# Will Wisconsin's anti-union bill pass constitutional muster? Is it a good idea? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [February 17, 2011, 6:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-wisconsins-anti-union-bill-pass-constitutional-muster-is-it-a-good-idea/571725 "2011-02-17T18:05:56Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [February 17, 2011, 8:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-wisconsins-anti-union-bill-pass-constitutional-muster-is-it-a-good-idea/571725/61 "2011-02-17T20:39:16Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > The rich are starting off with a lot more. They have 90% of the cake, they should foot 90% of the bill. How so? The “cake” is what taxes pay for, yes? The rich use LESS things like police services, don’t they? ---
**Author:** ![Whack-a-Mole](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/whack-a-mole/32/141_2.png) [@Whack-a-Mole](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Whack-a-Mole)\ **Post date:** [February 17, 2011, 8:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-wisconsins-anti-union-bill-pass-constitutional-muster-is-it-a-good-idea/571725/62 "2011-02-17T20:41:19Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > (As well as, of course, being criminally prosecutable as murder or assault…) If memory serves the companies usually got the police or national guard and such to do the killing. As such the state was enforcing the law. Not sure who you prosecute for murder. ---
**Author:** ![Lobohan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lobohan/32/79_2.png) [@Lobohan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lobohan)\ **Post date:** [February 17, 2011, 8:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-wisconsins-anti-union-bill-pass-constitutional-muster-is-it-a-good-idea/571725/63 "2011-02-17T20:43:27Z")
> [@magellan01](#): > > Why. I don’t mind paying taxes. Just what I perceive as being 1) too much and 2) too much compared to the millions and millions of citizens who don’t pay any. 1. Your rates are very low right now. 2. Are you of the impression that those millions don’t pay any taxes at all? ---
**Author:** ![villa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/bc79bd/32.png) [@villa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/villa)\ **Post date:** [February 17, 2011, 8:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-wisconsins-anti-union-bill-pass-constitutional-muster-is-it-a-good-idea/571725/64 "2011-02-17T20:44:01Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > When my brother and I fought over who would get which slice of cake, I assure you that neither he nor I would have been happy with a definition of “fair” that meant “a lot more.” Had one of you made the cake, while the other purchased the ingredients, would you think a “fair” division of that cake automatically meant you each got half, or would, alternatively, a negotiated division of the cake be more likely to result in what an external observer (lets call her “Mom”) would think to be fair? ---
**Author:** ![Whack-a-Mole](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/whack-a-mole/32/141_2.png) [@Whack-a-Mole](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Whack-a-Mole)\ **Post date:** [February 17, 2011, 8:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-wisconsins-anti-union-bill-pass-constitutional-muster-is-it-a-good-idea/571725/65 "2011-02-17T20:44:24Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > You aren’t brutalized by taxes. > [@magellan01](#): > > Yes I am. Given my [Post #47](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=13478428&postcount=47) do you at least agree you are less brutalized by taxes now than you have been in 50 years? ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [February 17, 2011, 8:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-wisconsins-anti-union-bill-pass-constitutional-muster-is-it-a-good-idea/571725/66 "2011-02-17T20:46:21Z")
> [@Lobohan](#): > > If I make $10,000 a year and need $9,000 to survive a tax bill of $1,000 hurts me greatly. > > If I make $100,000 a year and need $9,000 to survive a tax bill of $10,000 is trivial. > > Isn’t it reasonable that the burden should be somewhere between “hurts me greatly” and “trivial” for all concerned? As for the number being subjective, well, welcome to reality. Subjective choices are made all the time. Age of consent laws for instance. Yes, subjective choices are made all the time. But when we make them, w don’t typically characterize them as objectively “fair.” We admit that some choice has to be made and that the line is arbitrary. I don’t think I’ve ever heard anyone say that an age of consent of 16 is “fair for everyone,” or that fifteen-year-olds have to wait their fair turn to have sex. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [February 17, 2011, 8:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-wisconsins-anti-union-bill-pass-constitutional-muster-is-it-a-good-idea/571725/67 "2011-02-17T20:48:37Z")
> [@Whack-a-Mole](#): > > If memory serves the companies usually got the police or national guard and such to do the killing. As such the state was enforcing the law. Not sure who you prosecute for murder. The point being that the conduct you describe is contemptible, and I agree with prohibiting it. ---
**Author:** ![Lobohan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lobohan/32/79_2.png) [@Lobohan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lobohan)\ **Post date:** [February 17, 2011, 8:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-wisconsins-anti-union-bill-pass-constitutional-muster-is-it-a-good-idea/571725/68 "2011-02-17T20:49:22Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > Yes, subjective choices are made all the time. But when we make them, w don’t typically characterize them as objectively “fair.” We admit that some choice has to be made and that the line is arbitrary. I don’t think I’ve ever heard anyone say that an age of consent of 16 is “fair for everyone,” or that fifteen-year-olds have to wait their fair turn to have sex. Oh, so you aren’t against it, you’re just trying to make a uselessly-nitpicky statement about the use of the word _fair_… well then. I think attempting to find the best balance of pain for everyone is fair. I further suggest that all adults get to vote people into office to hammer out the particulars. Is that fair to you? ---
**Author:** ![Whack-a-Mole](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/whack-a-mole/32/141_2.png) [@Whack-a-Mole](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Whack-a-Mole)\ **Post date:** [February 17, 2011, 8:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-wisconsins-anti-union-bill-pass-constitutional-muster-is-it-a-good-idea/571725/69 "2011-02-17T20:49:53Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > How so? The “cake” is what taxes pay for, yes? The rich use LESS things like police services, don’t they? If you include tens of billions in corporate welfare are the rich really getting bilked here? > [@](#): > > Federal subsidies to private businesses cost taxpayers $87 billion per year. > > SOURCE: [http://www.cato.org/pubs/pas/pa-415es.html](http://www.cato.org/pubs/pas/pa-415es.html) ---
**Author:** ![Beniamino](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/bcef8e/32.png) [@Beniamino](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Beniamino)\ **Post date:** [February 17, 2011, 8:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-wisconsins-anti-union-bill-pass-constitutional-muster-is-it-a-good-idea/571725/70 "2011-02-17T20:51:16Z")
> [@villa](#): > > Of working class people, of course. > > Actually, there is **nothing** inherent in a budget problem that automatically requires you need to cut costs significantly. An alternative is to raise revenues. But that might require rich folk to do their share. Much easier to fuck the working class over. This. I live in one of the only states in the nation ¶ _ **not** _ to tax Marcellus Shale drilling, and our newly-elected Republican Governor shows no signs of changing that, despite the transit system going under, despite continued unemployment, despite loss of Federal funding, despite the looming pension crisis, etc. Rich people and corporations need to just pay their taxes and live with it. I mean, it’s not like they can go somewhere _ **else** _ to drill! Why do “cuts” only seem to cut the working class? ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [February 17, 2011, 8:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-wisconsins-anti-union-bill-pass-constitutional-muster-is-it-a-good-idea/571725/71 "2011-02-17T20:52:26Z")
> [@villa](#): > > Had one of you made the cake, while the other purchased the ingredients, would you think a “fair” division of that cake automatically meant you each got half, or would, alternatively, a negotiated division of the cake be more likely to result in what an external observer (lets call her “Mom”) would think to be fair? In the absence of any agreement to the contrary? No, half. We assume the person buying the ingredients can’t cook and the person cooking can’t buy. But if the person who bought the ingredients and the person who cooked reached an agreement prior to making the cake, then Mom needs to let that agreement stand. ---
**Author:** ![villa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/bc79bd/32.png) [@villa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/villa)\ **Post date:** [February 17, 2011, 8:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-wisconsins-anti-union-bill-pass-constitutional-muster-is-it-a-good-idea/571725/72 "2011-02-17T20:52:32Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > Yes, subjective choices are made all the time. But when we make them, w don’t typically characterize them as objectively “fair.” We admit that some choice has to be made and that the line is arbitrary. I don’t think I’ve ever heard anyone say that an age of consent of 16 is “fair for everyone,” or that fifteen-year-olds have to wait their fair turn to have sex. But we do say that while sex at 16, or driving at 16, or voting at 18 etc may not be fair for each individual, as the mature 15 and a half year old is fucked (or not, as the case may be), while the immature 16 and a half year old gets to make whoopee irresponsibly, we do say that the age of consent is fair (or voting, driving, drinking) in an overall sense, in that it reasonably approximates the age at which people become mature enough in the eyes of society to do X. If we didn’t say an arbitrary cut off was fair, it would be hard to say that comparing it to another cut off was unfair. For example, it is regularly said it is unfair that a person can be conscripted to the military, but not purchase a beer. When we make that statement, we don’t consider the individual element involved. ---
**Author:** ![villa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/bc79bd/32.png) [@villa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/villa)\ **Post date:** [February 17, 2011, 8:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-wisconsins-anti-union-bill-pass-constitutional-muster-is-it-a-good-idea/571725/73 "2011-02-17T20:54:50Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > In the absence of any agreement to the contrary? No, half. We assume the person buying the ingredients can’t cook and the person cooking can’t buy. > > But if the person who bought the ingredients and the person who cooked reached an agreement prior to making the cake, then Mom needs to let that agreement stand. Why do you assume half as being fair? I can see it as the default in situations of equal contribution - you and your brother find a box of pornography in the woods, it is fair than you have it on alternate days. But there is nothing about the situation where one cooks, the other buys the ingredients that says 50-50 is fair to me. If the ingredients cost $1, and the time spent cooking is 8 hours, I wouldn’t think it fair that the spllit, even absent any agreement, would be 50-50. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [February 17, 2011, 8:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-wisconsins-anti-union-bill-pass-constitutional-muster-is-it-a-good-idea/571725/74 "2011-02-17T20:55:04Z")
> [@Whack-a-Mole](#): > > If you include tens of billions in corporate welfare are the rich really getting bilked here? I agree that this is a problem. And the solution is: cut the corporate welfare. I haven’t read it in detail, but a quick glance at your cite mentions cuts I absolutely agree with. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [February 17, 2011, 8:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-wisconsins-anti-union-bill-pass-constitutional-muster-is-it-a-good-idea/571725/75 "2011-02-17T20:56:49Z")
> [@villa](#): > > Why do you assume half as being fair? I can see it as the default in situations of equal contribution - you and your brother find a box of pornography in the woods, it is fair than you have it on alternate days. But there is nothing about the situation where one cooks, the other buys the ingredients that says 50-50 is fair to me. If the ingredients cost $1, and the time spent cooking is 8 hours, I wouldn’t think it fair that the spllit, even absent any agreement, would be 50-50. Well, then, that’s a good reason to agree in advance on how the fruits of any particular contractual arrangement are to be distributed. ---
**Author:** ![Algher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Algher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Algher)\ **Post date:** [February 17, 2011, 9:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-wisconsins-anti-union-bill-pass-constitutional-muster-is-it-a-good-idea/571725/76 "2011-02-17T21:06:13Z")
Re Taxes: [http://www.taxfoundation.org/research/topic/67.html](http://www.taxfoundation.org/research/topic/67.html) > [@](#): > > Wisconsin’s State/Local Tax Burden Among Nation’s Highest > For the past three decades Wisconsin’s state and local tax burden has consistently ranked among the nation’s highest. Estimated at 10.2% of income, Wisconsin’s state and local tax burden percentage ranks 9th highest nationally, above the national average of 9.7%. Wisconsin taxpayers pay $4,194 per capita in state and local taxes. So, no, I don’t think that the people of Wisconsin would like to increase their taxes to pay for the benefits of public sector workers. Given their election of Walker, et al it appears that they would like to have a few things cut back instead of raising their taxes. Given how high their taxes are, I can’t blame them. Re: pay levels comparisons. Most of the analysis I have seen do not take into account the value of a full pension, that in the case of Wisconsin is not being paid for directly by the employees. Again - most of us in the private sector do not GET a defined benefit pension anymore. So how about those government jobs. PolitiFact took a look at Federal Positions: > **[In PolitiFact debut, Brown says federal jobs pay twice as much as private...](https://www.politifact.com/factchecks/2010/feb/03/scott-brown/politifact-debut-brown-says-federal-jobs-pay-twice/)** > > Only 12 days after his upset victory in Massachusetts, Republican Sen.-elect Scott Brown made his debut on the Sunday mo > [@](#): > > When we checked individual jobs using the most recent Bureau of Labor Statistics employment data (from 2008), we found many federal salaries were indeed higher, but some were lower. > > Higher: A government-employed nurse makes about $74,460 on average, while someone in the same position working for the private sector makes about $65,130. A cashier working for the government makes on average $34,470 while a cashier working in a store only makes a mean of $18,880 annually. And a public-relations manager working for the government makes about $132,410 a year compared to $101,220 in the private sector. > > Lower: Petroleum engineers working for the government earn an average of $93,140; in the private sector, they make an average of $119,140. An editor working for the government only makes $42,210, compared to an average of $57,180 in the private sector. > > It’s worth noting that the BLS’s overall average for federal jobs is $68,740 compared to the private sector average of $42,270, so it reflects the Cato Institute findings. > **[Comparing Private Sector and Government Worker Salaries - Reason Foundation](https://reason.org/policy-brief/public-sector-private-sector-salary/)** > > Public sector offers ironclad job security and greater pension benefits > [@](#): > > While the recent study from the Center for State & Local Government Excellence and the National Institute on Retirement Security comparing public sector and private sector compensation levels correctly notes that aggregate comparisons of average public and private wages and benefits can be misleading, its conclusion that state and local government employees are undercompensated, compared to private-sector employees, is suspect at best. The analysis ignores the value of virtually ironclad job security and certainty of pension benefits, features that are notably absent in the private sector. It also overlooks the greater efficiency and productivity of private sector workers, which is a result of competitive pressures not experienced in government agencies. The conclusion that public-sector workers are more highly educated than comparable private sector workers, upon which higher pay and benefit levels is justified, is called into question by the fact that not all college degrees are equal (and may vary between public and private sector employees) and the possibility that governments are hiring overqualified workers because they face looser budget constraints than private companies (i.e., governments are overpaying for their labor). ---
**Author:** ![flickster](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/7bcc69/32.png) [@flickster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/flickster)\ **Post date:** [February 17, 2011, 9:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-wisconsins-anti-union-bill-pass-constitutional-muster-is-it-a-good-idea/571725/77 "2011-02-17T21:10:58Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > The rich are starting off with a lot more. They have 90% of the cake, they should foot 90% of the bill. Sounds like you agree with my Flat Tax leanings If everyone is paying the same %, then the rich are footing 90% of the collected revenue ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [February 17, 2011, 9:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-wisconsins-anti-union-bill-pass-constitutional-muster-is-it-a-good-idea/571725/78 "2011-02-17T21:11:39Z")
Quoth **Shodan** : > [@](#): > > Of course, Wisconsin is also free to say “You want a 9% increase? You can’t have that - accept 8% and get back to work, or you will be fired and we will hire some teachers who will work for less.” Freedom works both ways, or it should. Oh, absolutely. Of course, if the group of like-minded teachers is large enough and determined enough, then the school board might have a very difficult time finding teachers who will work for less, and might find it worthwhile to pay the 9% to avoid the problem. And if the group of teachers isn’t large enough, that’s a sign that the union isn’t doing a good enough job of looking out for their interests (because if they were, the scab teachers would have wanted to join it of their own free will). ---
**Author:** ![villa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/bc79bd/32.png) [@villa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/villa)\ **Post date:** [February 17, 2011, 9:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-wisconsins-anti-union-bill-pass-constitutional-muster-is-it-a-good-idea/571725/79 "2011-02-17T21:13:08Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > Well, then, that’s a good reason to agree in advance on how the fruits of any particular contractual arrangement are to be distributed. Well obviously. I’m trying to go deeper, though. You seem to have a gut reaction that fair means equal shares, in absence of any other framework. My gut reaction is that fair means shares in related to contribution, in absence of any other framework, where we are dividing up the product of labor. Where we are dividing up a found item, or a gift, fair to me would be based on need. If your brother is twice your size, then I would not automatically default to 50-50 as being the fair distribution of the cake. And where we are talking about contributions to society, or the family here, I think we again default from 50-50 as fair. Again, if big brother is twice your size, and Mom says the drive needs shovelling, I wouldn’t think it automatically fair if big, buff brother shovels half of it and tosses the shovel at weedy, cringing, younger brother **Bricker** and tells him it is fair that he shovels the other half, despite the fact it will take him 8 times as long as result in him taking to his bed with exhaustion for the next week. ---
**Author:** ![Whack-a-Mole](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/whack-a-mole/32/141_2.png) [@Whack-a-Mole](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Whack-a-Mole)\ **Post date:** [February 17, 2011, 9:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-wisconsins-anti-union-bill-pass-constitutional-muster-is-it-a-good-idea/571725/80 "2011-02-17T21:16:29Z")
**Bricker** : For all the hand-wringing over the rich paying more it is worth noting that when _all taxes_ are taken into account the tax rate in the US is [pretty close](http://members.cox.net/kdrum/Blog_Tax_All_Income.jpg) across the board (some variation but hardly worth getting fussed about). Seems pretty close to fair yes? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-wisconsins-anti-union-bill-pass-constitutional-muster-is-it-a-good-idea/571725.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-wisconsins-anti-union-bill-pass-constitutional-muster-is-it-a-good-idea/571725.md?page=5)