# Will we ever see a middle-class backlash against college? **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [March 10, 2018, 9:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-we-ever-see-a-middle-class-backlash-against-college/810357 "2018-03-10T21:33:12Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 15\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![nachtmusick](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/ac91a4/32.png) [@nachtmusick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/nachtmusick)\ **Post date:** [March 16, 2018, 1:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-we-ever-see-a-middle-class-backlash-against-college/810357/61 "2018-03-16T13:11:57Z")
> [@Stranger\_On\_A\_Train](#): > > . We do need people who can actually do the real work of maintaining infrastructure and building things, and while some of that slack can be taken up in automation there will be a need for skilled tradespeople for the foreseeable future because doing a complex job like pipefitting or wiring a building are not skills that are readily amenible to automation the way assembly line processes are. And as **RickJay** points out, these are actually the backbone of small business, doing contract work that no one will pay a mass labor force to be available on cue to do. We’ve denegrated the value of these jobs and the people who work them which is an attitude that is already costing us in both capability and actual money, as in when you can’t get an electrician for two weeks because they’re all booked up your business gets shut down or you pay triple-time to get priority. And there are people being encouraged to go to four year college and grind away at a McJob who could be highly motivated and enthused to be carpenters or millwrights if the job were viewed as not being somehow lower in status on the cultural totem pole. > > Stranger The value of these jobs has been denigrated by the fact that immigrants are willing to do them for much less money than non-immigrants, and most often just as well. ---
**Author:** ![msmith537](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/d9b06d/32.png) [@msmith537](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/msmith537)\ **Post date:** [March 16, 2018, 6:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-we-ever-see-a-middle-class-backlash-against-college/810357/62 "2018-03-16T18:06:34Z")
> [@nachtmusick](#): > > The value of these jobs has been denigrated by the fact that immigrants are willing to do them for much less money than non-immigrants, and most often just as well. Do you have a cite for this? In my experience, immigrants typically work in construction in unskilled laborer jobs. But the electricians, carpenters, HVAC guys and other contractors are usually subject to state licensing requirements, which I think is tough to meet if you are an illegal. ---
**Author:** ![Barkis\_is\_Willin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/a183cd/32.png) [@Barkis\_is\_Willin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Barkis_is_Willin)\ **Post date:** [March 16, 2018, 6:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-we-ever-see-a-middle-class-backlash-against-college/810357/63 "2018-03-16T18:27:42Z")
The OP might be interested in this [Washington Times article](https://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2018/mar/15/colleges-universities-see-decline-public-confidenc/). College is getting a bad rap, not only for the high cost (which is undeniable) but for the perception of political allegiance, too. > [@](#): > > When asked to assess which factors are responsible for the negative view of higher education, 86 percent of college and university presidents cited the perception of liberal bias on campus. > > … and 65 percent said the perception that colleges and universities are intolerant of conservative ideas is having a major impact on higher education. And then look at the comments under the article. People are saying conservative students are second class and so on. Universities have a growing image problem. So if there will be any kind of revolt against college, it may be based on more than just high cost. ---
**Author:** ![Dangerosa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/22d042/32.png) [@Dangerosa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dangerosa)\ **Post date:** [March 16, 2018, 8:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-we-ever-see-a-middle-class-backlash-against-college/810357/64 "2018-03-16T20:00:52Z")
> [@msmith537](#): > > Do you have a cite for this? In my experience, immigrants typically work in construction in unskilled laborer jobs. But the electricians, carpenters, HVAC guys and other contractors are usually subject to state licensing requirements, which I think is tough to meet if you are an illegal. And even the unskilled labor is often authorized to work in the U.S. on any large construction project. Too much risk in meeting schedule if ICE shows up to deport half your workforce. ---
**Author:** ![asahi](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/asahi/32/8693_2.png) [@asahi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/asahi)\ **Post date:** [March 16, 2018, 8:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-we-ever-see-a-middle-class-backlash-against-college/810357/65 "2018-03-16T20:15:37Z")
College isn’t useless, but what people think they’re going to get from the experience is often radically different from what they get from it in reality. For one thing, college is as much for social networking and making the kinds of connections that will enable you to gain employment and your skill set. I really sucked in this area in undergrad, and took my lessons and got wiser when I went back to grad school. It was my connections that set me off on my post-grad school career. That’s not to suggest that the classes are useless, though. You take college classes to acquire the foundation that will, hopefully, go hand in hand with your practical skills, but that skill set won’t really be picked up until you get a job and engage in the trial-and-error of your career (and life). Now, whether college is worth $100,000 is a different matter. For some fields and some institutions, it might be; for many others, it isn’t. ---
**Author:** ![asahi](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/asahi/32/8693_2.png) [@asahi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/asahi)\ **Post date:** [March 16, 2018, 8:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-we-ever-see-a-middle-class-backlash-against-college/810357/66 "2018-03-16T20:18:16Z")
> [@Barkis\_is\_Willin](#): > > The OP might be interested in this [Washington Times article](https://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2018/mar/15/colleges-universities-see-decline-public-confidenc/). > > College is getting a bad rap, not only for the high cost (which is undeniable) but for the perception of political allegiance, too. > > And then look at the comments under the article. People are saying conservative students are second class and so on. Universities have a growing image problem. > > So if there will be any kind of revolt against college, it may be based on more than just high cost. I doubt it, and even if there’s a “revolt” I doubt anyone is going to care. The fact is your average college grad is more skilled, competent, and capable than the person with less education. Yes, I realize that’s not always the case, but averages being what they are, I think the smart move is to take someone who’s educated. ---
**Author:** ![Dangerosa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/22d042/32.png) [@Dangerosa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dangerosa)\ **Post date:** [March 16, 2018, 8:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-we-ever-see-a-middle-class-backlash-against-college/810357/67 "2018-03-16T20:59:19Z")
> [@Barkis\_is\_Willin](#): > > The OP might be interested in this [Washington Times article](https://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2018/mar/15/colleges-universities-see-decline-public-confidenc/). > > College is getting a bad rap, not only for the high cost (which is undeniable) but for the perception of political allegiance, too. > > And then look at the comments under the article. People are saying conservative students are second class and so on. Universities have a growing image problem. > > So if there will be any kind of revolt against college, it may be based on more than just high cost. There are plenty of conservative colleges. Here in Minnesota I can name four off the top of my head that my liberal, non-gender binary Unitarian Universalist SJW daughter (daughter and she/her are ok with her) would not be comfortable at. Some are even - gasp - state schools. And this isn’t North Dakota or Texas. If you send your conservative kid to Sarah Lawrence and they don’t feel welcome and don’t get comfortable, you didn’t do your research. If I send my liberal kid to BYU and she feels out of her element - that’s her issue and mine - I can’t blame BYU because its culture didn’t adapt to my kid. ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Nylock](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/77aa72/32.png) [@Mr.Nylock](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Nylock)\ **Post date:** [March 16, 2018, 10:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-we-ever-see-a-middle-class-backlash-against-college/810357/68 "2018-03-16T22:33:17Z")
> [@asahi](#): > > I doubt it, and even if there’s a “revolt” I doubt anyone is going to care. The fact is your average college grad is more skilled, competent, and capable than the person with less education. Yes, I realize that’s not always the case, but averages being what they are, I think the smart move is to take someone who’s educated. It seems more like the low information move. Smart businesses are finding more and more ways to find and vet candidates. For example github recruitment is a thing - and companies looking at your code could not care less about where, or even if, you went to college if your code looks really good. That’s what I’ve been told anyhow. ---
**Author:** ![asahi](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/asahi/32/8693_2.png) [@asahi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/asahi)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2018, 1:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-we-ever-see-a-middle-class-backlash-against-college/810357/69 "2018-03-17T01:53:57Z")
> [@Mr.Nylock](#): > > It seems more like the low information move. Smart businesses are finding more and more ways to find and vet candidates. For example github recruitment is a thing - and companies looking at your code could not care less about where, or even if, you went to college if your code looks really good. That’s what I’ve been told anyhow. I don’t necessarily think a person has to graduate from Harvard or even State U for that matter - that’s not the point. I’d also agree that people who attend college have to do something practical while they’re in school - just reading books isn’t going to help them learn anything. But having said that, people who are more interested in learning things are generally more intelligent than those who are not. And they’re more easily trained, and less likely to fuck things up – and no, I don’t have a cite, just speaking anecdotally of course. This is not to say I don’t respect tradesmen or craftsmen - I do and actually, they learn a lot of the same things that are learned in a college classroom. But if you’re asking me to choose between someone with some practical skills and a 4 year degree in software engineering, or a guy who went to some 15-week code academy…I’ll take the former. And so would most people paying the bills. ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Nylock](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/77aa72/32.png) [@Mr.Nylock](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Nylock)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2018, 2:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-we-ever-see-a-middle-class-backlash-against-college/810357/70 "2018-03-17T02:38:00Z")
> [@asahi](#): > > I > This is not to say I don’t respect tradesmen or craftsmen - I do and actually, they learn a lot of the same things that are learned in a college classroom. But if you’re asking me to choose between someone with some practical skills and a 4 year degree in software engineering, or a guy who went to some 15-week code academy…I’ll take the former. And so would most people paying the bills. You’re analogy completely misses the point. A code academy credential vs. a 4 year degree credential is just a comparison of 2 credentials. An analysis of code on github is an analysis of an actual example of what someone can do and how they do it. ---
**Author:** ![asahi](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/asahi/32/8693_2.png) [@asahi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/asahi)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2018, 3:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-we-ever-see-a-middle-class-backlash-against-college/810357/71 "2018-03-17T03:18:15Z")
> [@Mr.Nylock](#): > > You’re analogy completely misses the point. A code academy credential vs. a 4 year degree credential is just a comparison of 2 credentials. An analysis of code on github is an analysis of an actual example of what someone can do and how they do it. It didn’t miss the point at all. I’m as big a critic of “higher ed” as you’ll find - and in recent years, sure, the value of a degree has sometimes been overstated. I don’t advise shelling out six figure debts when you can attend cheaper institutions that essentially give you the same product for less money. On an individual level, I never judge a person based on whether they’ve attended college or not. But generally speaking, the person who has completed a 4-year program – pick the field – is likely to be more knowledgeable and reliable than someone who hasn’t. There are nuances, and there are exceptions. You and I both could identify individuals who never went to college and are more successful than those who did. But on average, I’ll take those who completed a program (and presumably got some experience along the way). ---
**Author:** ![Isamu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/7c8e57/32.png) [@Isamu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Isamu)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2018, 3:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-we-ever-see-a-middle-class-backlash-against-college/810357/72 "2018-03-17T03:29:47Z")
I started university in the 1980s. I got three degrees in 8 years, and half of it was free. The law changed mid-way and I had to pay about $2000 a year after that, from memory. How much does university cost in Australia now? ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2018, 4:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-we-ever-see-a-middle-class-backlash-against-college/810357/73 "2018-03-17T04:12:07Z")
> [@Dangerosa](#): > > Or a PhD and a professor. I have a few friends whose fathers were college professors - and the trust funds subsidized the low paying college professor job 🙂 College professor jobs are just like jobs in the real world - your pay depends on the field you are in. STEM professors make more than English Lit professors, I’d guess, and B-school professors make twice what Psychology professors make. Plus more from consulting and speaking. My CS and Engineering professor friends seem to be in pretty good shape also. ---
**Author:** ![Mean\_Mr.Mustard](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mean_mr.mustard/32/3865_2.png) [@Mean\_Mr.Mustard](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mean_Mr.Mustard)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2018, 12:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-we-ever-see-a-middle-class-backlash-against-college/810357/74 "2018-03-17T12:32:43Z")
> [@Cub\_Mistress](#): > > I’m a Registered Nurse. Nursing is in an odd position, we are called “professional” and yet we literally deal with poop. I try very, very hard to live up to the professional end of things, while still dealing compassionately with the actual bodily functions, including poop and whatever else comes my way. > > I got my degree from a community college and would recommend that to anyone who wishes to pursue a nursing degree. > > I feel we need more people who actually know how to _DO_ things. I would agree with this only with the caveat that you are certain you will, at some point, advance your degree beyond community college. Unless you are content dealing with poop the rest of your career. mmm ---
**Author:** ![Dangerosa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/22d042/32.png) [@Dangerosa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dangerosa)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2018, 1:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-we-ever-see-a-middle-class-backlash-against-college/810357/75 "2018-03-17T13:22:05Z")
> [@Voyager](#): > > College professor jobs are just like jobs in the real world - your pay depends on the field you are in. STEM professors make more than English Lit professors, I’d guess, and B-school professors make twice what Psychology professors make. Plus more from consulting and speaking. > My CS and Engineering professor friends seem to be in pretty good shape also. But likely could get higher salaries in the private sector. - But, we were specifically talking about the over educated liberal arts majors. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-we-ever-see-a-middle-class-backlash-against-college/810357.md?page=3)