# Will Wisconsin's anti-union bill pass constitutional muster? Is it a good idea? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [February 17, 2011, 6:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-wisconsins-anti-union-bill-pass-constitutional-muster-is-it-a-good-idea/571725 "2011-02-17T18:05:56Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 10
**Author:** ![Whack-a-Mole](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/whack-a-mole/32/141_2.png) [@Whack-a-Mole](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Whack-a-Mole)\ **Post date:** [February 18, 2011, 8:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-wisconsins-anti-union-bill-pass-constitutional-muster-is-it-a-good-idea/571725/181 "2011-02-18T20:11:50Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > When a biased institution posts a position paper that credits another source that is not the same as directly linking the source data. > > Putting that aside, you should understand that pensions are a big draw for many union and government jobs. Credits another source? You mean citing that they gathered data from others like the Bureau of Labor Statistics? What do you expect them to do instead? Frankly I’d rather see them use BLS numbers than say they did their own private study and got certain numbers. And yeah, government pensions are nice. Their analysis shows that when all is added up Wisconsin government employees are not unduly compensated compared to pretty much anyone else (broadly…there are probably some overpaid and some underpaid but on average compensation is about where it should be). The overall notion the right would like to put out is that the government workers are bilking the state at a time when the state can ill afford it. None of that is true. If anything the republicans are robbing the state and trying to get the state workers to pay for it. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [February 18, 2011, 8:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-wisconsins-anti-union-bill-pass-constitutional-muster-is-it-a-good-idea/571725/182 "2011-02-18T20:16:51Z")
Could we take a break for a minute? Whenever I am offered the Heritage Foundation as a font of truth and candor, I get the giggling fits, takes a minute or so to recover. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [February 18, 2011, 8:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-wisconsins-anti-union-bill-pass-constitutional-muster-is-it-a-good-idea/571725/183 "2011-02-18T20:24:51Z")
> [@Whack-a-Mole](#): > > Credits another source? You mean citing that they gathered data from others like the Bureau of Labor Statistics? What do you expect them to do instead? Frankly I’d rather see them use BLS numbers than say they did their own private study and got certain numbers. > > And yeah, government pensions are nice. Their analysis shows that when all is added up Wisconsin government employees are not unduly compensated compared to pretty much anyone else (broadly…there are probably some overpaid and some underpaid but on average compensation is about where it should be). > > The overall notion the right would like to put out is that the government workers are bilking the state at a time when the state can ill afford it. None of that is true. You’re missing the point. They aren’t publishing the sourced data, they are using it to generate numbers in a position paper. But lets set aside the numbers for a moment. The economy is tanking. The private sector is taking a beating. The tax base is diminishing and state and local governments have to cut back. Bring on the protests and letters to the editor and elected officials. The process has to happen. In the end the state employees will have to suck it up like the rest of us. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [February 18, 2011, 8:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-wisconsins-anti-union-bill-pass-constitutional-muster-is-it-a-good-idea/571725/184 "2011-02-18T20:27:05Z")
Put another way, even if the paper is accurate the numbers don’t reflect the reality of 2011. ---
**Author:** ![Algher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Algher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Algher)\ **Post date:** [February 18, 2011, 8:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-wisconsins-anti-union-bill-pass-constitutional-muster-is-it-a-good-idea/571725/185 "2011-02-18T20:29:04Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > Could we take a break for a minute? Whenever I am offered the Heritage Foundation as a font of truth and candor, I get the giggling fits, takes a minute or so to recover. I didn’t. What I said was that their analysis of numbers is about as trustworthy as EPI’s. The only reason I cited them was BECAUSE I knew that the reaction would be less than positive. ---
**Author:** ![Algher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Algher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Algher)\ **Post date:** [February 18, 2011, 8:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-wisconsins-anti-union-bill-pass-constitutional-muster-is-it-a-good-idea/571725/186 "2011-02-18T20:36:23Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > You’re missing the point. They aren’t publishing the sourced data, they are using it to generate numbers in a position paper. > > But lets set aside the numbers for a moment. The economy is tanking. The private sector is taking a beating. The tax base is diminishing and state and local governments have to cut back. Bring on the protests and letters to the editor and elected officials. The process has to happen. In the end the state employees will have to suck it up like the rest of us. And they do not tell us how they generate those numbers either. My bullshit meter goes off when someone tells me that a guaranteed pension and a health plan you don’t have to pay for isn’t worth that much. That is what EPI is trying to do - they are downplaying the value of the government pension and health benefits. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [February 18, 2011, 8:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-wisconsins-anti-union-bill-pass-constitutional-muster-is-it-a-good-idea/571725/187 "2011-02-18T20:41:17Z")
> [@Algher](#): > > I didn’t. What I said was that their analysis of numbers is about as trustworthy as EPI’s. > > The only reason I cited them was BECAUSE I knew that the reaction would be less than positive. Well, yes, of course, equivalence, right and left, balance out. Mark Sheilds says X, Glen Beck screams “Y! Y! Y!”, while daubing himself with shit and setting his hair on fire. Equivalence. ---
**Author:** ![Whack-a-Mole](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/whack-a-mole/32/141_2.png) [@Whack-a-Mole](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Whack-a-Mole)\ **Post date:** [February 18, 2011, 8:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-wisconsins-anti-union-bill-pass-constitutional-muster-is-it-a-good-idea/571725/188 "2011-02-18T20:44:41Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > But lets set aside the numbers for a moment. The economy is tanking. The private sector is taking a beating. The tax base is diminishing and state and local governments have to cut back. Bring on the protests and letters to the editor and elected officials. The process has to happen. In the end the state employees will have to suck it up like the rest of us. As has been noted, when Governor Walker took office Wisconsin was predicting a budget surplus. No one had to take a pay cut. No one had to get fired. The state’s financial obligations were covered and they had some money left over after all the bills were paid. The Governor then pushed through some tax cuts and these were not paid for. The budget surplus turned into a deficit. He is then going after state workers and trying to break their union to, ostensibly, solve that shortfall (although the real reason seems to be to break the unions who did not support his campaign). Now, you can try and argue that the tax cuts that were pushed through were necessary and the state would suffer more without them than with them and as such everyone needs to feel the pinch to support that agenda. Good luck with that. ---
**Author:** ![MilTan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/71e660/32.png) [@MilTan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MilTan)\ **Post date:** [February 18, 2011, 9:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-wisconsins-anti-union-bill-pass-constitutional-muster-is-it-a-good-idea/571725/189 "2011-02-18T21:48:53Z")
Right. This isn’t so much not letting a crisis go to waste as it is manufacturing a crisis to exploit. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [February 19, 2011, 2:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-wisconsins-anti-union-bill-pass-constitutional-muster-is-it-a-good-idea/571725/190 "2011-02-19T02:00:41Z")
> [@Whack-a-Mole](#): > > As has been noted, when Governor Walker took office Wisconsin was predicting a budget surplus. The prediction was a [2.7 billion dollar deficit](http://www.jsonline.com/news/statepolitics/102748564.html). ---
**Author:** ![Lochdale](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/edb3f5/32.png) [@Lochdale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lochdale)\ **Post date:** [February 19, 2011, 2:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-wisconsins-anti-union-bill-pass-constitutional-muster-is-it-a-good-idea/571725/191 "2011-02-19T02:20:36Z")
Regardless of how you feel on the merits of the issues, the Wisconsin Democrats hiding from a vote is a disgrace and a dangerous and stupid rebuke of the democratic party. Shame on then ( and any other party who would pull a similar stunt ). ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [February 19, 2011, 2:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-wisconsins-anti-union-bill-pass-constitutional-muster-is-it-a-good-idea/571725/192 "2011-02-19T02:34:02Z")
> [@Lochdale](#): > > Regardless of how you feel on the merits of the issues, the Wisconsin Democrats hiding from a vote is a disgrace and a dangerous and stupid \*\*rebuke \*\*of the democratic party. I do not think this word means what you think it means. Or you left out a word. ---
**Author:** ![Lochdale](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/edb3f5/32.png) [@Lochdale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lochdale)\ **Post date:** [February 19, 2011, 2:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-wisconsins-anti-union-bill-pass-constitutional-muster-is-it-a-good-idea/571725/193 "2011-02-19T02:45:36Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > I do not think this word means what you think it means. Or you left out a word. Party = process. A trifling detail ( cough). ---
**Author:** ![Whack-a-Mole](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/whack-a-mole/32/141_2.png) [@Whack-a-Mole](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Whack-a-Mole)\ **Post date:** [February 19, 2011, 3:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-wisconsins-anti-union-bill-pass-constitutional-muster-is-it-a-good-idea/571725/194 "2011-02-19T03:09:20Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > The prediction was a [2.7 billion dollar deficit](http://www.jsonline.com/news/statepolitics/102748564.html). I’m guessing we are talking apples and oranges here because: > [@](#): > > Our analysis indicates a general fund gross balance of $121.4 million and a net balance of $56.4 million. This is $54.0 million above that of the administration’s reports. The 2010-11 general fund condition statement is shown in Table 1. > > SOURCE: [http://legis.wisconsin.gov/lfb/Misc/2011\_01\_31Vos&Darling.pdf](http://legis.wisconsin.gov/lfb/Misc/2011_01_31Vos&Darling.pdf) But even aside from that the Governor pushed through tax cuts which were unfunded and cost the state money. He is then after teachers to make up the difference. Please explain the logic to me. ---
**Author:** ![Enuma\_Elish](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5e9695/32.png) [@Enuma\_Elish](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Enuma_Elish)\ **Post date:** [February 19, 2011, 4:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-wisconsins-anti-union-bill-pass-constitutional-muster-is-it-a-good-idea/571725/195 "2011-02-19T04:11:15Z")
Here’s a couple of links that provide a few more interesting items: From the Wall Street Journal [http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704900004576152172777557748.html?mod=WSJ\_Opinion\_LeadTop](http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704900004576152172777557748.html?mod=WSJ_Opinion_LeadTop) From the Chicago Tribune [http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/opinion/editorials/ct-edit-union-20110217,0,7977108.story](http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/opinion/editorials/ct-edit-union-20110217,0,7977108.story) From the Milwaukee Journal-Sentinal [http://www.jsonline.com/news/opinion/116508093.html](http://www.jsonline.com/news/opinion/116508093.html) ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [February 19, 2011, 4:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-wisconsins-anti-union-bill-pass-constitutional-muster-is-it-a-good-idea/571725/196 "2011-02-19T04:54:57Z")
[Tax cuts did not cause this years deficit.](http://www.weeklystandard.com/blogs/wi-fiscal-bureau-chief-walker-tax-cuts-did-not-cause-years-budget-shortfall_550399.html) ---
**Author:** ![Duckster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/duckster/32/1244_2.png) [@Duckster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Duckster)\ **Post date:** [February 19, 2011, 5:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-wisconsins-anti-union-bill-pass-constitutional-muster-is-it-a-good-idea/571725/197 "2011-02-19T05:04:31Z")
> [@Lochdale](#): > > Regardless of how you feel on the merits of the issues, the Wisconsin Democrats hiding from a vote is a disgrace and a dangerous and stupid rebuke of the democratic party. Shame on then ( and any other party who would pull a similar stunt ). It’s been done by both major parties across the country throughout our history. Even Abraham Lincoln did it by jumping out of a window to prevent a quorum. Civil disobedience is a respected American value if you believe others are not acting in good faith. ---
**Author:** ![DSeid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dseid/32/20194_2.png) [@DSeid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSeid)\ **Post date:** [February 19, 2011, 5:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-wisconsins-anti-union-bill-pass-constitutional-muster-is-it-a-good-idea/571725/198 "2011-02-19T05:30:00Z")
> [@Lochdale](#): > > Regardless of how you feel on the merits of the issues, the Wisconsin Democrats hiding from a vote is a disgrace and a dangerous and stupid rebuke of the democratic party. Shame on then ( and any other party who would pull a similar stunt ). Yes, a minority preventing a vote by the majority is a disgrace and dangerous and stupid. Oh, you are not talking about the GOP abuse of the filibuster in the Senate? My bad. Carry on. ---
**Author:** ![DSeid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dseid/32/20194_2.png) [@DSeid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSeid)\ **Post date:** [February 19, 2011, 5:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-wisconsins-anti-union-bill-pass-constitutional-muster-is-it-a-good-idea/571725/199 "2011-02-19T05:42:33Z")
Can we focus the discussion on what seems to be the key issue, at least according to this [CNN report](http://www.cnn.com/2011/US/02/18/wisconsin.budget/index.html?hpt=T1) > [@](#): > > “He’s going to get his money. We all know that,” Democratic state Sen. Jon Erpenbach told CNN. “This issue is all about the governor’s attempt to strip collective bargaining rights away from the unions and essentially bust them.” Is the reduction of collective bargaining rights in the future something that helps balance the budget this year? Is the requirement that unions have annual votes and receive a majority of all members, not just those who vote, needed to balance the budget this year? ---
**Author:** ![Agnostic\_Pagan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/c4cdca/32.png) [@Agnostic\_Pagan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Agnostic_Pagan)\ **Post date:** [February 19, 2011, 5:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-wisconsins-anti-union-bill-pass-constitutional-muster-is-it-a-good-idea/571725/200 "2011-02-19T05:47:06Z")
> [@Enuma\_Elish](#): > > Here’s a couple of links that provide a few more interesting items: > > From the Wall Street Journal > [http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704900004576152172777557748.html?mod=WSJ\_Opinion\_LeadTop](http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704900004576152172777557748.html?mod=WSJ_Opinion_LeadTop) > > From the Chicago Tribune > [http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/opinion/editorials/ct-edit-union-20110217,0,7977108.story](http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/opinion/editorials/ct-edit-union-20110217,0,7977108.story) > > From the Milwaukee Journal-Sentinal > [http://www.jsonline.com/news/opinion/116508093.html](http://www.jsonline.com/news/opinion/116508093.html) From the Wall Street Journal: > [@](#): > > Mr. Walker would require that public-employee unions be recertified annually by a majority vote of all their members, not merely by a majority of those that choose to cast ballots. Excellent idea - the governor must be re-elected annually by a majority vote of all adult constituents, not merely those who cast votes on election day. > [@](#): > > “Ending dues deductions breaks the political cycle in which government collects dues, gives them to the unions, who then use the dues to back their favorite candidates and also lobby for bigger government and more pay and benefits,” Mr. Siegel told me. Mr. Siegel is identified as a ‘labor historian.’ He is also a senior fellow at the Manhattan Institute - a conservative think thank. He also flunked history apparently since the Supreme Court has ruled anyone can opt out of political contributions, and the government has no obligation to collect political dues. Most dues collected by employers must be used for administrative collective bargaining purposes. I wish the same were true for all actors - I’ll pay only what it costs to produce a product. If businesses want to lobby, then those funds can only come from a voluntary surcharge on their products. > [@](#): > > But the labor organizations they protect have become much less popular, as the declining membership of many private-sector unions attests. Moreover, it’s become abundantly clear that too many government workers enjoy wages, benefits and pensions that are out of line with the rest of the economy. Unions declining membership is not due so much to less popularity, as the wholesale decimation of private unions as we switched from a manufacturing economy to a service economy. Sexual harassment, racial discrimination and other anti-civil rights tactics have been protected. Bring union literature to Wal-mart or other major retailers and see how long before you are terminated. Moreover, government workers pay packages are out of line with the rest of the working class, because that line has been pushed down to its lowest point since WWII, but their pay is still nowhere near the line of elected officials and corporate executives. From the Chicago Tribune; > [@](#): > > Walker wants government officials to have authority to reshape public-employee benefits without collective bargaining. Walker wouldn’t remove the right of unions to bargain for wages. The right to bargain for wages would be the only thing left on the table after this legislation. And what would be the purpose of that if the government could arbitrarily reduce benefits the next day to offset any ‘bargained’ increase in wages? From the Journal-Sentinel: > [@](#): > > It’s time for a little honesty about who will pay the bill > … > > Our president, in the meantime, just proposed a plan that would increase our federal debt to $26 trillion within 10 years - about $11 trillion or so more than what we owe right now. A beautiful piece of misinformation. While there are problems with Obama’s projections, (I think his inflation figures are too low, and his employment projections are very rosy) they are fairly standard, the 26 trillion is gross debt. Net debt is only projected to increase to 16.5 trillion - a total increase of 7.1 trillion over current net of 9.5 trillion. And all he really did is hold its growth constant at 66% of projected GDP. We do need serious debt reduction in this country, so they should be blasting the governor for lowering taxes, since as the author put it “because we’ve been spending money we don’t have.” Fiscal responsibility dictates that one cannot lower revenue until debt is manageable, not while it is in crisis. To manufacture a false one on top of that as Governor Walker has done is unconscionable. Tax cuts do not spur the economy. They do not create jobs. They do not put money back in our pockets since it will require the government to take even more money out of those pockets later, most likely when interest rates are much higher. Tax cuts now are nothing more than theft from our children. This is it. Unions, academia and other progressives need to show just how powerful we are in this country, and to be honest, I don’t know if it will be enough. [Most U.S. Union Members Are Working for the Government, New Data Shows](http://www.nytimes.com/2010/01/23/business/23labor.html) Private unions are gone in this country as a political force, and now conservatives are going after the last bastion. If they fall, the middle class in this country is over. There will be the rich and their very-well funded ‘elected’ officials - and the rest. The poor will always receive just enough to prevent rioting, but no more. Forget about innovation and social mobility. Forget about worker protections and a clean environment. Destroy the public unions and government will fall completely to special interests. Good bye OSHA. Good bye EPA. Good bye FTC and the FDA. Hello robber barons. Hello patronage. Hello Pinkerton. I will not welcome these overlords. This country fought back before - with no small help from a great Republican - Teddy Roosevelt. This country needs his like again. 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