# Will we ever shed our religiocentric views **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [July 8, 2013, 7:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-we-ever-shed-our-religiocentric-views/662963 "2013-07-08T19:16:32Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [July 8, 2013, 8:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-we-ever-shed-our-religiocentric-views/662963/21 "2013-07-08T20:09:48Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > One of the things I’ve gradually come to accept, with a lot of reluctance and even more irritation, is that people are always going to find things to fight over. People define their beliefs in part by what they don’t believe in, which means they feel the need to fight with other people with the wrong opinions. Maybe average people are becoming more pluralistic- I’d like to think so. On the other hand that may mean the remaining portion of conservative believers becomes more and more hardcore. Exactly. The ‘remaining portion of conservative believers’ feel threatened by and thus want to push back against the real or perceived (or, hell, both) lessening of their theoretical grip on Truth and the fact that the general population seems less connected to their myopic version of it. You see this happening all over the world, including here in the US. To me, it’s either the last gasp, or a scary new revival of fundamentalism for the various religions out there, especially the ones who feel their world view is threatened most (Islam, various flavors of Christianity). If I’m recalling my ancient history, this has happened before…the general population becomes less and less connected with the old religion, the fundamentalist types wake up (too late) that their nice, safe little monopoly is slipping, and there is a last gasp of religious fundamentalism before it all comes crumbling down. Perhaps THIS time it will be much less monumental, as this time a more secular view point seems to be a really viable one (i.e. we don’t necessarily NEED a new religion to come in and supplant the old one this time. Perhaps wishful thinking on my part). ---
**Author:** ![themysticalthread](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b5a626/32.png) [@themysticalthread](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/themysticalthread)\ **Post date:** [July 8, 2013, 8:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-we-ever-shed-our-religiocentric-views/662963/22 "2013-07-08T20:10:13Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > One of the things I’ve gradually come to accept, with a lot of reluctance and even more irritation, is that people are always going to find things to fight over. People define their beliefs in part by what they don’t believe in, which means they feel the need to fight with other people with the wrong opinions. Maybe average people are becoming more pluralistic- I’d like to think so. On the other hand that may mean the remaining portion of conservative believers becomes more and more hardcore. You’re absolutely right about how many people define their beliefs in part by what they don’t believe in. That inclination is not easy to overcome. ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [July 8, 2013, 8:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-we-ever-shed-our-religiocentric-views/662963/23 "2013-07-08T20:12:01Z")
> [@themysticalthread](#): > > There were several examples in the last couple of years where Europeans were pushing back on Muslim communities. One example that comes to mind is the Swiss bans on minarets. That’s probably examples of the old guard, as you put it, for both Muslims and Christians. > > Do you think that it’s maybe the lack of education or exposure that leads people to react with fundamentalism? Could education and exposure then overcome those obstacles? No, I don’t think that it’s mainly a lack of education. Yes, I think that what you are getting at is an example of the ‘old guard’ I was talking about pushing back at the perceived or real lessening of their influence and an attack on their religious world view. I think it’s education that is responsible for that lessening and the reaction of the old guard, and I think that mainly it’s a good thing (the lessening obviously, not the reaction of the old guard, which is predictable and perhaps even understandable, but not a ‘good thing’ IMHO). ---
**Author:** ![themysticalthread](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b5a626/32.png) [@themysticalthread](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/themysticalthread)\ **Post date:** [July 8, 2013, 8:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-we-ever-shed-our-religiocentric-views/662963/24 "2013-07-08T20:13:37Z")
> [@XT](#): > > Exactly. The ‘remaining portion of conservative believers’ feel threatened by and thus want to push back against the real or perceived (or, hell, both) lessening of their theoretical grip on Truth and the fact that the general population seems less connected to their myopic version of it. You see this happening all over the world, including here in the US. To me, it’s either the last gasp, or a scary new revival of fundamentalism for the various religions out there, especially the ones who feel their world view is threatened most (Islam, various flavors of Christianity). If I’m recalling my ancient history, this has happened before…the general population becomes less and less connected with the old religion, the fundamentalist types wake up (too late) that their nice, safe little monopoly is slipping, and there is a last gasp of religious fundamentalism before it all comes crumbling down. Perhaps THIS time it will be much less monumental, as this time a more secular view point seems to be a really viable one (i.e. we don’t necessarily NEED a new religion to come in and supplant the old one this time. Perhaps wishful thinking on my part). It’s definitely cyclical. It seems like as time passes, less and less people fall into the fundamentalist trap. In most of the world, we don’t stone, burn at the stake, or behead people for their religious views anymore. More and more of the globe is becoming diverse in race and religion. The problem is, everyone romanticizes their relationship with God. He belongs only to them. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [July 8, 2013, 8:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-we-ever-shed-our-religiocentric-views/662963/25 "2013-07-08T20:42:36Z")
> [@themysticalthread](#): > > There is only one Absolute. It’s a logical necessity - if you believe in a deity at all. :dubious: No it isn’t. That’s really only a relevant concept to a small subset of the various gods people have thought up throughout history. ---
**Author:** ![themysticalthread](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b5a626/32.png) [@themysticalthread](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/themysticalthread)\ **Post date:** [July 8, 2013, 9:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-we-ever-shed-our-religiocentric-views/662963/26 "2013-07-08T21:04:56Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > :dubious: No it isn’t. That’s really only a relevant concept to a small subset of the various gods people have thought up throughout history. I suppose I can insist it is, but I’m more interested in hearing about other ideas of God. Enlighten me. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [July 8, 2013, 9:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-we-ever-shed-our-religiocentric-views/662963/27 "2013-07-08T21:08:53Z")
> [@themysticalthread](#): > > I suppose I can insist it is, but I’m more interested in hearing about other ideas of God. Enlighten me. I’m interested in evidence that what you claim is true. Enlighten me. ---
**Author:** ![themysticalthread](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b5a626/32.png) [@themysticalthread](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/themysticalthread)\ **Post date:** [July 8, 2013, 9:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-we-ever-shed-our-religiocentric-views/662963/28 "2013-07-08T21:16:02Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > I’m interested in evidence that what you claim is true. Enlighten me. The necessity for an Absolute, Independent God? Sure. Would you like me to discuss it, or should I cite a Wikipedia article? 😃 [Absolute (philosophy) - Wikipedia](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Absolute_(philosophy)) ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [July 8, 2013, 9:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-we-ever-shed-our-religiocentric-views/662963/29 "2013-07-08T21:22:29Z")
> [@themysticalthread](#): > > The necessity for an Absolute, Independent God? > > Sure. > > Would you like me to discuss it, or should I cite a Wikipedia article? 😃 [Absolute (philosophy) - Wikipedia](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Absolute_(philosophy)) [Corrected link.](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Absolute_(philosophy))Not quite all-encompassing when it comes to religion. ---
**Author:** ![Algher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Algher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Algher)\ **Post date:** [July 8, 2013, 9:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-we-ever-shed-our-religiocentric-views/662963/30 "2013-07-08T21:23:40Z")
In the US, I think we will see more and more faiths working together. My church shared space with a Jewish temple when founded, and when we moved their Rabbi came to our new site dedication - along with the Catholic Priest whose Diocese purchased our old location. For a lot of Christians, the “there are many rooms in my Father’s house” line is the key one to help them accept other faiths, and more of them are embracing that. ---
**Author:** ![themysticalthread](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b5a626/32.png) [@themysticalthread](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/themysticalthread)\ **Post date:** [July 8, 2013, 9:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-we-ever-shed-our-religiocentric-views/662963/31 "2013-07-08T21:31:22Z")
> [@Algher](#): > > In the US, I think we will see more and more faiths working together. My church shared space with a Jewish temple when founded, and when we moved their Rabbi came to our new site dedication - along with the Catholic Priest whose Diocese purchased our old location. > > For a lot of Christians, the “there are many rooms in my Father’s house” line is the key one to help them accept other faiths, and more of them are embracing that. Thank you for that verse. That is a key verse. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [July 8, 2013, 10:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-we-ever-shed-our-religiocentric-views/662963/32 "2013-07-08T22:12:23Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > > [@](#): > > > > There is only one Absolute. It’s a logical necessity - if you believe in a deity at all. > > :dubious: No it isn’t. That’s really only a relevant concept to a small subset of the various gods people have thought up throughout history. > [@themysticalthread](#): > > I suppose I can insist it is, but I’m more interested in hearing about other ideas of God. Enlighten me. For one thing, simply using the term “God” shows how narrow you are being in your concept of “deity”. Most gods throughout history have had names, and most are not Christian-derived monotheistic deities. Nor is the idea that a god has to be singular, or in any sense “absolute” universal. Really, this brings up something I’ve noticed; that a lot of the so-called religious tolerance of liberal Christianity amounts to them convincing themselves that every other religion is really just theirs under a different name, so in reality they aren’t “tolerating” much at all. ---
**Author:** ![Bozuit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/edb3f5/32.png) [@Bozuit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bozuit)\ **Post date:** [July 8, 2013, 11:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-we-ever-shed-our-religiocentric-views/662963/33 "2013-07-08T23:10:55Z")
> [@themysticalthread](#): > > Do you imagine that there will come a time when people of different religious traditions can do more than just coexist, when they actually respect each other’s faith? God, I hope not. Not looking to spoil anyone’s thread here, just registering my disagreement with the (implied) premise of the thread that respecting other people’s faiths is a good thing. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [July 8, 2013, 11:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-we-ever-shed-our-religiocentric-views/662963/34 "2013-07-08T23:25:27Z")
> [@themysticalthread](#): > > Thank you for that verse. That is a key verse. Especially if you don’t take it out of context: > [@](#): > > John 14:1 “Let not your heart be troubled: you believe in God, believe also in me.” > 14:2 “In my Father’s house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you” > 14:3 “And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you to myself; that where I am, there you may be also.” > 14:4 “And where I go you know, and the way you know.” > 14:5 “Thomas said to him, Lord, we know not where you go; and how can we know the way?” > 14:6 “Jesus said to him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man comes to the Father, but by me.” This is sort of opposite of the way you’ve been reading it, wouldn’t you say? ---
**Author:** ![fumster](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/e9c0ed/32.png) [@fumster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/fumster)\ **Post date:** [July 8, 2013, 11:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-we-ever-shed-our-religiocentric-views/662963/35 "2013-07-08T23:27:23Z")
> [@themysticalthread](#): > > There were several examples in the last couple of years where Europeans were pushing back on Muslim communities. One example that comes to mind is the Swiss bans on minarets. That’s probably examples of the old guard, as you put it, for both Muslims and Christians. > > Do you think that it’s maybe the lack of education or exposure that leads people to react with fundamentalism? Could education and exposure then overcome those obstacles? I don’t think that is an example of fundamentalism, it’s a reaction to the fear of fundamentalist Muslims. Not too surprising when you have Theo van Gogh shot in the street for doing a film a Muslim did not approve of, the whole cartoon fiasco, etc. It might be bigotry and fear, but I don’t think that Christians are opposing it due to religious reasons. ---
**Author:** ![fumster](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/e9c0ed/32.png) [@fumster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/fumster)\ **Post date:** [July 8, 2013, 11:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-we-ever-shed-our-religiocentric-views/662963/36 "2013-07-08T23:30:42Z")
> [@themysticalthread](#): > > I suppose I can insist it is, but I’m more interested in hearing about other ideas of God. Enlighten me. Look at the first commandment: don’t worship any other Gods before me. It doesn’t say that there is one God, just that Jews must worship Yahweh. ---
**Author:** ![Randvek](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/a6a055/32.png) [@Randvek](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Randvek)\ **Post date:** [July 8, 2013, 11:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-we-ever-shed-our-religiocentric-views/662963/37 "2013-07-08T23:38:11Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > Most gods throughout history have had names, and most are not Christian-derived monotheistic deities. The Christian God has a name, too, so I’m not really sure what the point of this is. ---
**Author:** ![running\_coach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/running_coach/32/15836_2.png) [@running\_coach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/running_coach)\ **Post date:** [July 8, 2013, 11:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-we-ever-shed-our-religiocentric-views/662963/38 "2013-07-08T23:49:00Z")
> [@Randvek](#): > > The Christian God has a name, too, so I’m not really sure what the point of this is. I heard is name is Art. Cite > [@](#): > > “Our Father, who Art in heaven.” ---
**Author:** ![Apollyon](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/apollyon/32/4238_2.png) [@Apollyon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Apollyon)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2013, 12:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-we-ever-shed-our-religiocentric-views/662963/39 "2013-07-09T00:11:05Z")
> [@runner pat](#): > > I heard is name is Art. No, no… “Harold be thy name…” ---
**Author:** ![running\_coach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/running_coach/32/15836_2.png) [@running\_coach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/running_coach)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2013, 12:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-we-ever-shed-our-religiocentric-views/662963/40 "2013-07-09T00:19:23Z")
> [@Apollyon](#): > > No, no… “Harold be thy name…” Maybe in _your_ religion. 😃 [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-we-ever-shed-our-religiocentric-views/662963.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-we-ever-shed-our-religiocentric-views/662963.md?page=3)