass it starts oozing out your ears? Gutless, milquetoast “allies” like you have stood in front of every single civil rights advance in the history of this nation. If we listened to you pack of useless cocks, we’d still have separate water fountains. “Attack your argument.” What fucking argument? You won’t put forward an argument, because you know as soon as you put your vague alarmism into actual policy, everyone’s going to recognize what an asshole you actually are. What specific issues do you think the Democrats should cede ground on? Should we start pushing bills that ban teaching about the Civil Rights movement, so we can court the anti-CRT crowd? Should the Biden administration not fight any challenges to Obergefell, so the religious bigots will back our tax plan? Stop fighting for abortion rights? Pass a couple bathroom bills of our own, as an olive branch to the right? What actual policy are you advocating here, and who gets thrown under the bus to enact it? ---
**Author:** ![Leaper](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/4bbf92/32.png) [@Leaper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Leaper)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2022, 5:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-we-ever-fight-back-when-will-that-line-be-drawn/963058/89 "2022-04-21T05:24:25Z")
> [@Princhester](#): > > Do you think powerful R’s actually want, personally, to spend their time being assholes to the oppressed minority _de jure_ ? No, they just keep stirring the pot because it tempts Dems into talking about it, and wedges Dems’ working class base away. Let them go and it will stop. OK, here is the fundamental point of disagreement, I think. It even answers my “letting it go” question. Glad to see it on the table plainly. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2022, 5:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-we-ever-fight-back-when-will-that-line-be-drawn/963058/90 "2022-04-21T05:29:57Z")
> [@Princhester](#): > > As to what letting these issues go mean - it means letting them go. Do you think powerful R’s actually want, personally, to spend their time being assholes to the oppressed minority _de jure_ ? No, they just keep stirring the pot because it tempts Dems into talking about it, and wedges Dems’ working class base away. Let them go and it will stop. “Just ignore them, and they’ll go away.” And people try to tell me privilege isn’t a real thing. ---
**Author:** ![Princhester](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3e96dc/32.png) [@Princhester](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Princhester)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2022, 5:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-we-ever-fight-back-when-will-that-line-be-drawn/963058/91 "2022-04-21T05:34:47Z")
I’m not going to attempt to sort that pile of straw (up to and including your last dishonest, misquoting piece of assholishness). Your country is at severe risk of becoming fascist. One of the two largest parties in your country, supported by far too close to 50% of your populace, openly supports a fascist, and that fascist has the open support of his party. He tried to get democracy overthrown after the last election, and still hasn’t lost support. The person who comes after him will likely have the same morals but more competence and may well not fail. In other contexts, I’m pretty sure you’d agree with me about that. Think about some examples of fascist nations in recent times and their record on gay rights. IMHO every single non-fascist in your country needs to have a laser focus on nothing except steadying the ship. If the ship goes down, you will look back on these as golden days for minorities. Tell me I’m wrong in my analysis of the US political situation if you will, but don’t tell me I’m not looking out for you. ---
**Author:** ![Princhester](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3e96dc/32.png) [@Princhester](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Princhester)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2022, 5:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-we-ever-fight-back-when-will-that-line-be-drawn/963058/92 "2022-04-21T05:43:40Z")
To be clear, I’m not suggesting that one “lets it go” permanently. I’m suggesting that one chooses one’s battles. There has been steady progress in improving minority rights over the last 50-odd years. Now is not the same as the last 50 years in US politics and treating it as such is kidding yourself IMHO. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2022, 6:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-we-ever-fight-back-when-will-that-line-be-drawn/963058/93 "2022-04-21T06:03:19Z")
> [@Princhester](#): > > Think about some examples of fascist nations in recent times and their record on gay rights. > > IMHO every single non-fascist in your country needs to have a laser focus on nothing except steadying the ship. If the ship goes down, you will look back on these as golden days for minorities. Dickhead, I don’t need you to lecture me about the fate of queer people under authoritarian regimes. I’m well aware of how precarious my rights are, which is why it’s especially alarming to see people who are allegedly on my side suggest letting the right use me as a chew toy out of political expedience. This isn’t a game. Racism and homophobia aren’t things the American right plays with. They hate us, and they will come for us the minute you give them an opportunity. If we “let it go,” like you suggest, _they will not._ We are at an unprecedented place for queer rights at this moment, and it is _incredibly_ precarious. If we don’t defend it, it will end. You don’t defeat fascism by appeasing it. You don’t oppose it by acquiescing to it. You fight it, and you don’t give a fucking inch. If you’re not willing to fight, the least you can do is sit down, shut up, and stay out of the way of people who will. > [@Princhester](#): > > …but don’t tell me I’m not looking out for you. You’re not looking out for me. You’re stabbing me in the back, and pretending you’re doing me a favor. ---
**Author:** ![Princhester](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3e96dc/32.png) [@Princhester](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Princhester)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2022, 7:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-we-ever-fight-back-when-will-that-line-be-drawn/963058/94 "2022-04-21T07:37:06Z")
I wish you well in your fight **Miller**. Hopefully your current strategy of: - becoming abusive towards those who argue for strategy for helping minorities that you disagree with while not engaging with their point; - strawmanning, and - proposing to passionately and heroically fight battles without apparent consideration of the overall goals of the war will stand you well. ---
**Author:** ![Senegoid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/senegoid/32/6606_2.png) [@Senegoid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Senegoid)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2022, 7:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-we-ever-fight-back-when-will-that-line-be-drawn/963058/95 "2022-04-21T07:37:44Z")
Whoa! You’re all squabbling past each other. Look, for damn sure minority rights are at a precarious place right now. And it’s because of the hate and outrage that right-wingers are drumming up. And they are using that to embiggen and entrench their electoral power. Once they accomplish that, it’s all over. As it stands now, there is little we can do to protect LGBTQ people, pregnant women, Blacks and other minorities. The Republicans have enough power to obstruct all that, and in some states (Florida, Texas, Idaho, e.g.) they have the power to enact ever more repressive and regressive laws. @Miller, just what are Democrats/liberals/progressives supposed to do to counter that? Sure, 1960s-style marches and demonstrations won’t hurt. But first top-most priority must be to enact protections for voting rights: We must utterly overcome all the things Republicans are doing to suppress voting, commandeer election administration, intimidate voters, gerrymanders, etc. Without that, what else can we be doing immediately? Once we get honest and fair elections established, THEN we can go to town on all the other issues: Discrimination of all sorts, climate change, enlightened abortion laws, gun control, worker protections, the whole works. Without that, we can’t get any of that done. So, all @Princhester is saying is, we have to get our battles properly ordered. When the Allies landed at Normandy and captured the beach, they couldn’t march on Berlin the very next day. They had to fight through all the battles in between Normandy and Berlin on the way, in order. And that is what we have to do here. What other plan would work? ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2022, 8:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-we-ever-fight-back-when-will-that-line-be-drawn/963058/96 "2022-04-21T08:53:06Z")
> [@Princhester](#): > > I wish you well in your fight **Miller**. Yeah, wishes are about as much help as I’d expect to get from you. > [@Senegoid](#): > > But first top-most priority must be to enact protections for voting rights: We must utterly overcome all the things Republicans are doing to suppress voting, commandeer election administration, intimidate voters, gerrymanders, etc. Cool. How do we do that? Sit around and send thoughts and prayers to Joe Manchin? How does throwing minority rights under the bus help with that? Yeah, “prioritize voting rights,” whatever the fuck that means in practice, but **Princhester** ’s saying we should sideline social rights issues “for a decade or two.” That’s not prioritizing, that’s abandoning. ---
**Author:** ![Banquet\_Bear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/banquet_bear/32/373_2.png) [@Banquet\_Bear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Banquet_Bear)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2022, 11:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-we-ever-fight-back-when-will-that-line-be-drawn/963058/97 "2022-04-21T11:54:22Z")
> [@Princhester](#): > > To be clear, I’m not suggesting that one “lets it go” permanently. …America is in the middle of an asymmetric war between the Republicans, who have strategically taken control of the courts, have the Police Unions in their pocket, and are churning out bills and legislation through operations like [Project Blitz](https://twitter.com/RGenevieve/status/1515384380297990150), they are taking over school boards and local government…and the Democrats, who for the most part don’t have a clue what is going on. One side has been planning this for decades. One side has learnt how to weaponise propaganda in the digital age using tactics learnt from the likes of g#mergate and Alex J$nes. One side is fundamentally corrupt, seeking money and power. One side seeks white, male supremacy. One side would be happy if trans people no longer existed. And the other side thinks that the reason why they are going to lose the midterm elections is because a few people once said “defund the police”. That other side is outgunned. They are out-flanked. There is no real leadership. They are trying to fight a conventional war in the face of a blitzkrieg. We really can’t, at this stage, make the assumption that the Democrats will “get another chance at this.” Which is why it is more important than ever to fight back on absolutely everything. I said this in Feb last year: > [@Why political forgiveness and cooperation won't be coming any time soon](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-political-forgiveness-and-cooperation-wont-be-coming-any-time-soon/931296/37): > > But I mean, yeah. The Democrats have to hold onto power. If Democrats don’t hold power then America is fucked. MAGA isn’t going away. If you oppose MAGA then **you need to be acting now to keep them out of power in every conceivable possible way**. Governorships. The Mayor. The Sheriff. City Council. School boards. I mean: holding at the State level **should just be a given**. But you’ve got to win every else as well. This isn’t a battle between two rational actors any more. Its going to be a fight and they are never ever going to let up. You’ve got to push back and always keep pushing back. My position hasn’t changed. > [@Senegoid](#): > > But first top-most priority must be to enact protections for voting rights: We must utterly overcome all the things Republicans are doing to suppress voting, commandeer election administration, intimidate voters, gerrymanders, etc. That simply isn’t good enough. There isn’t a “single priority right now.” This should absolutely be a priority for legislators. But you aren’t going to overcome all the things Republicans are doing by pretending that getting this one thing done is all that needs to be done. The OP asks “when will enough be enough?” That time happened long ago. The time to fight back is now. If you aren’t sure what to do: then think local. School boards. Governorships. The Mayor. The Sheriff. City Council. Talk to your local activist groups and find out where you can help. Hold the line. Don’t give them anything. ---
**Author:** ![FlikTheBlue](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fliktheblue/32/10972_2.png) [@FlikTheBlue](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FlikTheBlue)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2022, 12:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-we-ever-fight-back-when-will-that-line-be-drawn/963058/98 "2022-04-21T12:57:48Z")
> [@Why political forgiveness and cooperation won't be coming any time soon](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-political-forgiveness-and-cooperation-wont-be-coming-any-time-soon/931296/37): > > …America is in the middle of an asymmetric war between the Republicans, who have strategically taken control of the courts, have the Police Unions in their pocket, and are churning out bills and legislation through operations like [Project Blitz](https://twitter.com/RGenevieve/status/1515384380297990150), they are taking over school boards and local government… **and the Democrats, who for the most part don’t have a clue what is going on.** > > One side has been planning this for decades. One side has learnt how to weaponise propaganda in the digital age using tactics learnt from the likes of g#mergate and Alex J$nes. One side is fundamentally corrupt, seeking money and power. One side seeks white, male supremacy. One side would be happy if trans people no longer existed. > > **And the other side thinks that the reason why they are going to lose the midterm elections is because a few people once said “defund the police”.** > > **That other side is outgunned. They are out-flanked. There is no real leadership. They are trying to fight a conventional war in the face of a blitzkrieg.** > > We really can’t, at this stage, make the assumption that the Democrats will “get another chance at this.” Which is why it is more important than ever to fight back on absolutely everything. > > I said this in Feb last year: > > > [@Why political forgiveness and cooperation won't be coming any time soon](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-political-forgiveness-and-cooperation-wont-be-coming-any-time-soon/931296/37): > > > > But I mean, yeah. The Democrats have to hold onto power. If Democrats don’t hold power then America is fucked. MAGA isn’t going away. If you oppose MAGA then **you need to be acting now to keep them out of power in every conceivable possible way**. Governorships. The Mayor. The Sheriff. City Council. School boards. I mean: holding at the State level **should just be a given**. But you’ve got to win every else as well. This isn’t a battle between two rational actors any more. Its going to be a fight and they are never ever going to let up. You’ve got to push back and always keep pushing back. > > My position hasn’t changed. > > > [@Senegoid](#): > > > > But first top-most priority must be to enact protections for voting rights: We must utterly overcome all the things Republicans are doing to suppress voting, commandeer election administration, intimidate voters, gerrymanders, etc. > > That simply isn’t good enough. > > There isn’t a “single priority right now.” This should absolutely be a priority for legislators. But you aren’t going to overcome all the things Republicans are doing by pretending that getting this one thing done is all that needs to be done. > > The OP asks “when will enough be enough?” > > That time happened long ago. The time to fight back is now. If you aren’t sure what to do: then think local. School boards. Governorships. The Mayor. The Sheriff. City Council. Talk to your local activist groups and find out where you can help. Hold the line. Don’t give them anything. Excellent post. I agree. My question is what is the best way of doing so, and why won’t / haven’t the strategies that worked in the past work now? The closest comparison I can think of is the 1960s Civil Rights movement, which had significant, though obviously not complete, success. Yes, there was legislation that passed after LBJ strong armed congress, but there was also change in the way a lot of ordinary people think as well. I wasn’t around back than, so I have no direct experience as to how that change was made, but one way or another it was. The response from the right wasn’t the current Trump style MAGA actions. Yes, Nixon and Reagan were in some ways a step back compared to Kennedy and LBJ, but they weren’t fascists and they didn’t take us back to the days of Hoover, Wilson, or even worse, and while they may have been worse personally than LBJ, the country itself kept making progress in spite of them. Then we had the era of the Bushes, Clinton, and Obama, where we continued to make progress here and there, all the while with ordinary people seemingly becoming more progressive as a whole. Now Trump and the MAGAs have shattered my previous conception about how things were supposed to go. What I don’t get is why this happened now, and what people from earlier times did to prevent it from happening then. Is it simply a matter of MLK, LBJ, Malcolm X, etc. being smarter than today’s leaders? Have the ordinary people become softer in some sense compared to people in the 1960s? I honestly don’t understand exactly what happened. Given that I don’t know why we ended up here, I don’t know what, if anything I can personally do differently. Yes, I’m going to vote straight ticked D this fall. No, I’m not going to run for office because I’d suck at it and would likely just make things worse. What else is there? Obviously there are other things that could be done, and if MLK and LBJ were around today they might have some sage advice that could help defeat the MAGAs or get them to change their minds. But they aren’t around, and I’m not smart enough to figure out what they would do if they were. ---
**Author:** ![Jimmy\_Chitwood](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/f475e1/32.png) [@Jimmy\_Chitwood](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jimmy_Chitwood)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2022, 1:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-we-ever-fight-back-when-will-that-line-be-drawn/963058/99 "2022-04-21T13:49:12Z")
> [@Stranger\_On\_A\_Train](#): > > I don’t know what kind of “strike” you are proposing but unless it literally shuts of the lights it will pass without much notice. (Remember #Occupy NOW! Oh, yeah, the weirdos named after condiments that Stephen Colbert mocked because they couldn’t express a coherent purpose of their movement.) Funny thing to bring up in response to the suggestion that Democrats can be complicit in the failure to achieve material progress, and that that’s the result of what is tantamount to bribes. I would bet that you knew exactly what Occupy Wall Street was about, and thought its basic premises were not only things you agreed with, but were inarguable, when you first heard about it. When we all first heard about it, it was like “yeah, of course that’s right.” Put the executives who ruined people’s lives in jail, reform and regulate the banks to prevent this from happening again, get those banks’ money out of political spaces so they can’t buy their way out of these changes, fix the tax code, share the wealth. Purpose wasn’t the problem. The problem was that after a year-plus of seeing and hearing about how “unproductive” they were because they hadn’t somehow passed legislation right there in Zuccotti Park, and how nobody could understand what “economic inequality” means or how the government could possibly do anything about it, and how they must be criminals because the cities decided that was enough and was arresting them by the hundreds, liberals (by and large) decided Occupy was a big joke, and that was what explained that nothing had happened. It’s a perfect example of how Democratic leadership can be complicit: pay the goals lip service, and quietly fail to represent those interests. If there is fear, uncertainty and doubt there, it isn’t because it’s being maliciously planted. The Democrats were not “the enemy” of Occupy in that the Republicans literally are Wall Street, the actual enemy, but in terms of accomplishing the goals of Occupy, a lot of Democrats were more enemy than friend. I mean, it just happened again, in 2020, with policing. Same exact arc. It happens a lot. “What are you going to do, a big strike?” is a fine thing for one plebe to say to another about the fact that we’re all fucked. It’s a little bit of a different thing to say as a defense of the Democratic Party’s uh, occasional failures of revolutionary ambition. ---
**Author:** ![Banquet\_Bear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/banquet_bear/32/373_2.png) [@Banquet\_Bear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Banquet_Bear)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2022, 2:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-we-ever-fight-back-when-will-that-line-be-drawn/963058/100 "2022-04-21T14:00:56Z")
> [@FlikTheBlue](#): > > Given that I don’t know why we ended up here, I don’t know what, if anything I can personally do differently. …I mean, you don’t have to do anything. But the thing you (and everyone else) needs to get your head around is that nobody is coming to save you. This thread from Scott Hechiner paints a picture of where America is right now. > > [@](#): > > People are like, “This is barbaric! What country do we live in?” The United States. One of the most barbaric, racist, cruel, unequal, unhealthy, carceral, militarized, human-rights abusing societies in the world. American Exceptionalism is a sickness keeping us from getting well. > > … > > 32 states in the United States have higher incarceration rates than the next country highest country. > > … > > The United States is the only country in the world that sentences children to life without parole. To death in prison. > > … > > The US is the _only country in the world_ (aside from the Philippines, a former US territory) where bail bondsmen are not outlawed. > > … > > The price of life-saving, necessary medication. Look at how much higher in the U.S. > > … > > 80,000 people caged in solitary confinement. Size of a compact parking spot. For days, weeks, months, years. 15 days is torture under human rights norms. In Michigan alone, 3000 men, women, & children. > > … > > US has a quarter of China’s population, but more people jailed by a half million. > > US has more people caged just _pretrial_, presumed innocent (500,000) than everyone imprisoned in India. > … > > “American exceptionalism” is pouring 100s of billions into policing, prosecution, & prison instead of basic support for mental health, substance use, poverty, & housing. > > … > > 3.7 million more American children fell into poverty in January 2022 after the 2021 Child Tax Credit expired. Wasn’t renewed by the US government. Brings child poverty rate to 17%. Close to 23 million impoverished children. > > … > > “American Exceptionalism” is this “renovated” death chamber in South Carolina where a Black man will soon be strapped down to the chair back left. Hooded. While 3 volunteers train their rifles at his heart. Then murder him. More at the link, with citations. This is already broken. This is already bad. This is already a dystopia nightmare. And it’s about to get worse. If you can’t imagine what more you can do though, then that’s fine. You aren’t alone. Millions of others are in the very same boat. Millions of others won’t really be that much worse off. And if you can live with that: then that’s fine. I don’t know what else to tell you. But if you don’t want things to get worse? Then you need to figure it out. Because nobody is coming to save you. If you want to protect trans students then find your local activists and help them out. Same with abortion. Help educate your family and neighbours who to vote for for local council, or the Sheriff, or the school board. Think local. Do what you can. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-we-ever-fight-back-when-will-that-line-be-drawn/963058.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-we-ever-fight-back-when-will-that-line-be-drawn/963058.md?page=6)