# Will Wisconsin's anti-union bill pass constitutional muster? Is it a good idea? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [February 17, 2011, 6:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-wisconsins-anti-union-bill-pass-constitutional-muster-is-it-a-good-idea/571725 "2011-02-17T18:05:56Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![villa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/bc79bd/32.png) [@villa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/villa)\ **Post date:** [February 17, 2011, 9:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-wisconsins-anti-union-bill-pass-constitutional-muster-is-it-a-good-idea/571725/81 "2011-02-17T21:23:10Z")
> [@magellan01](#): > > Well, at least we know you’re way past a line where things offered should make sense. > > Rock on with your bad self. Of course, nothing could possibly be your fault, or the fault of conservatives generally. No one ever suggested that invading Iraq was going to be a catastrophic money pit. No one ever warned that blind faith in the free market would lead to massive slumps. No one ever suggested that letting Wall Street regulate itself might lead to funny debt being thrown around and the system imploding. Hell, I guess we carry part of the blame. We didn’t warn you in the only way you understand, by taking to the streets and burning shit to the ground. We were stupid enough to think the conservatives didn’t actually want everything to go to shit. I honestly thought people like you only cared about getting more for themselves. Now I realize it goes beyond that - you want more for yourself, but less for the poor. Not just in relative terms, but in absolute ones as well. It’s the only possible explanation for the seeming deliberate destruction of the economy those you support have engaged in. ---
**Author:** ![Whack-a-Mole](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/whack-a-mole/32/141_2.png) [@Whack-a-Mole](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Whack-a-Mole)\ **Post date:** [February 17, 2011, 9:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-wisconsins-anti-union-bill-pass-constitutional-muster-is-it-a-good-idea/571725/82 "2011-02-17T21:26:09Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > I agree that this is a problem. And the solution is: cut the corporate welfare. That’s great! Except who has power in the legislatures? Apparently it is not teachers because it is they (and other Wisconsin state employees) who are on the chopping block. Does the governor’s budget contemplate reducing payments to industry? I have not seen it so I do not know but I have not heard a peep about that. More broadly, there is currently a [fight in Congress](http://www.propublica.org/blog/item/despite-drive-to-cut-costs-defense-programs-deemed-unnecessary-may-prove-di) to end $450 million for an extra engine for the Joint Strike Fighter. President Bush did not want it. President Obama does not want it. The Pentagon does not want it. Know who wants it? John Boehner whose district will build the engine. So, know what gets cut instead? [Heating aid for the poor](http://www.npr.org/2011/02/16/133816016/Plan-To-Cut-Heating-Aid-To-Poor-Draws-Ire). See a skew here? ---
**Author:** ![Whack-a-Mole](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/whack-a-mole/32/141_2.png) [@Whack-a-Mole](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Whack-a-Mole)\ **Post date:** [February 17, 2011, 9:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-wisconsins-anti-union-bill-pass-constitutional-muster-is-it-a-good-idea/571725/83 "2011-02-17T21:40:36Z")
In other news on this the governor of Wisconsin has ordered the state’s Democratic senators arrested and returned to the capitol. Apparently they have all gone AWOL. [http://tpmdc.talkingpointsmemo.com/2011/02/report-wis-dem-state-senators-leave-state-to-block-budget-quorum.php?ref=fpblg](http://tpmdc.talkingpointsmemo.com/2011/02/report-wis-dem-state-senators-leave-state-to-block-budget-quorum.php?ref=fpblg) or… [http://www.jsonline.com/newswatch/116381289.html](http://www.jsonline.com/newswatch/116381289.html) (To those unaware ordering the arrest of legislators, I believe, is the usual means used to force a quorum if necessary…just does not come up very often) ---
**Author:** ![Duckster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/duckster/32/1244_2.png) [@Duckster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Duckster)\ **Post date:** [February 17, 2011, 9:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-wisconsins-anti-union-bill-pass-constitutional-muster-is-it-a-good-idea/571725/84 "2011-02-17T21:43:33Z")
> [@magellan01](#): > > This is indicative of the attitude that got us into trouble in the first place. Yes, businesses need to be responsive to shareholders, but just because a government entity does not have “shareholders” does not mean that they should be just as responsive. They are being paid by the public and have an obligation to do the best job for them for the least amount of money. And from where do you get this notion that businesses don’t need to be fair? That’s ridiculous. Surely you’re aware that businesses can and do get sued if they are not fair. No? As a consumer if I don’t like the widgets Company A manufacturers, for whatever reason, I am free to shop around. As a shareholder, if my return on investment in Company A is not to my liking, I have a choice in investing someplace else. In both cases a decent company will offer their products/services at an affordable price and a decent warranty (expressed or implied) to stay in business (so it can continue to make money). Otherwise, the “free market” will kill it. So be it. As a taxpayer and citizen, I an both a consumer and shareholder of government. Government should, and must provide those services deemed essential in a fair and equitable manner to all concerned, be it to me as a taxpayer and consumer, as well as those employed by the government to do the people’s business. If I don’t like it, my base recourse is to effect a management change. Regardless of who may be in management, the basis of without favor or bias remain paramount. Individuals who don’t are corrupt. But when management decides to change the baseline where fairness and equity are no longer available, there is a problem. I have no problem that the Wisconsin Governor and Legislature are attempting to reduce expenditures. If that means public sector employees pay an increased share of their benefits, that does make economic sense. Tough, but fair. But when said Governor and said Legislature are choosing to remove the entire structure for open and honest negotiations to achieve some sort of budget balancing, now we have a problem. With no collective bargaining process in place, public sector employees will not be beholding to the taxpayers and citizens of their state on a fair and equitable basis, but to politicians bent on personal power and aggrandizement. And all with the people’s tax dollars. That is inherently unfair. ---
**Author:** ![Algher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Algher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Algher)\ **Post date:** [February 17, 2011, 9:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-wisconsins-anti-union-bill-pass-constitutional-muster-is-it-a-good-idea/571725/85 "2011-02-17T21:51:49Z")
> [@Whack-a-Mole](#): > > In other news on this the governor of Wisconsin has ordered the state’s Democratic senators arrested and returned to the capitol. Apparently they have all gone AWOL. > > [http://tpmdc.talkingpointsmemo.com/2011/02/report-wis-dem-state-senators-leave-state-to-block-budget-quorum.php?ref=fpblg](http://tpmdc.talkingpointsmemo.com/2011/02/report-wis-dem-state-senators-leave-state-to-block-budget-quorum.php?ref=fpblg) > > or… > > [http://www.jsonline.com/newswatch/116381289.html](http://www.jsonline.com/newswatch/116381289.html) > > (To those unaware ordering the arrest of legislators, I believe, is the usual means used to force a quorum if necessary…just does not come up very often) Same thing happened in Texas a few years ago as I recall - didn’t they all go to Oklahoma or something? I think I read that they need one Dem Senator and they can pass the bill. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [February 17, 2011, 9:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-wisconsins-anti-union-bill-pass-constitutional-muster-is-it-a-good-idea/571725/86 "2011-02-17T21:52:28Z")
> [@villa](#): > > Well obviously. I’m trying to go deeper, though. > > You seem to have a gut reaction that fair means equal shares, in absence of any other framework. My gut reaction is that fair means shares in related to contribution, in absence of any other framework, where we are dividing up the product of labor. Where we are dividing up a found item, or a gift, fair to me would be based on need. If your brother is twice your size, then I would not automatically default to 50-50 as being the fair distribution of the cake. > > And where we are talking about contributions to society, or the family here, I think we again default from 50-50 as fair. Again, if big brother is twice your size, and Mom says the drive needs shovelling, I wouldn’t think it automatically fair if big, buff brother shovels half of it and tosses the shovel at weedy, cringing, younger brother **Bricker** and tells him it is fair that he shovels the other half, despite the fact it will take him 8 times as long as result in him taking to his bed with exhaustion for the next week. FEZZIK: Now we face each other as God intended. Skill against skill alone. WESLEY: I think you might have a slight advantage in hand to hand combat. FEZZIK: It’s not my fault I’m this big. I don’t even exercise. The idea that society should use “need” as the barometer to distrbute the fruits of labor is one that has a… a history to it. Each should contribute according to his ability, and take according to his need. In a family, actually, that works. But I am unwilling to say that society should operate like a family. I say that society should operate like a playing field, with rules the same for each participant. If an NFL player happens to be fast, we don’t hang weights on him to slow him down so the other players have a chance. If the driveway out of a parking lot needs to be shoveled, each resident is responsible for an equal share of the shoveling. Yes, it’s nice – noble, even – for some residents to recognize that others are unable to physically contribute, and voluntarily assume an extra burden. But that’s not a nobility society should transform into an expectation. ---
**Author:** ![Snowboarder\_Bo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/snowboarder_bo/32/229_2.png) [@Snowboarder\_Bo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snowboarder_Bo)\ **Post date:** [February 17, 2011, 9:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-wisconsins-anti-union-bill-pass-constitutional-muster-is-it-a-good-idea/571725/87 "2011-02-17T21:55:05Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > The rich use LESS things like police services, don’t they? Do you really think that’s true? ---
**Author:** ![Whack-a-Mole](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/whack-a-mole/32/141_2.png) [@Whack-a-Mole](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Whack-a-Mole)\ **Post date:** [February 17, 2011, 10:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-wisconsins-anti-union-bill-pass-constitutional-muster-is-it-a-good-idea/571725/88 "2011-02-17T22:01:55Z")
> [@Algher](#): > > So how about those government jobs. PolitiFact took a look at Federal Positions: > [PolitiFact | In PolitiFact debut, Brown says federal jobs pay twice as much as private sector jobs](http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/statements/2010/feb/03/scott-brown/politifact-debut-brown-says-federal-jobs-pay-twice/) Selective quoting. From that link: > [@](#): > > …it’s important to understand that a big reason for the disparity is the different mix of jobs in the federal work force. It has more higher-paying white-collar jobs, experts told us, while there are more lower-paying, blue-collar jobs in the private sector that bring the average down. So it is not an apples-to-apples comparison. A more thorough debunking of your data can be found here: [http://mediamatters.org/research/201012010020](http://mediamatters.org/research/201012010020) (too many pieces for me to quote and stay within Fair Use guidelines). ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [February 17, 2011, 10:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-wisconsins-anti-union-bill-pass-constitutional-muster-is-it-a-good-idea/571725/89 "2011-02-17T22:03:11Z")
> [@Whack-a-Mole](#): > > **Bricker** : > > For all the hand-wringing over the rich paying more it is worth noting that when _all taxes_ are taken into account the tax rate in the US is [pretty close](http://members.cox.net/kdrum/Blog_Tax_All_Income.jpg) across the board (some variation but hardly worth getting fussed about). > > Seems pretty close to fair yes? It does. I’d like to see specific numbers for that chart but assuming it’s right, that’s pretty close to “fair” in my book. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [February 17, 2011, 10:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-wisconsins-anti-union-bill-pass-constitutional-muster-is-it-a-good-idea/571725/90 "2011-02-17T22:06:47Z")
> [@Snowboarder\_Bo](#): > > Do you really think that’s true? Absolutely. ---
**Author:** ![villa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/bc79bd/32.png) [@villa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/villa)\ **Post date:** [February 17, 2011, 10:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-wisconsins-anti-union-bill-pass-constitutional-muster-is-it-a-good-idea/571725/91 "2011-02-17T22:10:45Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > Absolutely. I think the opposite is true. But my method of calculating probably won’t be shared by you. ---
**Author:** ![Algher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Algher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Algher)\ **Post date:** [February 17, 2011, 10:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-wisconsins-anti-union-bill-pass-constitutional-muster-is-it-a-good-idea/571725/92 "2011-02-17T22:25:53Z")
> [@Whack-a-Mole](#): > > Selective quoting. > > From that link: > > A more thorough debunking of your data can be found here: [http://mediamatters.org/research/201012010020](http://mediamatters.org/research/201012010020) (too many pieces for me to quote and stay within Fair Use guidelines). Selective quoting yourself. The REST of the links and quotes I gave also discussed the minimal turnover at the government level, the pension vs. 401k benefits, the health benefits, and that in many cases governement jobs have more education than is necessary than to do the job. One quote even listed some specific jobs - any reason you chose to ignore those? Regardless, those of us in the private sector have been dealing with layoffs, furlough days, pay cuts, and increases in the cost of our benefits plans along with a reduction in benefits. Bluntly, the private sector workers do not wish to have their taxes go towards paying the public sector MORE. This helped put Walker in office, and now the State of Wisconsin will start making changes. I live in California where similar issues exist, but we did NOT have a a complete Republican takeover - rather it is the opposite. The Democrats control this state, it will be interesting to see how they deal with things. ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [February 17, 2011, 10:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-wisconsins-anti-union-bill-pass-constitutional-muster-is-it-a-good-idea/571725/93 "2011-02-17T22:26:31Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > And if the group of teachers isn’t large enough, that’s a sign that the union isn’t doing a good enough job of looking out for their interests (because if they were, the scab teachers would have wanted to join it of their own free will). Which is one of the major reasons organized labor has declined so much in the US since the 50s - they aren’t seen as necessary, or even are seen as counter-productive. The unemployment rate is currently lower in right-to-work states, IIRC. > [@Algher](#): > > Re: pay levels comparisons. Most of the analysis I have seen do not take into account the value of a full pension, that in the case of Wisconsin is not being paid for directly by the employees. Again - most of us in the private sector do not GET a defined benefit pension anymore. This is pretty much of what I suspected when I questioned the apples-to-apples nature of the comparison. The traditional trade-off of public sector work is that you earn somewhat less now, but have great benefits when you retire. Reminiscent of some of the phrasing thrown about when GM went bankrupt. Some people said that GM workers did not make much more than the workers at Toyota. Maybe that is true, but it is more or less besides the point - GM had to pay for all the plum retirement benefits and health care for all their retired workers. That’s just as much a cost as salaries. Likewise in Wisconsin - the Wisconsin taxpayer has to fund all those non-defined-benefit retired public sector workers, and incur the future costs for all those working now who have the same deal. Even if salaries and current benefits are 5% lower. Entitlements have to be reined in in the US. There is no getting around it. This is the first of the screaming. It won’t be the last. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![gonzomax](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e8c25b/32.png) [@gonzomax](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gonzomax)\ **Post date:** [February 17, 2011, 10:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-wisconsins-anti-union-bill-pass-constitutional-muster-is-it-a-good-idea/571725/94 "2011-02-17T22:31:23Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > How so? The “cake” is what taxes pay for, yes? The rich use LESS things like police services, don’t they? Hell no. Drive an old beater through a fancy neighborhood and you will be pulled over by the police every block. They do not have long waits when they make emergency calls either. They get the best treatment from police too. ---
**Author:** ![Whack-a-Mole](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/whack-a-mole/32/141_2.png) [@Whack-a-Mole](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Whack-a-Mole)\ **Post date:** [February 17, 2011, 10:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-wisconsins-anti-union-bill-pass-constitutional-muster-is-it-a-good-idea/571725/95 "2011-02-17T22:37:56Z")
> [@Algher](#): > > Selective quoting yourself. The REST of the links and quotes I gave also discussed the minimal turnover at the government level, the pension vs. 401k benefits, the health benefits, and that in many cases governement jobs have more education than is necessary than to do the job. > > One quote even listed some specific jobs - any reason you chose to ignore those? > > Regardless, those of us in the private sector have been dealing with layoffs, furlough days, pay cuts, and increases in the cost of our benefits plans along with a reduction in benefits. Bluntly, the private sector workers do not wish to have their taxes go towards paying the public sector MORE. > > This helped put Walker in office, and now the State of Wisconsin will start making changes. I live in California where similar issues exist, but we did NOT have a a complete Republican takeover - rather it is the opposite. The Democrats control this state, it will be interesting to see how they deal with things. Point is comparing apples-to-apples is difficult here. Yes some get paid more. Some private sector people get paid more. One of these (losing track) noted that the variance in the private sector is much greater than in the government. Some in the private sector make LOTS more. So far the evidence seems to indicate the difference in pay between public and private is not all that dramatic. A little higher here, a little lower there but on balance pretty close (and some few outliers). Make no mistake, I am no fan of unions and especially despise teacher unions for a number of reasons (and have said as much in other threads on the Dope in the past). I disagree with what the governor is trying to do here. Removing the ability to collectively bargain is wrong to me on several levels. I can see not wanting to raise taxes but how about fixing graft and corruption in government first? I live in Chicago and that is rampant here. We also have insane taxes in this city. I cannot speak for Wisconsin but willing to bet it is there too (if at lesser levels than in Illinois). Just one idea (and admittedly vague…I have not thought about it much in this particular case and do not know the particulars of Wisconsin). Point is look elsewhere than screwing over the workers of the state. ---
**Author:** ![MilTan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/71e660/32.png) [@MilTan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MilTan)\ **Post date:** [February 17, 2011, 10:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-wisconsins-anti-union-bill-pass-constitutional-muster-is-it-a-good-idea/571725/96 "2011-02-17T22:53:03Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > How so? The “cake” is what taxes pay for, yes? The rich use LESS things like police services, don’t they? Only if you define “use” as “directly benefit from.” I think it’s pretty important to Bill Gates that the US has very strict IP protections, and provides enforcement opportunities through its legal system. Does Bill Gates need the police to protect his house? No. Does Bill Gates need the police (or some equivalent organization) to enforce judgments that require copyright infringers to pay damages and close up shop? Absolutely. Or, to be more general, the rich benefit _massively_ from operating in a society that allows them to make, and _keep_, large fortunes. Whether or not the police are actively involved in guarding the money bin in which they keep their lucre. ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Moto](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/9de0a6/32.png) [@Mr.Moto](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Moto)\ **Post date:** [February 17, 2011, 11:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-wisconsins-anti-union-bill-pass-constitutional-muster-is-it-a-good-idea/571725/97 "2011-02-17T23:00:57Z")
> [@MilTan](#): > > I don’t know about punishing unions specifically based on their partisan affiliation, but the bill does exempt some unions from its regulations. Specifically, police, firefighters and state troopers’ unions will still have full collective bargaining power. [Kevin Drum thinks this is mostly about destroying Democratic-leaning unions](http://motherjones.com/kevin-drum/2011/02/defunding-democratic-party). There is an important difference between police, firefighters and state troopers and the other government workers in question - namely, that they are not permitted to strike under the law. Given that they are so constrained, and that an important bargaining tool used by other unions is unavailable to them, it does not make sense to lump them in with other unionized public employees when making legislative changes of this type. ---
**Author:** ![Snowboarder\_Bo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/snowboarder_bo/32/229_2.png) [@Snowboarder\_Bo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snowboarder_Bo)\ **Post date:** [February 17, 2011, 11:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-wisconsins-anti-union-bill-pass-constitutional-muster-is-it-a-good-idea/571725/98 "2011-02-17T23:01:04Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > Absolutely. Let me get this straight: it’s your assertion that people with more assets to protect use LESS police services than impoverished people? Do you make that same assertion in regard to the amount or number of other government services utilized or needed by the wealthy in relation to the amount or number of government services utilized or needed by the poor? For instance, would you conclude that the owner of a shipping company needs the roads LESS than a person who owned only a single bicycle? ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [February 17, 2011, 11:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-wisconsins-anti-union-bill-pass-constitutional-muster-is-it-a-good-idea/571725/99 "2011-02-17T23:06:09Z")
Yes, its just like a family, the kind of family where one percent of the family owns damned near everything. ---
**Author:** ![BobLibDem](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/boblibdem/32/3149_2.png) [@BobLibDem](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BobLibDem)\ **Post date:** [February 17, 2011, 11:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-wisconsins-anti-union-bill-pass-constitutional-muster-is-it-a-good-idea/571725/100 "2011-02-17T23:21:19Z")
> [@Snowboarder\_Bo](#): > > Let me get this straight: it’s your assertion that people with more assets to protect use LESS police services than impoverished people? Do you make that same assertion in regard to the amount or number of other government services utilized or needed by the wealthy in relation to the amount or number of government services utilized or needed by the poor? > > For instance, would you conclude that the owner of a shipping company needs the roads LESS than a person who owned only a single bicycle? Yep, and those embassies and consulates around the world are used so much by the poor, and those welfare queens are the reason we spend so much on TSAs and airport facilities, those taxpayer-built stadiums are for the benefit of the lower class folks who buy season tickets, etc. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-wisconsins-anti-union-bill-pass-constitutional-muster-is-it-a-good-idea/571725.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-wisconsins-anti-union-bill-pass-constitutional-muster-is-it-a-good-idea/571725.md?page=6)