# Will we ever fight back? When will that line be drawn? **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [April 19, 2022, 3:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-we-ever-fight-back-when-will-that-line-be-drawn/963058 "2022-04-19T15:59:53Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 6
**Author:** ![Bill\_Door](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/50afbb/32.png) [@Bill\_Door](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bill_Door)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2022, 2:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-we-ever-fight-back-when-will-that-line-be-drawn/963058/101 "2022-04-21T14:35:19Z")
> [@FlikTheBlue](#): > > I agree. This is how Democrats should be taking on Republicans, not with mealy mouthed statements about trying to be bipartisan. Bipartisanship is a joke. Democrat to Republican: “Will a 10% reduction in expenditures for the Build Back Better plan move us closer together?” Republican reply: “You literally groom children for sex slavery before draining their blood in the pizza shop basements for your unholy immortality rituals.” Democratic riposte: “How about 15%?” ---
**Author:** ![DeadTreasSecretaries](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/deadtreassecretaries/32/4817_2.png) [@DeadTreasSecretaries](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DeadTreasSecretaries)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2022, 3:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-we-ever-fight-back-when-will-that-line-be-drawn/963058/102 "2022-04-21T15:04:45Z")
> [@FlikTheBlue](#): > > The closest comparison I can think of is the 1960s Civil Rights movement, which had significant, though obviously not complete, success. Yes, there was legislation that passed after LBJ strong armed congress, but there was also change in the way a lot of ordinary people think as well. I wasn’t around back than, so I have no direct experience as to how that change was made, but one way or another it was. The response from the right wasn’t the current Trump style MAGA actions. Unfortunately, I think the 60’s especially looking at electoral politics is a situation where the winning side learned to try to keep doing the thing that worked and the losing side learned to change strategies. The 60’s were relatively unique in that the faction that wanted to maintain undemocratic rule was relatively isolated on the national level as a minor party within a party that was losing influence over that party. Now they run one of the political parties and they have the ability and will to block federal legislation that could reform any of this. Meanwhile the other party thinks that we’re still in the LBJ era and can achieve these reforms via an overwhelming consensus like (as they see it) the way we used to do things in spite of how anomalous the 60’s were, in terms of the reform that was possible on a bipartisan basis, in American history. ---
**Author:** ![snowthx](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/snowthx/32/10660_2.png) [@snowthx](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/snowthx)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2022, 3:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-we-ever-fight-back-when-will-that-line-be-drawn/963058/103 "2022-04-21T15:14:34Z")
> [@FlikTheBlue](#): > > Have the ordinary people become softer in some sense compared to people in the 1960s? I honestly don’t understand exactly what happened. IMHO what happened is the emergence of social media where anyone can say anything, unchallenged, and have a lot of other people believe the lies, and then get all worked-up and be willing to take action and/or confront anyone and anything they perceive to be at odds with their cultivated hatred and misinformation. The bubbles social media creates and is creating are what’s changed since the 1960s. ---
**Author:** ![Pleonast](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pleonast/32/1183_2.png) [@Pleonast](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pleonast)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2022, 3:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-we-ever-fight-back-when-will-that-line-be-drawn/963058/104 "2022-04-21T15:33:06Z")
> [@Senegoid](#): > > So, all @Princhester is saying is, we have to get our battles properly ordered. And that’s the problem. The majority of people in the U.S. are anti-fascist. We are capable of doing everything at once. But we won’t get a change unless we are actually trying to make that change. Telling someone to hold off on their priority is blocking someone on our side. Don’t do that! They can work on making the changes they want while you work on making the changes you want. As I said at the beginning of the thread: > [@Pleonast](#): > > Like any insurmountable problem, you tackle it one small step at a time. Do what you can to make the world better; you don’t have to solve everything everywhere forever. Don’t begrudge others for not doing as much as you. Encourage and help them. And then encourage and help those doing more than you. Don’t let fascists divide and conquer us. Asking others to stop working for change is not helpful: > [@Princhester](#): > > Which is why IMHO irritating as it may be I think the sane and moderate need to put their more minor social goals aside for a decade or two and concentrate on the big picture, before they lose democracy altogether. Blaming others for not doing enough is not helpful: > [@epbrown](#): > > The Democrats are part of the same bad system, many unwilling to change it because they benefit just as much from the corruption. Criticizing how others work for change is not helpful. > [@FlikTheBlue](#): > > This is how Democrats should be taking on Republicans, not with mealy mouthed statements about trying to be bipartisan. Direct your frustrations at the enemy. Yes, I know your allies are flawed; you don’t need to explain exactly how. ---
**Author:** ![k9bfriender](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/k9bfriender/32/3283_2.png) [@k9bfriender](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/k9bfriender)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2022, 3:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-we-ever-fight-back-when-will-that-line-be-drawn/963058/105 "2022-04-21T15:54:38Z")
> [@Pleonast](#): > > Telling someone to hold off on their priority is blocking someone on our side. Don’t do that! Well, don’t do that, and then expect them to vote for you. ---
**Author:** ![epbrown](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/e47774/32.png) [@epbrown](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/epbrown)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2022, 5:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-we-ever-fight-back-when-will-that-line-be-drawn/963058/106 "2022-04-21T17:11:48Z")
> [@Pleonast](#): > > Criticizing how others work for change is not helpful. It’s _incredibly_ helpful to the people the change is supposed to benefit; less so for the well-meaning blunderer looking to feel good about themselves no matter how ineffective their efforts are. I believe the refrain you’re looking for is “You just can’t help these people!” ---
**Author:** ![Pleonast](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pleonast/32/1183_2.png) [@Pleonast](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pleonast)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2022, 5:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-we-ever-fight-back-when-will-that-line-be-drawn/963058/107 "2022-04-21T17:35:15Z")
> [@epbrown](#): > > It’s _incredibly_ helpful to the people the change is supposed to benefit; less so for the well-meaning blunderer looking to feel good about themselves no matter how ineffective their efforts are. The fascists appreciate your targeting of their enemies. ---
**Author:** ![epbrown](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/e47774/32.png) [@epbrown](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/epbrown)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2022, 5:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-we-ever-fight-back-when-will-that-line-be-drawn/963058/108 "2022-04-21T17:41:28Z")
Remember, the whole idea behind Big Brother is that he claims to be doing what’s best for you. Sounds like I’ve got more than one set of enemies. ---
**Author:** ![Pleonast](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pleonast/32/1183_2.png) [@Pleonast](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pleonast)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2022, 5:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-we-ever-fight-back-when-will-that-line-be-drawn/963058/109 "2022-04-21T17:44:26Z")
> [@epbrown](#): > > Sounds like I’ve got more than one set of enemies. Turning friends into enemies does that. A flawed friend is better than any enemy. ---
**Author:** ![epbrown](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/e47774/32.png) [@epbrown](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/epbrown)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2022, 5:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-we-ever-fight-back-when-will-that-line-be-drawn/963058/110 "2022-04-21T17:49:42Z")
Actually, he’s worse - he can stab you in the back, while you’re more wary of your stated enemies. The “flawed friend” that wants _you_ to settle for half-measures is always better off than you, you’ll note. Can we stop now? I’ve had this argument with family members since 8th-grade Civics. Your well-meaning toxicity is never going to win me over. ---
**Author:** ![Euphonious\_Polemic](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/euphonious_polemic/32/3002_2.png) [@Euphonious\_Polemic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Euphonious_Polemic)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2022, 5:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-we-ever-fight-back-when-will-that-line-be-drawn/963058/111 "2022-04-21T17:51:59Z")
> [@Stranger\_On\_A\_Train](#): > > Unfortunately, gerrymandering is not that simple of an issue. In fact, it is difficult to dray electoral lines that someone will not claim as being gerrymandered in some fashion. Canada solved this problem in 1964. > **[Electoral Boundaries Readjustment Act](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electoral_Boundaries_Readjustment_Act)** > > The Electoral Boundaries Readjustment Act (French: Loi sur la révision des limites des circonscriptions électorales), commonly known by its acronym EBRA, is an act of the Parliament of Canada that was passed by the 26th Canadian Parliament in 1964. The Act was introduced as Bill C-72 with the long title An Act to provide for the establishment of electoral boundaries commissions to report on the readjustment of the representation of the provinces in the House of Commons and to provide for Under t... ---
**Author:** ![k9bfriender](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/k9bfriender/32/3283_2.png) [@k9bfriender](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/k9bfriender)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2022, 6:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-we-ever-fight-back-when-will-that-line-be-drawn/963058/112 "2022-04-21T18:02:11Z")
Have you ever won _anyone_ over with your malicious toxicity? Anyway, I don’t see @Pleonast as trying to win you over, that seems a fool’s errand. I see them just giving opportunities for you to provide evidence as to what a piece of shit you are, and I can see that you are not one to waste an opportunity. ---
**Author:** ![Pleonast](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pleonast/32/1183_2.png) [@Pleonast](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pleonast)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2022, 6:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-we-ever-fight-back-when-will-that-line-be-drawn/963058/113 "2022-04-21T18:06:03Z")
> [@epbrown](#): > > Actually, he’s worse - he can stab you in the back, while you’re more wary of your stated enemies. And you’re also stabbing our allies in the back for not meeting your standards. I’m saying we all need to stop that. Yes, we all wish everyone were more dedicated to our goals, but energy spent attacking allies is wasting our efforts and actively helping fascists. Instead of attacking allies, help them do better. ---
**Author:** ![Pleonast](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pleonast/32/1183_2.png) [@Pleonast](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pleonast)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2022, 6:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-we-ever-fight-back-when-will-that-line-be-drawn/963058/114 "2022-04-21T18:07:27Z")
> [@k9bfriender](#): > > Anyway, I don’t see @Pleonast as trying to win you over, that seems a fool’s errand. I am foolish. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![epbrown](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/e47774/32.png) [@epbrown](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/epbrown)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2022, 6:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-we-ever-fight-back-when-will-that-line-be-drawn/963058/115 "2022-04-21T18:16:26Z")
> [@Pleonast](#): > > Instead of attacking allies, help them do better. You don’t see that as contradictory? Helping these alleged allies do better would mean criticizing their efforts at least somewhat, and you’ve twice characterized any criticism as attacking them and aiding the enemy. ---
**Author:** ![DeadTreasSecretaries](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/deadtreassecretaries/32/4817_2.png) [@DeadTreasSecretaries](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DeadTreasSecretaries)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2022, 6:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-we-ever-fight-back-when-will-that-line-be-drawn/963058/116 "2022-04-21T18:27:13Z")
Tired: The paradox of tolerance Wired: The paradox of unity ---
**Author:** ![Pleonast](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pleonast/32/1183_2.png) [@Pleonast](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pleonast)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2022, 6:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-we-ever-fight-back-when-will-that-line-be-drawn/963058/117 "2022-04-21T18:29:01Z")
> [@epbrown](#): > > You don’t see that as contradictory? Helping these alleged allies do better would mean criticizing their efforts at least somewhat, and you’ve twice characterized any criticism as attacking them and aiding the enemy.   It’s possible to criticize without attacking, convince without criticizing, and assist without convincing. Do what you can, and stay out of the way if you can’t. No one is perfect. Being on the side of morality is always harder than being on the side of hate. They want us to get frustrated and lash out at our own diversity and then give up. And our diversity is not just race and orientation, but all kinds of motivations and approaches. ---
**Author:** ![k9bfriender](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/k9bfriender/32/3283_2.png) [@k9bfriender](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/k9bfriender)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2022, 6:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-we-ever-fight-back-when-will-that-line-be-drawn/963058/118 "2022-04-21T18:29:41Z")
> [@epbrown](#): > > you’ve twice characterized any criticism as attacking them and aiding the enemy. See, why do you do things like that? Everyone can see that this is just a straight up lie. Do you think that anyone will believe it, that they can’t read for themselves that what you have claimed is false? ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2022, 6:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-we-ever-fight-back-when-will-that-line-be-drawn/963058/119 "2022-04-21T18:34:23Z")
> [@Miller](#): > > Yeah, “prioritize voting rights,” whatever the fuck that means in practice, but **Princhester** ’s saying we should sideline social rights issues “for a decade or two.” That’s not prioritizing, that’s abandoning. I’m not Princhester. But as a guy who has said we should be prioritizing voting rights, I’ll respond to this. I do not feel that focusing on voting rights is an abandonment of other very important battles. I see it as a more effective tactic in winning those battles. If we fight all of the individual discriminatory laws that Republicans enact, we divide our efforts and resources over a multitude of battles. I think we’d be better putting our collective efforts and resources into preventing Republicans from getting electing by unfair means. Doing so would put an end to all of the bad laws that result from Republicans holding power. We can keep fighting the battles. Or we can fight the war. If we win a battle, there will just be another battle to fight. If we win the war, all the battles will end. ---
**Author:** ![k9bfriender](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/k9bfriender/32/3283_2.png) [@k9bfriender](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/k9bfriender)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2022, 6:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-we-ever-fight-back-when-will-that-line-be-drawn/963058/120 "2022-04-21T18:44:34Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > But as a guy who has said we should be prioritizing voting rights, I’ll respond to this. But what does that mean? What should legislators be doing to “prioritize voting rights?” What does it mean to focus on them? Sen Manchin has already said that there will be no voting rights legislation passed by this Senate, so what else is there to do there? OTOH, you have people who are being harmed, _right now_ by policies put into place, or lack of policies that are being actively blocked by right wing governments. What is the point of fighting for voting rights, if you abandon the people who you want to vote for you, especially when you fail to secure those voting rights that you compromised your constituents for? Voting disenfranchisement moves the needle by a couple percent at _best_. Far, far, far more people stay home on election day, especially at the midterms, than are turned away by voting restrictions. Getting those people to the polls will do _far_ more good for your party than fighting a battle on voting rights that you are _not_ going to win. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-we-ever-fight-back-when-will-that-line-be-drawn/963058.md?page=5) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-we-ever-fight-back-when-will-that-line-be-drawn/963058.md?page=7)