# Will Wisconsin's anti-union bill pass constitutional muster? Is it a good idea? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [February 17, 2011, 6:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-wisconsins-anti-union-bill-pass-constitutional-muster-is-it-a-good-idea/571725 "2011-02-17T18:05:56Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 8
**Author:** ![Whack-a-Mole](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/whack-a-mole/32/141_2.png) [@Whack-a-Mole](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Whack-a-Mole)\ **Post date:** [February 18, 2011, 4:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-wisconsins-anti-union-bill-pass-constitutional-muster-is-it-a-good-idea/571725/141 "2011-02-18T04:39:43Z")
> [@flickster](#): > > But who’s deciding on what the needs are Duh! The market! If you cannot feed yourself you deserve to starve. If you cannot pay for a roof you deserve to freeze. Sure as shit it is no one else’s problem. If you suck at life then die…at least you’ll be doing the gene pool a favor if you can’t reproduce. ---
**Author:** ![Drum\_God](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/drum_god/32/44_2.png) [@Drum\_God](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Drum_God)\ **Post date:** [February 18, 2011, 4:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-wisconsins-anti-union-bill-pass-constitutional-muster-is-it-a-good-idea/571725/142 "2011-02-18T04:47:41Z")
> [@magellan01](#): > > The ability to retire with a half pension after just 20 years of service, or 100% after 30 or so. Not to mention the opportunity for those about to retire to rack up overtime in their last year or so and having their pension be based on that inflated figure. Tenure for teachers after just a couple of years. Hell, tenure in general. I belong to the teachers’ union (though in a right-to-work state). I don’t have any of that. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [February 18, 2011, 4:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-wisconsins-anti-union-bill-pass-constitutional-muster-is-it-a-good-idea/571725/143 "2011-02-18T04:57:36Z")
Well, sure, you’d say that, wouldn’t you, being in a union, and all. If only you had the patriotism and public-spirit of the Koch Brothers, AIG, and Halliburton. But, _nooooooo!_ ---
**Author:** ![Duckster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/duckster/32/1244_2.png) [@Duckster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Duckster)\ **Post date:** [February 18, 2011, 5:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-wisconsins-anti-union-bill-pass-constitutional-muster-is-it-a-good-idea/571725/144 "2011-02-18T05:16:40Z")
> [@Whack-a-Mole](#): > > Dunno about in Montana but in Illinois there are Exempt and Non-Exempt workers (not sure if this is a federal or state thing). **[Fair Labor Standards Act](http://www.dol.gov/whd/flsa/) - federal.** ---
**Author:** ![Whack-a-Mole](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/whack-a-mole/32/141_2.png) [@Whack-a-Mole](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Whack-a-Mole)\ **Post date:** [February 18, 2011, 5:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-wisconsins-anti-union-bill-pass-constitutional-muster-is-it-a-good-idea/571725/145 "2011-02-18T05:28:24Z")
> [@Drum\_God](#): > > I belong to the teachers’ union (though in a right-to-work state). I don’t have any of that. I actually meant to comment on this earlier and this reminds me. Someone can tell me if I am wrong but my understanding is the awesome deals of sweet pensions and tenure for life are pretty much things of the past. Your mom or dad had them but you and I have nothing like that. Can any young poster here starting their teaching career claim that in 5 years they will get tenure and no one can fire them along with sweet pension plans? Anyone? Bueller? ---
**Author:** ![Whack-a-Mole](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/whack-a-mole/32/141_2.png) [@Whack-a-Mole](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Whack-a-Mole)\ **Post date:** [February 18, 2011, 5:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-wisconsins-anti-union-bill-pass-constitutional-muster-is-it-a-good-idea/571725/146 "2011-02-18T05:29:53Z")
> [@Duckster](#): > > **[Fair Labor Standards Act](http://www.dol.gov/whd/flsa/) - federal.** Thanks. I once knew this stuff when I worked in HR but that was many moons ago (don’t ask how many…I don’t want to lie…long enough I have “senior moments” trying to remember). ---
**Author:** ![Agnostic\_Pagan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/c4cdca/32.png) [@Agnostic\_Pagan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Agnostic_Pagan)\ **Post date:** [February 18, 2011, 5:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-wisconsins-anti-union-bill-pass-constitutional-muster-is-it-a-good-idea/571725/147 "2011-02-18T05:53:40Z")
> [@flickster](#): > > Are you really trying to claim the unions don’t actively try to strong arm political influence??? > > Please tell me I read that wrong before my eyes go on permanent roll I made no such claim - every group in our society has a political agenda. Including public service workers. An ideal civil service would be completely non-partisan, and so will never exist in human society. But public unions are an improvement over the patronage systems of the past - does it create a political force? Certainly. I see no reason why public service workers should be prevented from exercising their political rights. The level of influence, and the means by which they may pursue it, are less than other sectors and their strong arm tactics can be an effective counterbalance to the strong arm of chambers of commerce and other private interest groups, as we are seeing in Wisconsin right now. Take away the public unions and government will be that much closer to only serving private interests, and public interests be damned. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [February 18, 2011, 6:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-wisconsins-anti-union-bill-pass-constitutional-muster-is-it-a-good-idea/571725/148 "2011-02-18T06:15:51Z")
> [@Whack-a-Mole](#): > > I actually meant to comment on this earlier and this reminds me. > > Someone can tell me if I am wrong but my understanding is the awesome deals of sweet pensions and tenure for life are pretty much things of the past. I can’t quantify this but I know of quite a few Federal employees who specifically sought out the pension package which, according to them, has changed for newer workers. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [February 18, 2011, 6:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-wisconsins-anti-union-bill-pass-constitutional-muster-is-it-a-good-idea/571725/149 "2011-02-18T06:18:27Z")
> [@Whack-a-Mole](#): > > Duh! > > The market! > > If you cannot feed yourself you deserve to starve. > > If you cannot pay for a roof you deserve to freeze. > > Sure as shit it is no one else’s problem. If you suck at life then die…at least you’ll be doing the gene pool a favor if you can’t reproduce. Oh paaaaleeeeaaase. In my parents day people stood in soup lines to survive. Today we subsidize damn near everything including free cell phones. The safety net is pretty damn large. ---
**Author:** ![Whack-a-Mole](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/whack-a-mole/32/141_2.png) [@Whack-a-Mole](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Whack-a-Mole)\ **Post date:** [February 18, 2011, 6:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-wisconsins-anti-union-bill-pass-constitutional-muster-is-it-a-good-idea/571725/150 "2011-02-18T06:27:12Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > Oh paaaaleeeeaaase. In my parents day people stood in soup lines to survive. Today we subsidize damn near everything including free cell phones. The safety net is pretty damn large. I think you have an overly generous assessment of what it is to be destitute in this country but even if you are correct that we’d give cell phones to homeless people the point is the conservatives want to see you pay for your crime of being poor. At the least you just need to suck-up being poor. Do not expect help. If you get it then it is largess and be grateful. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [February 18, 2011, 6:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-wisconsins-anti-union-bill-pass-constitutional-muster-is-it-a-good-idea/571725/151 "2011-02-18T06:30:49Z")
Quoth **Sam Stone** : > [@](#): > > Now, I recognize that this kind of system can’t work in every job. I think unions serve a valuable role for employees that are basically automatons - assembly line workers, farm laborers, whatever. If your job duties are exactly the same as the guy next to you and there’s no room for innovation, creative thinking, or going the extra mile to get the job done, then it makes sense to have a seniority pay system and it can make sense to have union protection, because if you can’t bring extra value to the employer, then you have no way to ensure job security other than through collective bargaining. So long as its voluntary all around, I’ve got no problem with that. > > But unionization for knowledge workers and professionals is absolutely ridiculous. As I said in another thread, there is clear evidence that in professional jobs the difference in productivity between the best workers and the worst is huge. If I’m understanding what you’re saying, then unions are a good idea for expendable/interchangeable workers, but not for workers who are not expendable. I’d almost agree with that, but with one quibble: It’s not whether the workers actually _are_ expendable that’s important, but whether management _thinks_ they’re expendable. Take teachers, for example: When I mentioned upthread that teachers might strike over a policy of being used as amateur bomb squads, I wasn’t being hyperbolic. Before my mom retired, the teachers really were literally used that way. If there was a bomb threat at a school, district policy was to get all the kids outside, then to send all the teachers back inside to look for the bomb. Now, there is a world of difference between a good teacher and a bad one, but no matter what the quality of a teacher, it’s idiotic to have them looking for bombs. When you’ve got management treating employees like that, what choice do they have but to unionize? ---
**Author:** ![sitchensis](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sitchensis/32/4892_2.png) [@sitchensis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sitchensis)\ **Post date:** [February 18, 2011, 7:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-wisconsins-anti-union-bill-pass-constitutional-muster-is-it-a-good-idea/571725/152 "2011-02-18T07:41:37Z")
I have worked for both the State of Alaska and the State of Washington over the last ten years and have never been eligible for a defined benefit retirement. Unions still have to negotiate with the State, the outcomes of the negotiation may be seen slightly later in the public sector than the private sector but the two sectors virtually mirror each other. IMHO, public sector jobs get a few more benefits at the cost of salary; private sector jobs get a boost in salary at the cost of benefits. Private sector jobs at the high end get more than anybody. If you want to cut the budget, find public services that you don’t want to fund, and cut them. The majority of public employees are civilian employees and not political appointments. They do their jobs day in and day out regardless of the political wind that is blowing. If you feel that the best policy would be to fire half of them every time a new party is in office, go ahead, you will be left with nothing. If a job with the State is so great, nothing is stopping you from getting one. ---
**Author:** ![Don\_t\_Call\_Me\_Shirley](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/f4b2a3/32.png) [@Don\_t\_Call\_Me\_Shirley](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Don_t_Call_Me_Shirley)\ **Post date:** [February 18, 2011, 2:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-wisconsins-anti-union-bill-pass-constitutional-muster-is-it-a-good-idea/571725/153 "2011-02-18T14:34:33Z")
> [@WaM](#): > > I could make a lengthy list of the horrors companies were happy to inflict on their workers prior to them being able to organize. Child labor, labor safety, subsistence (or worse) pay or even pay where you managed to owe the company (company towns) and were not much better than slave labor to literally having uppity workers shot (to name a few). I think one of the problems is that unions, when they first started, were fighting battles on child labor, workplace safety, 40 hour weeks, things like that. All of these things are now covered by federal laws, OSHA, etc… leaving the unions scrambling to find new issues to keep themselves relevant. ---
**Author:** ![Beniamino](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/bcef8e/32.png) [@Beniamino](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Beniamino)\ **Post date:** [February 18, 2011, 2:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-wisconsins-anti-union-bill-pass-constitutional-muster-is-it-a-good-idea/571725/154 "2011-02-18T14:40:41Z")
> [@Don\_t\_Call\_Me\_Shirley](#): > > I think one of the problems is that unions, when they first started, were fighting battles on child labor, workplace safety, 40 hour weeks, things like that. All of these things are now covered by federal laws, OSHA, etc… leaving the unions scrambling to find new issues to keep themselves relevant. Workplace safety is supremely relevant – notice all the mining disasters lately? Other battles include fighting trade policies that send jobs overseas, dwindling health benefits, and the most important thing – negotiating “just cause” provisions in collective bargaining agreements. ---
**Author:** ![furt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/439d5e/32.png) [@furt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/furt)\ **Post date:** [February 18, 2011, 3:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-wisconsins-anti-union-bill-pass-constitutional-muster-is-it-a-good-idea/571725/155 "2011-02-18T15:03:40Z")
> [@Whack-a-Mole](#): > > If you cannot feed yourself you deserve to starve. “Deserve” is the wrong word, as it implies a moral judgement, but yeah, that’s pretty much the way biology works. I’m all for society caring for the old and weak and disabled, but if you’re an able-bodied adult, you can feed your damn self. And yes, I have had to walk to the food pantry, and I have slept outside at night – in winter, in Chicago – because I had nowhere to go. None of which really has anything to do with middle-class professionals freaking out because their salary and benefits might get trimmed. ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [February 18, 2011, 3:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-wisconsins-anti-union-bill-pass-constitutional-muster-is-it-a-good-idea/571725/156 "2011-02-18T15:34:00Z")
> [@Whack-a-Mole](#): > > … conservatives want to see you pay for your crime of being poor. > > At the least you just need to suck-up being poor. Do not expect help. If you get it then it is largess and be grateful. So your example of how conservatives want to punish poor people is that teachers unions get no more than a 8% raise. I would think that, if we are such evil geniuses, we could do better than that. Don’t you think that this might be why unions lose credibility? They drag this kind of rhetoric out every time they go on strike. And then the rest of the world, who manage somehow to survive with a smaller increase than 8%, has little patience to spare for the whining. Especially since the rest of Wisconsin, who probably did not get a 9% bump, has to pay the taxes so the public unions can. This is the real world. At some point, the unions need to be told this. Suck it up and save the bullshit about how people are going to starve in the streets because they didn’t get a double-digit increase. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![Whack-a-Mole](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/whack-a-mole/32/141_2.png) [@Whack-a-Mole](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Whack-a-Mole)\ **Post date:** [February 18, 2011, 4:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-wisconsins-anti-union-bill-pass-constitutional-muster-is-it-a-good-idea/571725/157 "2011-02-18T16:23:50Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > This is the real world. At some point, the unions need to be told this. Suck it up and save the bullshit about how people are going to starve in the streets because they didn’t get a double-digit increase. And conservatives can save the bullshit that the unions are killing them. > [@](#): > > To the extent that there is an imbalance – Walker claims there is a $137 million deficit – it is not because of a drop in revenues or increases in the cost of state employee contracts, benefits or pensions. It is because Walker and his allies pushed through $140 million in new spending for special-interest groups in January. If the Legislature were simply to rescind Walker’s new spending schemes – or delay their implementation until they are offset by fresh revenues – the “crisis” would not exist. > > The Fiscal Bureau memo – which readers can access at [http://legis.wisconsin.gov/lfb/Misc/2011\_01\_31Vos&Darling.pdf](http://legis.wisconsin.gov/lfb/Misc/2011_01_31Vos&Darling.pdf) – makes it clear that Walker did not inherit a budget that required a repair bill. > > \ > > “Since his inauguration in early January, Walker has approved $140 million in new special-interest spending that includes: > > “• $25 million for an economic development fund for job creation that still has $73 million due to a lack of job creation. Walker is creating a $25 million hole which will not create or retain jobs. > > “• $48 million for private health savings accounts, which primarily benefit the wealthy. A study from the federal Governmental Accountability Office showed the average adjusted gross income of HSA participants was $139,000 and nearly half of HSA participants reported withdrawing nothing from their HSA, evidence that it is serving as a tax shelter for wealthy participants. > > “• $67 million for a tax shift plan, so ill-conceived that at best the benefit provided to ‘job creators’ would be less than a dollar a day per new job, and may be as little as 30 cents a day.” > > SOURCE: [Walker gins up ‘crisis’ to reward cronies](http://host.madison.com/ct/news/opinion/editorial/article_61064e9a-27b0-5f28-b6d1-a57c8b2aaaf6.html) So, the governor created a budget imbalance then goes after the unions to fix it. (Note the “Fiscal Bureau” is Wisconsin’s equivalent of the Congressional Budget Office) ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [February 18, 2011, 4:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-wisconsins-anti-union-bill-pass-constitutional-muster-is-it-a-good-idea/571725/158 "2011-02-18T16:32:39Z")
Again I will ask for a more objective cite than the Cap Times, with which I am familiar from my days in Madtown (I graduated from the UW-Madison), and which advertises itself as “Your Progressive Voice”. I find it difficult to accept at face value a source than labels whatever Republicans spend as “special interests” (shock! horror!) but not unions. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![Lobohan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lobohan/32/79_2.png) [@Lobohan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lobohan)\ **Post date:** [February 18, 2011, 4:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-wisconsins-anti-union-bill-pass-constitutional-muster-is-it-a-good-idea/571725/159 "2011-02-18T16:32:46Z")
The Governor gives massive tax cuts to the rich and then exults, _“Oh my, we have a budget crisis!”_ Rachel Maddow last night had a good point about the right wanting to disrupt the unions because post Citizens United, they are the only thing standing against Conservative electoral funding dominance: [Billionaires vs. Bakesales](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LJcdIyaNNQ4) ---
**Author:** ![Whack-a-Mole](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/whack-a-mole/32/141_2.png) [@Whack-a-Mole](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Whack-a-Mole)\ **Post date:** [February 18, 2011, 4:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-wisconsins-anti-union-bill-pass-constitutional-muster-is-it-a-good-idea/571725/160 "2011-02-18T16:41:33Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > Again I will ask for a more objective cite than the Cap Times, with which I am familiar from my days in Madtown (I graduated from the UW-Madison), and which advertises itself as “Your Progressive Voice”. I find it difficult to accept at face value a source than labels whatever Republicans spend as “special interests” (shock! horror!) but not unions. > > Regards, > Shodan Dude…the link to the Fiscal Bureau memo is in my post. They are the equivalent of the Congressional Budget Office in Wisconsin. What more do you want? The stuff below that link you might claim is a liberal bullshit assessment of the tax cuts but that the cuts happened is without a doubt and sans those cuts there’d be no budget crisis (indeed I think I read Wisconsin would have a surplus). That is proved for you already. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-wisconsins-anti-union-bill-pass-constitutional-muster-is-it-a-good-idea/571725.md?page=7) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-wisconsins-anti-union-bill-pass-constitutional-muster-is-it-a-good-idea/571725.md?page=9)