# Will we ever make contact with other intelligent life? **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [November 4, 2009, 2:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-we-ever-make-contact-with-other-intelligent-life/516244 "2009-11-04T02:35:10Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![CutterJohn](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/91b2a8/32.png) [@CutterJohn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CutterJohn)\ **Post date:** [November 4, 2009, 8:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-we-ever-make-contact-with-other-intelligent-life/516244/21 "2009-11-04T08:28:00Z")
> [@Wesley\_Clark](#): > > If there were more advanced civilizations on earth, they would’ve left some signs that archaeologists would’ve uncovered by now. As it stands all archaeologists uncover are small cities made of mud from 5,000 years ago. They have not found any nuclear reactors built 2 million years ago, or any signs of advanced civilization other than our own. A civilization that advanced would leave some signs behind. You are assuming that they were builders and tool users, plus, even a race of intelligent dinosaurs that were as advanced technologically as man 50,000 years ago wouldn’t leave much trace at all behind, especially if they were located in an area that has since been covered in water, or large amounts of rock, or antarctica or something. Unlikely I admit, but its possible that it occured and we simply have found no traces of them yet, or there are no traces remaining to be discovered. > [@](#): > > As far as earth, it takes at least a 2nd generation star system to have intelligent life. The first stars were just hydrogen and helium but as they burnt up they created all the elements up to Uranium which you need for life (carbon, oxygen, nitrogen, iron, etc). So you would need a solar system that was made up of debris from an older sun that created all these heavy metals. The first few billion years of the universe could not have supported life as there would not be anything above helium to use as building blocks. It takes no such thing. It takes a 2nd generation star to have life as we know it on earth. Imagine the race of beings living on the sun, mocking a scientist for proposing that life could exist on the satellites, which are so unimaginably cold gaseous matter exists! This is another aspect the drake equation misses.. The idea that there could very well be life right under your nose and you simply don’t recognize it for what it is because it is so very different, such as our sun beings, made of plasmas and magnetohydrodynamics to our carbon, water, and chemical reactions. ---
**Author:** ![Wesley\_Clark](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wesley_clark/32/20581_2.png) [@Wesley\_Clark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wesley_Clark)\ **Post date:** [November 4, 2009, 9:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-we-ever-make-contact-with-other-intelligent-life/516244/22 "2009-11-04T09:39:53Z")
> [@Stranger\_On\_A\_Train](#): > > If there is other intelligent life within communication distance, it may simply be that they have no more desire to talk to us than we would to dialogue with an ant colony. > > Stranger Too bad he covered that criticism in the book. And the criticism against futurism. Kurzweil’s predictions are based on exponential trends in raw scientific capacity. His extrapolations on what we will be able to do with that capacity may not be totally valid, but I have not seen good arguments against his trend lines for performance increases in various information technology fields. Predicting roughly how much RAM or processing power $1,000 will buy in 2020 does not seem impossible. Predicting what people will do with that RAM and processing power does though. Kurzweil’s claims that we will be able to simulate the brain with 10^16 cps may not be valid (we don’t know enough about the brain yet to know how much it takes), but his predictions about when we will be able to buy 10^16 cps for $1,000 do seem valid. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [November 4, 2009, 10:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-we-ever-make-contact-with-other-intelligent-life/516244/23 "2009-11-04T10:30:13Z")
> [@CutterJohn](#): > > You are assuming that they were builders and tool users, plus, even a race of intelligent dinosaurs that were as advanced technologically as man 50,000 years ago wouldn’t leave much trace at all behind, especially if they were located in an area that has since been covered in water, or large amounts of rock, or antarctica or something. Dinosaurs, intelligent or not weren’t around 50,000 years ago. And technological dinosaurs would be a worldwide civilization, just like us; not just stuck on an island somewhere. ---
**Author:** ![ivan\_astikov](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/58f4c7/32.png) [@ivan\_astikov](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ivan_astikov)\ **Post date:** [November 4, 2009, 10:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-we-ever-make-contact-with-other-intelligent-life/516244/24 "2009-11-04T10:50:27Z")
Try telling Steven Greer all that. Has his Disclosure Project been ripped to pieces on here yet? ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [November 4, 2009, 11:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-we-ever-make-contact-with-other-intelligent-life/516244/25 "2009-11-04T11:01:20Z")
> [@ivan\_astikov](#): > > Try telling Steven Greer all that. Has his Disclosure Project been ripped to pieces on here yet? He seems to have come up [here](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=393928&highlight=Greer) ( post 41 ) and [here](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=479458&highlight=Greer). But mostly he appears to have been below the radar; probably because most people who buy his ideas know they’d get shredded on any remotely sceptical forum. ---
**Author:** ![ivan\_astikov](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/58f4c7/32.png) [@ivan\_astikov](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ivan_astikov)\ **Post date:** [November 4, 2009, 11:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-we-ever-make-contact-with-other-intelligent-life/516244/26 "2009-11-04T11:25:10Z")
Here’s one person who doesn’t seem as confident as y’all that it has not already happened. [ex-Defence Minister, Paul Hellyer speaks out](http://www.ufodigest.com/paulhellyer.html) ---
**Author:** ![ivan\_astikov](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/58f4c7/32.png) [@ivan\_astikov](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ivan_astikov)\ **Post date:** [November 4, 2009, 11:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-we-ever-make-contact-with-other-intelligent-life/516244/27 "2009-11-04T11:26:17Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > He seems to have come up [here](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=393928&highlight=Greer) ( post 41 ) and [here](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=479458&highlight=Greer). But mostly he appears to have been below the radar; probably because most people who buy his ideas know they’d get shredded on any remotely sceptical forum. Even a broken clock is right twice a day. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [November 4, 2009, 11:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-we-ever-make-contact-with-other-intelligent-life/516244/28 "2009-11-04T11:45:49Z")
> [@ivan\_astikov](#): > > Even a broken clock is right twice a day. But a broken clock isn’t ever right when it’s supposed to measure the temperature of the Sun. Or in other words; the guy’s a flake, and there’s no reason to think he’ll ever be right. ---
**Author:** ![ivan\_astikov](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/58f4c7/32.png) [@ivan\_astikov](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ivan_astikov)\ **Post date:** [November 4, 2009, 12:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-we-ever-make-contact-with-other-intelligent-life/516244/29 "2009-11-04T12:15:46Z")
Are these ALL ‘flakes’? [Disclosure 101](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-elVqdDhox8) ---
**Author:** ![ivan\_astikov](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/58f4c7/32.png) [@ivan\_astikov](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ivan_astikov)\ **Post date:** [November 4, 2009, 2:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-we-ever-make-contact-with-other-intelligent-life/516244/30 "2009-11-04T14:28:15Z")
Would it be impossible for the skeptics on this forum to concentrate on trying to _prove_ the proposals of the less cranky proponents of this phenomenon, and **then** bring their skeptical abilities into play? ---
**Author:** ![Epimetheus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/c4cdca/32.png) [@Epimetheus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Epimetheus)\ **Post date:** [November 4, 2009, 5:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-we-ever-make-contact-with-other-intelligent-life/516244/31 "2009-11-04T17:39:12Z")
> [@ivan\_astikov](#): > > Would it be impossible for the skeptics on this forum to concentrate on trying to _prove_ the proposals of the less cranky proponents of this phenomenon, and **then** bring their skeptical abilities into play? Why should the skeptics prove it? If you support it, you prove it. Assuming you can prove anything other than a mathematical concept. ---
**Author:** ![ivan\_astikov](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/58f4c7/32.png) [@ivan\_astikov](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ivan_astikov)\ **Post date:** [November 4, 2009, 7:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-we-ever-make-contact-with-other-intelligent-life/516244/32 "2009-11-04T19:21:51Z")
> [@Epimetheus](#): > > Why should the skeptics prove it? If you support it, you prove it. Assuming you can prove anything other than a mathematical concept. A true skeptic who was interested in the furtherence of knowledge and not just intellectual point scoring, would investigate all claims to the best of their ability and then set about disproving them, not wait for them to be brought forward one by one. ---
**Author:** ![Epimetheus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/c4cdca/32.png) [@Epimetheus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Epimetheus)\ **Post date:** [November 4, 2009, 7:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-we-ever-make-contact-with-other-intelligent-life/516244/33 "2009-11-04T19:40:01Z")
You mean “how you define skeptic” which pretty much goes against what a skeptic is. > [@](#): > > In ordinary usage, skepticism or scepticism (Greek: ‘σκέπτομαι’ skeptomai, to look about, to consider; see also spelling differences) refers to: \* (a) an attitude of doubt or a disposition to incredulity either in general or toward a particular object Notice that nowhere in the definition of a skeptic does it cover such things as going around proving loonies claims. ---
**Author:** ![Wesley\_Clark](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wesley_clark/32/20581_2.png) [@Wesley\_Clark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wesley_Clark)\ **Post date:** [November 4, 2009, 9:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-we-ever-make-contact-with-other-intelligent-life/516244/34 "2009-11-04T21:26:21Z")
> [@ivan\_astikov](#): > > Are these ALL ‘flakes’? [Disclosure 101](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-elVqdDhox8) Thanks for posting that. Here is another interesting video. ![](https://img.youtube.com/vi/9ZGC9rV9-mU/maxresdefault.jpg)https://www.youtube.com/embed/9ZGC9rV9-mU?feature=oembed&wmode=opaque A surgeon removed an implant that someone who claims to have been abducted had in his body. He has done other removals on others who claim to have been abducted. One removal had an implant that was covered in a biological film and didn’t cause any immune response on the patient’s part. It also did not have any signs of how it got into the body, and appeared to be connected to nerve endings in his jaw which had been altered and were not anatomically correct. The implant was sent off to labs in UCSD, New Mexico Tech and Los Alamos to test it for chemical analysis, and it was found to be made of elements and minerals that are not found on earth in any serious amount. They thought it was a meteorite. But it appears to have been manufactured. It is an interesting video. I really don’t know what to make of it or how valid it all is. It raises questions, but I don’t know if this alone proves beyond a doubt that there are hyper advanced intelligent civilizations. It raises serious questions about it though. If there are intelligent civilizations, I do not know why they would hide it though. Or why ‘all’ of them (assuming there are dozens, hundreds, etc who have the ability to contact us instead of just 1) would all hide it. ---
**Author:** ![Wesley\_Clark](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wesley_clark/32/20581_2.png) [@Wesley\_Clark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wesley_Clark)\ **Post date:** [November 4, 2009, 9:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-we-ever-make-contact-with-other-intelligent-life/516244/35 "2009-11-04T21:34:34Z")
> [@CutterJohn](#): > > It takes no such thing. It takes a 2nd generation star to have life as we know it on earth. Imagine the race of beings living on the sun, mocking a scientist for proposing that life could exist on the satellites, which are so unimaginably cold gaseous matter exists! > > This is another aspect the drake equation misses.. The idea that there could very well be life right under your nose and you simply don’t recognize it for what it is because it is so very different, such as our sun beings, made of plasmas and magnetohydrodynamics to our carbon, water, and chemical reactions. Intelligence requires endless quadrillions of complex molecules all working together. I do not think that it would be physically possible for intelligence to exist in a climate as full of heat and radiation as the sun. Human intelligence is the consequence of billions of years of evolution resulting in advanced nervous systems made up of molecules. Our nervous systems are incredibly advanced, and nothing like them would exist on the sun. They wouldn’t even exist in a world where temperatures were 300F, let alone the 10,000F the surface of the sun. Suffice it to say, in order to have intelligence on the sun you have to do it in such a way that you do not require complex molecules since those would break apart due to radiation and heat on and in the sun. Is there evidence that intelligence can arise from nothing but plasma? Is plasma capable of the complexity and stability required to have intelligence? ---
**Author:** ![RaftPeople](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/6f9a4e/32.png) [@RaftPeople](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RaftPeople)\ **Post date:** [November 4, 2009, 10:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-we-ever-make-contact-with-other-intelligent-life/516244/36 "2009-11-04T22:21:07Z")
> [@Wesley\_Clark](#): > > Predicting roughly how much RAM or processing power $1,000 will buy in 2020 does not seem impossible. Predicting what people will do with that RAM and processing power does though. Kurzweil’s claims that we will be able to simulate the brain with 10^16 cps may not be valid (we don’t know enough about the brain yet to know how much it takes), but his predictions about when we will be able to buy 10^16 cps for $1,000 do seem valid. So, he gets the computer power part right. What does that prove again? The problem is his next step which is to use that information to predict something that is big and complex and could be close to right, or could be wildly wrong, who knows, it’s pure speculation. I think it’s an interesting thought process, but I would be skeptical of drawing too many conclusions. ---
**Author:** ![Wesley\_Clark](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wesley_clark/32/20581_2.png) [@Wesley\_Clark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wesley_Clark)\ **Post date:** [November 4, 2009, 10:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-we-ever-make-contact-with-other-intelligent-life/516244/37 "2009-11-04T22:56:45Z")
> [@RaftPeople](#): > > So, he gets the computer power part right. What does that prove again? > > The problem is his next step which is to use that information to predict something that is big and complex and could be close to right, or could be wildly wrong, who knows, it’s pure speculation. > > I think it’s an interesting thought process, but I would be skeptical of drawing too many conclusions. It proves our capacity will go up. He talks about how when he was at MIT in the 1960s, he had a program that would match students up with colleges. Computers are now billions of times more powerful than they were back then regarding the computing capacity per dollar spent. However we use a lot of our computing power to promote video game graphics. The Playstation 3 has the same processing power as the most powerful supercomputers on earth did in 1993-1994, which were used for scientific purposes at places like Los Alamos. But we use the PS3’s power mostly to process graphics. We can’t predict what will happen with the new tools, but they will exist and will open new opportunities. And our raw capacity with areas like biotechnology and IT will be billions of times better by mid century. I have no idea what we can do with that, but it will be there. Kurzweil made some predictions in the 80s for the years 1999 and 2009. Looking over them, most were fairly correct but too optimistic with the timelines. He predicted (as an example) universal wireless high speed broadband by 2009 available everywhere. That is a reality in places like South Korea, but not for most of us in the wealthy world. ---
**Author:** ![cmosdes](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a587f6/32.png) [@cmosdes](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cmosdes)\ **Post date:** [November 5, 2009, 1:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-we-ever-make-contact-with-other-intelligent-life/516244/38 "2009-11-05T01:39:24Z")
> [@tzimmerman](#): > > I firmly believe that there is a wealth of intelligent life through out the universe, simply because of the unbelievably huge number of star systems. As much as I hate to say it, though, I don’t think we’ll ever make contact. > > I’ve seen no persuasive evidence that we’ve ever been visted by aliens, and that makes me think there is a good reason that we haven’t. That, in turn, makes me believe that we never will be visited for the same reason. > > The way I see it, interstellar travel can only be possible if we find a way to approach the speed of light or preferably exceed it. That is something that either is or is not possible. Unfortunately, everything I know about modern physical theory says that it is not possible. Now it’s always possible some revolutionary discovery will prove that wrong, but in the absence of that discovery I have to defer to the science we know. > > I’m not saying that there is no chance of it, but the odds seem heavily stacked against it. > > Anyway, the reason I ask is that I genuinely want to hear the thoughts of the wise people of this board. Agree? Disagree? Someone please give this poor Star > Trek fan some hope. > > p.s. please forgive spelling errors, I’va had a few beers and that always makes me philosophic, but my spelling pays the price I asked a similar question [here](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=492793) a while ago. I personally think we never will. The universe is too large and life too fragile. One big rock and human life is gone forever. ---
**Author:** ![ivan\_astikov](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/58f4c7/32.png) [@ivan\_astikov](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ivan_astikov)\ **Post date:** [November 5, 2009, 12:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-we-ever-make-contact-with-other-intelligent-life/516244/39 "2009-11-05T12:37:56Z")
> [@Epimetheus](#): > > You mean “how you define skeptic” which pretty much goes against what a skeptic is. > > Notice that nowhere in the definition of a skeptic does it cover such things as going around proving loonies claims. I prefer this definition in the Wikipedia article. > [@](#): > > Contemporary skepticism (or scepticism) is loosely used to denote any questioning attitude, or some degree of doubt regarding claims that are elsewhere taken for granted I’m yet to be convinced that alien visitation is taken for granted. ---
**Author:** ![ianzin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/ed655f/32.png) [@ianzin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ianzin)\ **Post date:** [November 5, 2009, 12:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-we-ever-make-contact-with-other-intelligent-life/516244/40 "2009-11-05T12:47:31Z")
> [@Stranger\_On\_A\_Train](#): > > If there is other intelligent life within communication distance, it may simply be that they have no more desire to talk to us than we would to dialogue with an ant colony. Which raises another relevant question, looking at the same thing a different way: are ants aware that there is an intelligent life form called humans? It’s one thing to speculate as to whether we’ll ever make contact with extra-terrestrial intelligent life. But it’s also interesting to wonder (a) would we necessarily be able to recognise it if we did? and (b) has it already happened but we just aren’t aware, or can’t tell, or lack the technology to realise ET has been calling for some time? All pure idle speculation, AFAIK, but interesting to stuff to ponder during convivial chats. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-we-ever-make-contact-with-other-intelligent-life/516244.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-we-ever-make-contact-with-other-intelligent-life/516244.md?page=3)