# Will you be happy or sad is the Chinese gymnast is stripped of her medals? **URL:** \ **Category:** The Game Room\ **Created:** [August 21, 2008, 10:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-you-be-happy-or-sad-is-the-chinese-gymnast-is-stripped-of-her-medals/460863 "2008-08-21T22:46:44Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![clairobscur](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/839c29/32.png) [@clairobscur](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/clairobscur)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2008, 3:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-you-be-happy-or-sad-is-the-chinese-gymnast-is-stripped-of-her-medals/460863/81 "2008-08-22T03:46:51Z")
[QUOTE=Whack-a-Mole] On the one hand I feel badly for her. She has worked her whole life for this and clearly she is exceptionally talented. [/QUOTE] The other competitors too worked their whole life for this. And if they reached the finals in the Olympics, they’re certainly exceptionally talented too. Actually, I rarely watch sports, but when I happen to do so, I very frequently feel bad for the team/athletes who lost. That’s the most common feeling I have. I can’t help thinking that they have all worked so hard to get there, and how shitty they must be feeling (and quite often you can see how bad they feel, grown men crying and such). The joy of the winner often appears almost indecent to me. I guess if I were on the gymnastics’ jury, I would hand out gold medals to everybody. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2008, 3:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-you-be-happy-or-sad-is-the-chinese-gymnast-is-stripped-of-her-medals/460863/82 "2008-08-22T03:49:47Z")
[QUOTE=What Exit?] That is why I asked for help. I know I am unsure of the wording of the rules and explanation of it. I am going by my faulty memory of what I heard on the coverage. If you know that it is nothing but exploitation, please cite, as far as I know, you are incorrect. [/QUOTE] Found [this](http://www.physsportsmed.com/issues/1997/03mar/nb_gym.htm): > [@](#): > > The age of female gymnasts has been an issue in the sport for 25 years. Jackie Fie, who helped found the American women’s gymnastics program in the 1960s and is president of FIG’s women’s technical committee, recalls that the age threshold was 14 in the 1970s and changed to 15 in the 1980s. The present limit, she says, has been discussed since 1988 and was actually approved by FIG in 1994. Fie, who lives in Jefferson, Iowa, says the change was prompted by many concerns, including the musculoskeletal development of young competitors, lengthening gymnastic careers, preventing burnout, and countering negative publicity that the sport has received. > > The health issues in women’s gymnastics were noted in an article (1) published in The New England Journal of Medicine on the eve of the 1996 Olympic Summer Games. It cited the female athlete triad (see article “Team Management of the Female Athlete Triad: Part 1: What to Look for, What to Ask”) as one problem, but also described “the accumulation of minor physical insults that can result in permanent injury or deformity. These injuries include stress fractures; growth-plate fractures; wrist and elbow injuries; spinal injuries such as scoliosis, spondylolysis, and spondylolisthesis; and reflex sympathetic dystrophy.” > > Michel Leglise, a member of FIG’s executive committee and chair of its medical commission in Paris, says that musculoskeletal problems were important considerations in the rule change. “The period when [gymnasts] are at the top [as competitors] is also the time when their growth is not finished, and the cartilage is not completely structured; it means a certain fragility for the articulations,” he stated in a letter to The Physician and Sportsmedicine. “We know that one more year for the maturation of the skeleton is appreciable.” Looks like it was all based on concerns about physical injuries and stress. Nothing in here about advantages. ---
**Author:** ![Windwalker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/5e9695/32.png) [@Windwalker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Windwalker)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2008, 3:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-you-be-happy-or-sad-is-the-chinese-gymnast-is-stripped-of-her-medals/460863/83 "2008-08-22T03:52:21Z")
[QUOTE=kidchameleon] [URL=[http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2008/olympics/2008/08/21/bc.oly.gym.underage.chinese.ap/index.html?eref=sircrc](http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2008/olympics/2008/08/21/bc.oly.gym.underage.chinese.ap/index.html?eref=sircrc)] If she’s not 16, she’d be what we call a liar. Of her own volition. [/QUOTE] In this country, if you go against authority from a position of weakness, such as would be the case with any of these athletes, you are often endangering yourself and your family. Someone in local government who’s pissed off at your decisions can make you and your family’s lives extremely difficult, and there’s pretty much nothing you can do about it. And if the central government is in on it, you better toe the line, boys. Can’t really muster up any outrage for someone lying with a proverbial gun to their head. ---
**Author:** ![What\_Exit](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/what_exit/32/10652_2.png) [@What\_Exit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/What_Exit)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2008, 3:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-you-be-happy-or-sad-is-the-chinese-gymnast-is-stripped-of-her-medals/460863/84 "2008-08-22T03:53:47Z")
[QUOTE=Diogenes the Cynic] Found [this](http://www.physsportsmed.com/issues/1997/03mar/nb_gym.htm): Looks like it was all based on concerns about physical injuries and stress. Nothing in here about advantages. [/QUOTE] > [@](#): > > Fie, who lives in Jefferson, Iowa, says the change was prompted by many concerns, including the musculoskeletal development of young competitors, lengthening gymnastic careers, preventing burnout, **and countering negative publicity that the sport has received.** my bolding More than just injuries and stress even from your unofficial cite. However, I cannot find an official cite either, so yours is the best I have seen so far. ---
**Author:** ![clairobscur](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/839c29/32.png) [@clairobscur](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/clairobscur)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2008, 3:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-you-be-happy-or-sad-is-the-chinese-gymnast-is-stripped-of-her-medals/460863/85 "2008-08-22T03:56:52Z")
[QUOTE=Diogenes the Cynic] The child had no choice about it. [/QUOTE] Then she should complain to the Chinese coaches and cry on their shoulders. It’s not about punishing a little girl, it’s about enforcing the rules of a sport. And these rules have been put in place precisely to protect little girls from the damages caused by intensive training. This one and the numerous others who never came close to competing in the Olympics but were nevertheless trained merciless and without regard for their well-being because the Chinese government thought it could get away with it. If you’re that worried about the kids’ well-being, you should insist that she ought to be stripped of her medal. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2008, 3:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-you-be-happy-or-sad-is-the-chinese-gymnast-is-stripped-of-her-medals/460863/86 "2008-08-22T03:58:26Z")
[QUOTE=What Exit?] my bolding More than just injuries and stress even from your unofficial cite. However, I cannot find an official cite either, so yours is the best I have seen so far. [/QUOTE] The negative publicity was from the perceived exploitation and health risks, not from a belief that they had an unfair advantage. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2008, 4:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-you-be-happy-or-sad-is-the-chinese-gymnast-is-stripped-of-her-medals/460863/87 "2008-08-22T04:02:48Z")
[QUOTE=clairobscur] Then she should complain to the Chinese coaches and cry on their shoulders. [/quote] The coaches are the ones who are forcing her to lie. What kind of response is that? You’re actually suggesting that the way for her to stand up to the coersion of a totalitarian government is to complain to them and cry? Are you high? > [@](#): > > If you’re that worried about the kids’ well-being, you should insist that she ought to be stripped of her medal. That makes no sense whatsoever. She’s not the perpetrator. ---
**Author:** ![Labrador\_Deceiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/7c8e57/32.png) [@Labrador\_Deceiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Labrador_Deceiver)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2008, 4:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-you-be-happy-or-sad-is-the-chinese-gymnast-is-stripped-of-her-medals/460863/88 "2008-08-22T04:02:59Z")
[QUOTE=Diogenes the Cynic] The negative publicity was from the perceived exploitation and health risks, not from a belief that they had an unfair advantage. [/QUOTE] I never once thought that 13-year-olds had an “unfair” advantage, except when you only allow one to compete. ---
**Author:** ![VarlosZ](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/d78d45/32.png) [@VarlosZ](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/VarlosZ)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2008, 4:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-you-be-happy-or-sad-is-the-chinese-gymnast-is-stripped-of-her-medals/460863/89 "2008-08-22T04:03:46Z")
> [@Diogenes](#): > > It’s not like she cheated. She won fair and square. Assuming that China did actually lie about her age, it is definitely cheating, not just according to the rules but also in spirit. Being able to compete at 14 confers a competitive advantage. She hasn’t had time as much time for nagging injuries (or big injuries) to accrue and slow her down. Similarly, she can be trained harder at a younger age than her competitors. Also, given the ages of most gymnasts, it seems likely that, to a point, younger is better (though I have to declare a certain level of agnosticism on this point). As has been pointed out above, China is gaming the system by being able to draw from a wider pool of talent than the rest of the world – the gymnast in question didn’t have to contend with the best 14 and 15 year olds from other countries, but other countries’ gymnasts _did_ have to contend with the best 14 and 15 year old Chinese gymnasts. Now, what should be done about it is a separate matter. If you just want to make a harm-reduction argument and say that the negatives of stripping her of the medal outweigh the positives, I don’t think that’s completely unreasonable (I don’t think I agree, but still). However to say that she “didn’t cheat” and “won fair and square” is simply incorrect. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2008, 4:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-you-be-happy-or-sad-is-the-chinese-gymnast-is-stripped-of-her-medals/460863/90 "2008-08-22T04:04:40Z")
[QUOTE=Labrador Deceiver] I never once thought that 13-year-olds had an “unfair” advantage, except when you only allow one to compete. [/QUOTE] You have not yet explained why their advantage is “unfair.” The rule exists to _protect_ kids like this, not because they would be doing anything unfair to older gymnasts. ---
**Author:** ![What\_Exit](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/what_exit/32/10652_2.png) [@What\_Exit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/What_Exit)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2008, 4:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-you-be-happy-or-sad-is-the-chinese-gymnast-is-stripped-of-her-medals/460863/91 "2008-08-22T04:04:48Z")
[QUOTE=Diogenes the Cynic] The negative publicity was from the perceived exploitation and health risks, not from a belief that they had an unfair advantage. [/QUOTE] You do realize your cite is from 1997 though and not official? ---
**Author:** ![Labrador\_Deceiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/7c8e57/32.png) [@Labrador\_Deceiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Labrador_Deceiver)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2008, 4:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-you-be-happy-or-sad-is-the-chinese-gymnast-is-stripped-of-her-medals/460863/92 "2008-08-22T04:07:17Z")
[QUOTE=Diogenes the Cynic] The coaches are the ones who are forcing her to lie. What kind of response is that? You’re actually suggesting that the way for her to stand up to the coersion of a totalitarian government is to complain to them and cry? Are you high? That makes no sense whatsoever. She’s not the perpetrator. [/QUOTE] Right. It makes no sense that you think letting her keep the medal (thereby rewarding the cheaters) will somehow _prevent_ future exploitation. From here on out, China will happily stand by and receive gold medals while the rest of the field is punished for following the rules. I can’t wait for 2012!!! ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2008, 4:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-you-be-happy-or-sad-is-the-chinese-gymnast-is-stripped-of-her-medals/460863/93 "2008-08-22T04:07:25Z")
[QUOTE=What Exit?] You do realize your cite is from 1997 though and not official? [/QUOTE] I remember the negative publicity, though. If you can find something better have at it. I just think that some people have a completely distorted understanding of why the rule exists. ---
**Author:** ![Labrador\_Deceiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/7c8e57/32.png) [@Labrador\_Deceiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Labrador_Deceiver)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2008, 4:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-you-be-happy-or-sad-is-the-chinese-gymnast-is-stripped-of-her-medals/460863/94 "2008-08-22T04:08:18Z")
[QUOTE=Diogenes the Cynic] You have not yet explained why their advantage is “unfair.” The rule exists to _protect_ kids like this, not because they would be doing anything unfair to older gymnasts. [/QUOTE] Because other 13-year-olds are not allowed to compete. Try to keep up. (and if you are seriously arguing that a 13yo who hasn’t reached her growth potential doesn’t have an advantage over a 16yo in a sport that requires someone to land on her ankles from a significant height, then we can call it quits now. You have no right to say that has nothing to do with why the rule exists.) ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2008, 4:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-you-be-happy-or-sad-is-the-chinese-gymnast-is-stripped-of-her-medals/460863/95 "2008-08-22T04:10:50Z")
[QUOTE=Labrador Deceiver] Right. It makes no sense that you think letting her keep the medal (thereby rewarding the cheaters) will somehow _prevent_ future exploitation. [/quote] I never said it would prevent future exploittaion. I just think that punishing victims aggravates the crime. Taking her medals will hurt her, and possibly her family, but it won’t hurt China and it won’t stop themm from doing it again. They’ll just be more careful about covering their tracks next time. > [@](#): > > From here on out, China will happily stand by and receive gold medals while the rest of the field is punished for following the rules. I can’t wait for 2012!!! If you’ll read my posts, you’ll see that I said China should be _excluded_ in 2012. I’m saying punish the government, not the kid. ---
**Author:** ![Labrador\_Deceiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/7c8e57/32.png) [@Labrador\_Deceiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Labrador_Deceiver)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2008, 4:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-you-be-happy-or-sad-is-the-chinese-gymnast-is-stripped-of-her-medals/460863/96 "2008-08-22T04:12:18Z")
[QUOTE=Diogenes the Cynic] I never said it would prevent future exploittaion. I just think that punishing victims aggravates the crime. Taking her medals will hurt her, and possibly her family, but it won’t hurt China and it won’t stop themm from doing it again. They’ll just be more careful about covering their tracks next time. [/QUOTE] In the context of sport, she is not the victim. The people who followed the rules are. ---
**Author:** ![clairobscur](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/839c29/32.png) [@clairobscur](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/clairobscur)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2008, 4:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-you-be-happy-or-sad-is-the-chinese-gymnast-is-stripped-of-her-medals/460863/97 "2008-08-22T04:13:14Z")
[QUOTE=Diogenes the Cynic] That makes no sense whatsoever. She’s not the perpetrator. [/QUOTE] Of course it makes no sense since, when you quoted me, you conveniently omitted the part of my post that made my last sentence meaningful. So, I rephrase : If you’re so concerned with kids well-being, you should insist that too young competitors should be stripped of their medals because not doing so provides an incentive to the harmful intensive training of children. Despite your insistence, this has essentially nothing to do with “punishing a little girl”. It has everything to do with enforcing a rule. A rule which has been put in place to protect little girls. ---
**Author:** ![zagloba](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/977dab/32.png) [@zagloba](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/zagloba)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2008, 4:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-you-be-happy-or-sad-is-the-chinese-gymnast-is-stripped-of-her-medals/460863/98 "2008-08-22T04:14:57Z")
Do individual Chinese athletes get to keep their medals, or does the state claim that they were competing for the glory of China and therefore lay claim to the medals? ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2008, 4:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-you-be-happy-or-sad-is-the-chinese-gymnast-is-stripped-of-her-medals/460863/99 "2008-08-22T04:15:44Z")
[QUOTE=Labrador Deceiver] Because other 13-year-olds are not allowed to compete. Try to keep up. [/QUOTE] You’re the one who’s losing track here. Your contention was that 14 year olds have an advantage over OLDER gymnasts and that’s why they shouldn’t be allowed to compete. You have not yet offered a reason why a 13 year old has an _unfair_ advantage over a 16 year old. The fact that China gave itself an advantage (maybe) over other countries by breaking the rule is just circular. The rule does not exist because of any unfair advantage. It exists to protect the health of the kids. ---
**Author:** ![Windwalker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/5e9695/32.png) [@Windwalker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Windwalker)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2008, 4:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-you-be-happy-or-sad-is-the-chinese-gymnast-is-stripped-of-her-medals/460863/100 "2008-08-22T04:16:15Z")
[QUOTE=Diogenes the Cynic] I remember the negative publicity, though. If you can find something better have at it. I just think that some people have a completely distorted understanding of why the rule exists. [/QUOTE] It seems from one of the cites in this thread that the rule exists to protect developing bodies from potentially devastating injuries. If you allow a 13 year-old to get the gold medal and _keep it_, you’re essentially sending a message to both Chinese and foreign gymnastics teams that it’s OK to use underaged athletes, and they will. This means that more young bodies will be exposed to these dangers, and that DOES hurt people. She should have her medal stripped, if only to discourage Olympic teams from pulling more of this shit. And who knows how many young Chinese gymnasts’ bodies were broken to produce this magnificent team that we’ve seen in Beijing? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-you-be-happy-or-sad-is-the-chinese-gymnast-is-stripped-of-her-medals/460863.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-you-be-happy-or-sad-is-the-chinese-gymnast-is-stripped-of-her-medals/460863.md?page=6)