# Will Wisconsin's anti-union bill pass constitutional muster? Is it a good idea? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [February 17, 2011, 6:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-wisconsins-anti-union-bill-pass-constitutional-muster-is-it-a-good-idea/571725 "2011-02-17T18:05:56Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 6
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [February 18, 2011, 12:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-wisconsins-anti-union-bill-pass-constitutional-muster-is-it-a-good-idea/571725/101 "2011-02-18T00:00:44Z")
[http://tpmdc.talkingpointsmemo.com/2011/02/wisconsin-gov-walker-ginned-up-budget-shortfall-to-undercut-worker-rights.php?ref=fpb](http://tpmdc.talkingpointsmemo.com/2011/02/wisconsin-gov-walker-ginned-up-budget-shortfall-to-undercut-worker-rights.php?ref=fpb) From _Talking Points Memo_, center-lefty site, cooty protocols advised… TL:DR There would be no crisis to fix if it hadn’t been for tax cuts the Republicans made when they took power. ---
**Author:** ![Snowboarder\_Bo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/snowboarder_bo/32/229_2.png) [@Snowboarder\_Bo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snowboarder_Bo)\ **Post date:** [February 18, 2011, 12:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-wisconsins-anti-union-bill-pass-constitutional-muster-is-it-a-good-idea/571725/102 "2011-02-18T00:20:08Z")
From **'luci** ’s link: > [@](#): > > Furthermore, this broadside comes less than a month after the state’s fiscal bureau – the Wisconsin equivalent of the Congressional Budget Office – concluded that Wisconsin isn’t even in need of austerity measures, and could conclude the fiscal year with a surplus. In fact, they say that the current budget shortfall is a direct result of tax cut policies Walker enacted in his first days in office. If true, it certainly puts this situation in a new light. Can we corroborate the assertions made in that TPM article? (Sorry to have to ask but I’m still on show site with just my phone for internet access.) ---
**Author:** ![Sam\_Stone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Sam\_Stone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sam_Stone)\ **Post date:** [February 18, 2011, 12:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-wisconsins-anti-union-bill-pass-constitutional-muster-is-it-a-good-idea/571725/103 "2011-02-18T00:27:53Z")
Any comparison of public vs private sector jobs has to also include things like job security, vacation days, sick leave allowances, overtime rules, rules against requiring employees to work shifts or travel, etc. One of the ways the public unions have gamed the system here in Canada is that they have traded salary increases for certain benefits that translate into salary but which don’t appear in the statistics. For example, the nursing union here in Alberta has managed to set up the rules such that they can call in sick quite regularly. They also have bargained for shift differentials and changes in overtime rules. They also get more ‘personal leave’ days than they used to. So here’s what they do: They take as many personal leave and sick days as they can. If all the nurses on the unit do this, then there are always shortages, and the nurses who are off-shift get called in to work - and are paid time and a half or double time. The result is that they work the same full-time hours, but get paid a lot more money. There are nurses in this province pulling in $150K per year or more, when the nominal salary for their position is maybe $90K. Another example: Many public sector unions have negotiated terms that allow them to accrue sick days if they aren’t actually sick, and to have them paid out at retirement. Accrued sick leave in the CALPERS agreement in California can push your retirement date back by two or three years. In New York, public workers are retiring and cashing out $100,000 - $200,000 in accrued sick leave if they never used sick time. In my private sector job, sick leave works like this: If you’re sick, you can call in. If you’re sick for more than three days, you have to file for short-term leave, and it goes on your record. Call in sick too much, and it will affect your performance evaluation and hurt your career. Go for 40 years without a single sick day, and the only thing you’ll get at retirement is a, “Nice Job, Sam” along with your Swatch with the company logo displayed on it. In my job, I can be told to get on a plane to travel to a customer site for a week. I have a company credit card that I put expenses on. I’m not paid overtime, I don’t get a per-diem or anything else. In the public sector, the unions have all kinds of rules that limit this or handsomely reimburse the employee for such ‘hardship’. In my job, if there’s a crisis I can be asked to spend the next week working 12-16 hour days until it’s solved. I’m a professional on an annual salary, so there’s no overtime for this. It’s just expected of you. If I were a public sector union employee in the same role, a week of 16 hour days would put several thousand dollars in my pocket. In my job, every performance review is a potential career ender if I don’t pull my weight. I can be laid off at any time. I can and will be fired if I continually under-produce compared to my peers. In the public sector, there are teachers on the payroll who have molested children and are sitting in ‘rubber rooms’ collecting a full paycheck. How much is job security worth when making these comparisons? ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [February 18, 2011, 12:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-wisconsins-anti-union-bill-pass-constitutional-muster-is-it-a-good-idea/571725/104 "2011-02-18T00:41:19Z")
> [@Sam\_Stone](#): > > …In the public sector, there are teachers on the payroll who have molested children and are sitting in ‘rubber rooms’ collecting a full paycheck… You most likely could have made a pretty good point without this sort of hysteria. Which either is, or ought to be, beneath you. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [February 18, 2011, 12:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-wisconsins-anti-union-bill-pass-constitutional-muster-is-it-a-good-idea/571725/105 "2011-02-18T00:49:09Z")
> [@Whack-a-Mole](#): > > For the first bit here is their [policy memo](http://www.epi.org/page/-/old/policy/EPI_PolicyMemorandum_173.pdf) (PDF) where they cite their data. They claim (at the very bottom) that they got the data from the [Bureau of Labor Statistics](http://www.bls.gov/oes/oes_dl.htm). If you want to debunk their data/conclusions that is your job but barring some evidence they are pulling a fast one I accept it for now. I consider the Bureau of Labor Statistics as sufficient for this task as well (read non-partisan, just a lot of data). to start with you quoted something from a progressive think tank whose idea of neutrality is to launch stuff like the Agenda for Shared Prosperity. Your cite from them left out health and retirement benefits which tends to be more lucrative in state unions. ---
**Author:** ![Whack-a-Mole](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/whack-a-mole/32/141_2.png) [@Whack-a-Mole](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Whack-a-Mole)\ **Post date:** [February 18, 2011, 12:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-wisconsins-anti-union-bill-pass-constitutional-muster-is-it-a-good-idea/571725/106 "2011-02-18T00:50:04Z")
> [@Sam\_Stone](#): > > Any comparison of public vs private sector jobs has to also include things like job security, vacation days, sick leave allowances, overtime rules, rules against requiring employees to work shifts or travel, etc. > > One of the ways the public unions have gamed the system here in Canada is that they have traded salary increases for certain benefits that translate into salary but which don’t appear in the statistics. As I already mentioned I am not a fan of unions in part for the kind of stuff you just listed. But the corporations will game the system too if they can. I could make a lengthy list of the horrors companies were happy to inflict on their workers prior to them being able to organize. Child labor, labor safety, subsistence (or worse) pay or even pay where you managed to owe the company (company towns) and were not much better than slave labor to literally having uppity workers shot (to name a few). This was not merely expecting a lot of workers. This was a horror show. Think this is a thing of the past? Foxconn, which makes iPhones and such in China, [installed nets](http://gizmodo.com/#!5574993/foxconn-is-installing-safety-nets-on-buildings) on their buildings to catch people jumping out of windows trying to commit suicide. Yes, so many workers were killing themselves the company installed nets to stop them. That’s just one. Unions these days, IMO, largely exist for their own benefit. Crap like not being able to fire teachers and paying them to sit in a rubber room (one such teacher was found sexually propositioning a student…the admin had e-mails and texts…he has sat in a room collecting a full paycheck for years because they cannot fire him). It is absurd. But make no mistake companies can and _will_ fuck over their workers if they can. It has happened (in the US) and _still_ happens all over the world. Unions/collective bargaining is the barrier to that. Without them it becomes a race to the bottom for companies. It would not happen all at once but it’ll be a progression and in time we’re back where we started. Honestly I do not know a good answer to it. Striking a balance between worker’s rights and company necessity is hard if not impossible. One side or the other will have a bit more leverage and in time it’ll get used. Given two bad choices though I side with the unions. The horrors companies will inflict on their workers are just that…horrors. Companies on the other hand are inconvenienced. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [February 18, 2011, 12:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-wisconsins-anti-union-bill-pass-constitutional-muster-is-it-a-good-idea/571725/107 "2011-02-18T00:54:06Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > You most likely could have made a pretty good point without this sort of hysteria. Which either is, or ought to be, beneath you. He pointed out how hard it is to get fired in the public sector which is true. ---
**Author:** ![Whack-a-Mole](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/whack-a-mole/32/141_2.png) [@Whack-a-Mole](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Whack-a-Mole)\ **Post date:** [February 18, 2011, 12:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-wisconsins-anti-union-bill-pass-constitutional-muster-is-it-a-good-idea/571725/108 "2011-02-18T00:55:40Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > to start with you quoted something from a progressive think tank whose idea of neutrality is to launch stuff like the Agenda for Shared Prosperity. Your cite from them left out health and retirement benefits which tends to be more lucrative in state unions. Admittedly I have not run through their numbers but they claim (bolding mine): _[W]hen we compare apples to apples, we find that Wisconsin public employees earn 4.8% less in total compensation than comparable private sector workers. The comparisons—controlling for education, experience, hours of work, organizational size, gender, race, ethnicity, citizenship, and disability—demonstrate that full-time state and local public employees earn lower wages and receive less in total compensation ( **including all benefits** ) than comparable private sector employees._ Now you may be right but that is a helluva bald-faced lie to make if it is easily apparent they did no such thing. ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Moto](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/9de0a6/32.png) [@Mr.Moto](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Moto)\ **Post date:** [February 18, 2011, 1:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-wisconsins-anti-union-bill-pass-constitutional-muster-is-it-a-good-idea/571725/109 "2011-02-18T01:18:18Z")
> [@Whack-a-Mole](#): > > As I already mentioned I am not a fan of unions in part for the kind of stuff you just listed. > > But the corporations will game the system too if they can. > > I could make a lengthy list of the horrors companies were happy to inflict on their workers prior to them being able to organize. Child labor, labor safety, subsistence (or worse) pay or even pay where you managed to owe the company (company towns) and were not much better than slave labor to literally having uppity workers shot (to name a few). > > This was not merely expecting a lot of workers. This was a horror show. > > Think this is a thing of the past? Foxconn, which makes iPhones and such in China, [installed nets](http://gizmodo.com/#!5574993/foxconn-is-installing-safety-nets-on-buildings) on their buildings to catch people jumping out of windows trying to commit suicide. Yes, so many workers were killing themselves the company installed nets to stop them. That’s just one. > > Unions these days, IMO, largely exist for their own benefit. Crap like not being able to fire teachers and paying them to sit in a rubber room (one such teacher was found sexually propositioning a student…the admin had e-mails and texts…he has sat in a room collecting a full paycheck for years because they cannot fire him). It is absurd. > > But make no mistake companies can and _will_ fuck over their workers if they can. It has happened (in the US) and _still_ happens all over the world. > > Unions/collective bargaining is the barrier to that. Without them it becomes a race to the bottom for companies. It would not happen all at once but it’ll be a progression and in time we’re back where we started. > > Honestly I do not know a good answer to it. Striking a balance between worker’s rights and company necessity is hard if not impossible. One side or the other will have a bit more leverage and in time it’ll get used. > > Given two bad choices though I side with the unions. The horrors companies will inflict on their workers are just that…horrors. Companies on the other hand are inconvenienced. How is this germane to this discussion? Private sector unions are not affected by anything happening in Wisconsin today - only public sector unions are affected, and government employment typically carries stronger workplace protections through civil service laws. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [February 18, 2011, 1:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-wisconsins-anti-union-bill-pass-constitutional-muster-is-it-a-good-idea/571725/110 "2011-02-18T01:18:23Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > He pointed out how hard it is to get fired in the public sector which is true. If you’re going to bat the big brown innocent eyes, you have to bat them both, otherwise it looks like your winking or having a stroke. ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Moto](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/9de0a6/32.png) [@Mr.Moto](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Moto)\ **Post date:** [February 18, 2011, 1:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-wisconsins-anti-union-bill-pass-constitutional-muster-is-it-a-good-idea/571725/111 "2011-02-18T01:20:25Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > You most likely could have made a pretty good point without this sort of hysteria. Which either is, or ought to be, beneath you. [Not far off.](http://www.nytimes.com/2010/06/29/education/29rubber.html) ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [February 18, 2011, 1:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-wisconsins-anti-union-bill-pass-constitutional-muster-is-it-a-good-idea/571725/112 "2011-02-18T01:27:08Z")
The use of “child molesters” was deliberately provocative and inflammatory. You know it, I know it and **Sam** knows it. Be so kind as not to pee on my shoes and tell me its raining. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [February 18, 2011, 1:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-wisconsins-anti-union-bill-pass-constitutional-muster-is-it-a-good-idea/571725/113 "2011-02-18T01:29:43Z")
> [@Whack-a-Mole](#): > > Admittedly I have not run through their numbers but they claim (bolding mine): > > _[W]hen we compare apples to apples, we find that Wisconsin public employees earn 4.8% less in total compensation than comparable private sector workers. The comparisons—controlling for education, experience, hours of work, organizational size, gender, race, ethnicity, citizenship, and disability—demonstrate that full-time state and local public employees earn lower wages and receive less in total compensation ( **including all benefits** ) than comparable private sector employees._ > > Now you may be right but that is a helluva bald-faced lie to make if it is easily apparent they did no such thing. There is nothing in the chart regarding retirement benefits. ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Moto](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/9de0a6/32.png) [@Mr.Moto](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Moto)\ **Post date:** [February 18, 2011, 1:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-wisconsins-anti-union-bill-pass-constitutional-muster-is-it-a-good-idea/571725/114 "2011-02-18T01:44:30Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > The use of “child molesters” was deliberately provocative and inflammatory. You know it, I know it and **Sam** knows it. Be so kind as not to pee on my shoes and tell me its raining. [Fondling a special needs student. Impregnating a teenaged student. Sexually assaulting a child.](http://gothamist.com/2010/02/14/doe_rubber_rooms_worst_ex-teachers.php) This is just New York City, which recently ended this disgusting practice. Rubber rooms still hang on in some school districts - I believe the LAUSD still has them. It’s hard to be more provocative and inflammatory than the facts in this particular instance. ---
**Author:** ![Whack-a-Mole](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/whack-a-mole/32/141_2.png) [@Whack-a-Mole](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Whack-a-Mole)\ **Post date:** [February 18, 2011, 1:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-wisconsins-anti-union-bill-pass-constitutional-muster-is-it-a-good-idea/571725/115 "2011-02-18T01:44:58Z")
> [@Mr.Moto](#): > > How is this germane to this discussion? Private sector unions are not affected by anything happening in Wisconsin today - only public sector unions are affected, and government employment typically carries stronger workplace protections through civil service laws. This very thread is about a case where a governor is trying to change the law to reduce the power/take protections away from government workers. Can you promise me it will stop there and no other laws protecting workers will be diminished or removed? Ever? The battle between labor and employers is a long one and employers will hammer and whittle away at it for years or decades. Indeed ceaselessly. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [February 18, 2011, 1:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-wisconsins-anti-union-bill-pass-constitutional-muster-is-it-a-good-idea/571725/116 "2011-02-18T01:45:42Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > The use of “child molesters” was deliberately provocative and inflammatory. You know it, I know it and **Sam** knows it. Be so kind as not to pee on my shoes and tell me its raining. Reality sucks. Sam referred to a well publicized occurrence. It was a direct result of union protectionism. It’s nice that they agreed to eliminate it but it’s common for unions to protect incompetence to the detriment of all concerned. All of this is academic to the reality that states are financially bankrupt. You can’t spend what you don’t have. ---
**Author:** ![Sam\_Stone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Sam\_Stone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sam_Stone)\ **Post date:** [February 18, 2011, 1:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-wisconsins-anti-union-bill-pass-constitutional-muster-is-it-a-good-idea/571725/117 "2011-02-18T01:49:59Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > The use of “child molesters” was deliberately provocative and inflammatory. You know it, I know it and **Sam** knows it. Be so kind as not to pee on my shoes and tell me its raining. Or, you know, it could be true. [Child Molesting Teacher Can’t be Fired Thanks to Union](http://emergingcorruption.com/2010/12/child-molesting-teacher-cant-be-fired-thanks-to-union/) [Why Unions are Dangerous in Education](http://www.publiusforum.com/2010/02/08/why-unions-are-dangerous-in-education/): > [@](#): > > One would think that a teacher that had 30 some years ago allegedly impregnated a 16-year-old student, a few years later sexually accosted two 12-year-old students, and was accused of molesting yet another student four years after that, would be out on his ear never to teach or be allowed around children again. > > But the New York teachers union would beg to differ. > > In fact, the union has differed so much that troubled teacher Francisco Olivares has been continually paid his $94,154 a year salary even though he’s been kept from the classroom for the last seven years. > > So, who cares what the union says about this guy? Unfortunately, the union’s resistance to getting rid of him is enshrined in state law. The school can’t get rid of this dead weight either. > > As a result, because the school can’t fire him and the union won’t let them, Olivares sits day in and day out in what is called a “rubber room” getting paid his full salary. That is getting paid his fall salary courtesy of the taxpayers of New York. [Child Molesting Teacher Can’t Be Fired Thanks to Union](http://canadafreepress.com/index.php/articles-health/31554): > [@](#): > > In 1997 a Brooklyn teacher was accused of attempting to molest a sixth-grade girl at PS 138. As it happened, he admitted the behavior, but no criminal charges were filed when all was said and done. Still one would think the fact that he inappropriately fondled a teen should be enough to get him fired from his teaching position. But then again, in New York you can’t even fire a child molester if he happens to be a teachers union member. > > Thanks to the fact that it is nearly impossible to fire a teacher, this lowlife has been drawing his almost $100,000-a-year salary to do nothing. You heard that right, to do nothing. > > You see, even as the union agrees that this pedophile isn’t fit for a classroom, the union still won’t agree to his being fired. So, teacher Roland Pierre sits in a “rubber room” five days a week and does nothing and he’s paid $97,101yearly to do so. And that doesn’t include benefits. He’s been getting that salary for 13 years, doing absolutely nothing because he’s not safe to have around children. So what’s the rule here? We’re not allowed to point out _actual child abuse_ because doing so is ‘inflammatory’? Is there some special ‘truthiness’ we have to follow to avoid harming the delicate sensibilities of the people who support this system? ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [February 18, 2011, 1:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-wisconsins-anti-union-bill-pass-constitutional-muster-is-it-a-good-idea/571725/118 "2011-02-18T01:57:01Z")
> [@](#): > > …You can’t spend what you don’t have. Well, bless your heart, of course you can! Did you see that war we had a little while ago? Did anyone point out to you that we put all of it on the credit card? ---
**Author:** ![Duckster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/duckster/32/1244_2.png) [@Duckster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Duckster)\ **Post date:** [February 18, 2011, 2:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-wisconsins-anti-union-bill-pass-constitutional-muster-is-it-a-good-idea/571725/119 "2011-02-18T02:05:08Z")
> [@Whack-a-Mole](#): > > In other news on this the governor of Wisconsin has ordered the state’s Democratic senators arrested and returned to the capitol. Apparently they have all gone AWOL. Wisconsin State Patrol officers are saying if they find any of the missing Senators they will not arrest them and bring them back to the Capitol. Wisconsin Capitol Police are not evicting protesters from the Capitol Building, nor are they interferring with protesters who have blocked access to the Senate chamber to prevent the Republican senators from convening to determine if a quorum is present. ---
**Author:** ![Whack-a-Mole](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/whack-a-mole/32/141_2.png) [@Whack-a-Mole](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Whack-a-Mole)\ **Post date:** [February 18, 2011, 2:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-wisconsins-anti-union-bill-pass-constitutional-muster-is-it-a-good-idea/571725/120 "2011-02-18T02:05:46Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > All of this is academic to the reality that states are financially bankrupt. You can’t spend what you don’t have. True enough as far as it goes. If they pay their teachers $7.25/hour (Wisconsin minimum wage) all will be peachy right? Certainly it will help the budget. Once the governor removes their rights the teachers can accept that or be unemployed. Probably lots of young people willing to do the job for that. At least I’d rather teach for $7.25/hour than flip burgers or have no job at all. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-wisconsins-anti-union-bill-pass-constitutional-muster-is-it-a-good-idea/571725.md?page=5) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-wisconsins-anti-union-bill-pass-constitutional-muster-is-it-a-good-idea/571725.md?page=7)