# Will you do your job in our American democracy? **URL:** \ **Category:** Politics & Elections\ **Created:** [November 26, 2011, 5:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-you-do-your-job-in-our-american-democracy/604163 "2011-11-26T17:59:56Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/f04885/32.png) [@Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Qin_Shi_Huangdi)\ **Post date:** [November 27, 2011, 3:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-you-do-your-job-in-our-american-democracy/604163/21 "2011-11-27T03:16:14Z")
> [@Untoward\_Parable](#): > > Humanity is an amoeba. No part of the goo is more important or relevant than another. We are all equally meaningless. Some get to hang out in the soft squishy center and others are grated against the rocks, but none of us have any say in where the blob goes. Life is a stage. :rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes: This demonstrates the effect nilhism/postmodernism relativism has on civilization and its cohesion. ---
**Author:** ![zoid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/zoid/32/336_2.png) [@zoid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/zoid)\ **Post date:** [November 27, 2011, 4:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-you-do-your-job-in-our-american-democracy/604163/22 "2011-11-27T04:15:37Z")
> [@Untoward\_Parable](#): > > Humanity is an amoeba. No part of the goo is more important or relevant than another. We are all equally meaningless. Some get to hang out in the soft squishy center and others are grated against the rocks, but none of us have any say in where the blob goes. Life is a stage. You’re right. Please keep believing that nothing matters. It’s pointless for you to get involved at any level. In fact we prefer if you don’t worry your pretty little head. ---
**Author:** ![Rhythmdvl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/85f322/32.png) [@Rhythmdvl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rhythmdvl)\ **Post date:** [November 27, 2011, 4:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-you-do-your-job-in-our-american-democracy/604163/23 "2011-11-27T04:22:59Z")
> [@zoid](#): > > You’re right. > > Please keep believing that nothing matters. It’s pointless for you to get involved at any level. In fact we prefer if you don’t worry your pretty little head. Four pseudopods good; two pseudopods bad! ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [November 27, 2011, 4:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-you-do-your-job-in-our-american-democracy/604163/24 "2011-11-27T16:23:52Z")
> [@Rhythmdvl](#): > > I whoosh he’d answer the quoostion. Noo, I woon’t! ---
**Author:** ![MeanOldLady](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/meanoldlady/32/10737_2.png) [@MeanOldLady](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MeanOldLady)\ **Post date:** [November 27, 2011, 4:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-you-do-your-job-in-our-american-democracy/604163/25 "2011-11-27T16:51:42Z")
> [@Rhythmdvl](#): > > I will vote for whoever supplies me with a miniature American flag. Will you settle for a lapel pin? > [@Stranger\_On\_A\_Train](#): > > By all means, vote if it makes you feel good; if nothing else, even the most cynical voter can find candidates and measures to vote against. Just don’t think that you are “making a difference” by pulling a lever once every couple of years, or arguing politics over the water cooler in between of discussing your favorite television show. If you genuinely want to make a difference, get involved in a constructive organization or movement that reflects your views and values (that is, one that does not consist of camping out on public property and waving your fingers up and down to develop “consensus”) and make a positive change in the lives of people or public perception that will then flow up to politicians and corporate leaders. Voting _can_ make a difference on some issues if the polling is close enough. Obviously you will not cast the lone vote that changes America, but that’s why you rally other people to join you to defeat Horrible Initiative X. But yes, you’re right, puncturing a chad occasionally isn’t really righting the wrongs in the nation, or whatever it is people think they’re doing when they vote. I remember when I realized that my years of spending very much time, effort and what little money I had on political campaigns was misguided. I never had any delusions about Joe Fuckface (D-CA) caring about me or the little guy, but I at one point figured because politics were so entrenched in everything, attempts to ensure the guys most likely to support my interests remained in office were at least steps in the right direction. I later found this was largely optimistic silliness, and now my efforts and interests are in organizations that do real work toward creating the changes I’d like to see, and those that put pressure on politicians do what I’d like, as opposed to just gathering the vote and then walking away. Working with an organization that actually gets out does something is amazing, as you get to see real, measurable effects on people’s lives, but then you feel somewhat crestfallen when you remember we’re just one small organization in one small town. Then you think you can create change on a larger scale by getting involved in politics, which is steeped in everything from whether or not you can get married to if you can get plastic bags at the grocery store, before you recall why you left that in the first place. So no, I’m still not Changing The World (damn it!), and it is endlessly frustrating and rewarding at the same time to operate at this level, but you know, that’s life. Do what you can. I am so glad that life is funny, or else I would be _pissed_. I’m also grateful for booze. I’m sorry – what were we talking about again? ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [November 28, 2011, 1:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-you-do-your-job-in-our-american-democracy/604163/26 "2011-11-28T01:01:55Z")
> [@MeanOldLady](#): > > Voting _can_ make a difference on some issues if the polling is close enough. Voting always makes a difference. Barack Obama is President because 69,456,897 people voted for him. It’s not like any one of those votes was the one that made him President but he wouldn’t have been elected if those people hadn’t voted. It seems like a silly attitude for somebody to decide that anything that can’t be done single-handedly isn’t worth doing with help from other people. ---
**Author:** ![Untoward\_Parable](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/51bf81/32.png) [@Untoward\_Parable](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Untoward_Parable)\ **Post date:** [November 28, 2011, 4:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-you-do-your-job-in-our-american-democracy/604163/27 "2011-11-28T04:40:55Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > Voting always makes a difference. Barack Obama is President because 69,456,897 people voted for him. It’s not like any one of those votes was the one that made him President but he wouldn’t have been elected if those people hadn’t voted. > > It seems like a silly attitude for somebody to decide that anything that can’t be done single-handedly isn’t worth doing with help from other people. You really think anyone can change the fundamentally amoral nature of society with a group? That fundamentally amoral nature is the few privileged exploiting the many unprivileged while simultaneously stunting human potential btw. If Obama woke up and decided his family, friends, class and political obligations were not as important as being a good person do you really think he could stop the train? Even divert it slightly? He’d be neutered with a bullet or obstructionism until the next figurehead could be placed.The same goes for any political leader or wealthy person. If you’re up on high enough you can sometimes change the flavor of the poison but thats it. Make it a more gay friendly, woman friendly, black friendly, parks and recreation friendly, hunter friendly, blinky light friendly whatever. The world of human will always be a horror because were designed this way. People cannot use logic without severe effort and predisposition and even then it’s very easy for the brain to trick us into thinking were being logical, doing good things, supporting good things when really were just promoting ourselves and people like us. ---
**Author:** ![Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/f04885/32.png) [@Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Qin_Shi_Huangdi)\ **Post date:** [November 28, 2011, 4:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-you-do-your-job-in-our-american-democracy/604163/28 "2011-11-28T04:49:33Z")
> [@Untoward\_Parable](#): > > You really think anyone can change the fundamentally amoral nature of society with a group? That fundamentally amoral nature is the few privileged exploiting the many unprivileged while simultaneously stunting human potential btw. > > If Obama woke up and decided his family, friends, class and political obligations were not as important as being a good person do you really think he could stop the train? Even divert it slightly? He’d be neutered with a bullet or obstructionism until the next figurehead could be placed.The same goes for any political leader or wealthy person. If you’re up on high enough you can sometimes change the flavor of the poison but thats it. Make it a more gay friendly, woman friendly, black friendly, parks and recreation friendly, hunter friendly, blinky light friendly whatever. > > The world of human will always be a horror because were designed this way. People cannot use logic without severe effort and predisposition and even then it’s very easy for the brain to trick us into thinking were being logical, doing good things, supporting good things when really were just promoting ourselves and people like us. You’re being hysterical here. While in all societies there is an elite, in America it is a class highly fluid and willing to compromise and amenable to reasonable. As I consider empirical evidence, America is the mightiest country on Earth with a massive economic machine, tremendous prosperity, and unparalleled military strength. The world of human will is not horror, and self-interest is not wrong. ---
**Author:** ![Untoward\_Parable](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/51bf81/32.png) [@Untoward\_Parable](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Untoward_Parable)\ **Post date:** [November 28, 2011, 5:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-you-do-your-job-in-our-american-democracy/604163/29 "2011-11-28T05:47:26Z")
> [@Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](#): > > You’re being hysterical here. While in all societies there is an elite, in America it is a class highly fluid and willing to compromise and amenable to reasonable. As I consider empirical evidence, America is the mightiest country on Earth with a massive economic machine, tremendous prosperity, and unparalleled military strength. The world of human will is not horror, and self-interest is not wrong. Funny how the truth is hysterical, didn’t realize it had a personality. ---
**Author:** ![Princhester](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3e96dc/32.png) [@Princhester](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Princhester)\ **Post date:** [November 28, 2011, 9:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-you-do-your-job-in-our-american-democracy/604163/30 "2011-11-28T09:01:22Z")
> [@Stranger\_On\_A\_Train](#): > > It is popular (and certainly easy) to blame “the politicians” and “the corporations” for all of the poor decisions and lack of foresight. But in fact, politicians and corporations respond to and live by the desires of their constituants and customers. They may make an effort to influence what voters and consumers believe, but ultimately, if you don’t like who is representing you in Congress or on the board of Union Carbide, you have to recognize that the responsibility lies in those who place them and keep them in those positions, whether by obtuseness or laziness. Voting is practically incidential to the process of democracy; the real decisions are made by society at large, embracing or rejecting core values that the candidates then attempt to demonstrate they enbody. Politicians formally and informally poll constituent opinions continually, and they take most note of the views of constituents who intend to vote (or who say they will vote if certain views are embodied by a candidate). Changes in the values of those who govern may change slowly as the underlying values of society change, but the views of voters are disproportionately influential in communicating those values to the governors. And further, there is a feedback loop because if some voters trend towards an opinion, candidates spread a message favourable to that opinion to curry favour and - as “thought leaders” - candidates influence more voters to the opinion they espouse. Saying you don’t make a difference by voting is obviously wrong. You won’t make much difference individually but you will make some difference. The contrary argument won’t survive a _reductio_. What if all but one person didn’t vote? Would you say that person wouldn’t make a difference by voting? What if there were three voters? What about five? At which point, as a point of principle, is a vote not making a difference? The difference made just keeps getting smaller the more people vote but to say they make no difference is absurd. ---
**Author:** ![Untoward\_Parable](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/51bf81/32.png) [@Untoward\_Parable](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Untoward_Parable)\ **Post date:** [November 28, 2011, 10:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-you-do-your-job-in-our-american-democracy/604163/31 "2011-11-28T10:11:55Z")
> [@Princhester](#): > > Politicians formally and informally poll constituent opinions continually, and they take most note of the views of constituents who intend to vote (or who say they will vote if certain views are embodied by a candidate). > > Changes in the values of those who govern may change slowly as the underlying values of society change, but the views of voters are disproportionately influential in communicating those values to the governors. And further, there is a feedback loop because if some voters trend towards an opinion, candidates spread a message favourable to that opinion to curry favour and - as “thought leaders” - candidates influence more voters to the opinion they espouse. > > Saying you don’t make a difference by voting is obviously wrong. You won’t make much difference individually but you will make some difference. The contrary argument won’t survive a _reductio_. What if all but one person didn’t vote? Would you say that person wouldn’t make a difference by voting? What if there were three voters? What about five? At which point, as a point of principle, is a vote not making a difference? The difference made just keeps getting smaller the more people vote but to say they make no difference is absurd. youre assuming that what youre voting on makes a meaningful difference. If there is no real choice then again it makes no difference. That choice is only allowed to be made by voting so long as it doesn’t interfere with concentrated wealth. The more a society begins to make choices concentrated wealth dislikes the more repressive and violent intervention there will be. But the media keeps things nice and cozy already so not much need of that in the US of A. There are so many ways it doesn’t matter I’d have to post a college course just to get started. It’s layers and layers and layers of obstruction between the interest and wishes of the many and the decision making table, and even the people sitting at that table only do so because they have demonstrated their cooperation with the role, the model of nepotism and hierarchy, if they diverged from their role of protecting the privilege of wealthy families they would be removed very quickly by any means necessary. There are three kinds of people: Predators, victims and the apathetic and none of us deserve to survive. The only good things about humanity are the fables we tell about ourselves. ---
**Author:** ![Princhester](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3e96dc/32.png) [@Princhester](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Princhester)\ **Post date:** [November 28, 2011, 10:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-you-do-your-job-in-our-american-democracy/604163/32 "2011-11-28T10:50:40Z")
> [@Untoward\_Parable](#): > > youre assuming that what youre voting on makes a meaningful difference. If there is no real choice then again it makes no difference. That choice is only allowed to be made by voting so long as it doesn’t interfere with concentrated wealth. These things are easy to say and probably have some truth. However, there is sufficient subtle and long term change that the idea that there is no real choice is overstatement, not bourne out by even medium term study of government. ---
**Author:** ![Untoward\_Parable](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/51bf81/32.png) [@Untoward\_Parable](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Untoward_Parable)\ **Post date:** [November 28, 2011, 11:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-you-do-your-job-in-our-american-democracy/604163/33 "2011-11-28T11:32:04Z")
> [@Princhester](#): > > These things are easy to say and probably have some truth. However, there is sufficient subtle and long term change that the idea that there is no real choice is overstatement, not bourne out by even medium term study of government. No society of any scale in human history has ever done anything but exploit the vast majority for the benefit of the wealthy minority while at the same time being at the expense of human scientific, cultural and economic progress for the sake of maintaining the hierarchy. That is an entire term study of government. I wish it weren’t true but it is. look how cool I am for knowing it. ---
**Author:** ![MeanOldLady](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/meanoldlady/32/10737_2.png) [@MeanOldLady](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MeanOldLady)\ **Post date:** [November 28, 2011, 3:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-you-do-your-job-in-our-american-democracy/604163/34 "2011-11-28T15:10:19Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > Voting always makes a difference. Barack Obama is President because 69,456,897 people voted for him. It’s not like any one of those votes was the one that made him President but he wouldn’t have been elected if those people hadn’t voted. > > It seems like a silly attitude for somebody to decide that anything that can’t be done single-handedly isn’t worth doing with help from other people. Dude, I voted for Obama in 2008 and probably will again in 2012. It actually _isn’t_ worth casting a vote for O in Illinois, but I’m doing it anyway because I typically don’t do anything very exciting on Tuesday evenings, plus they’ll give me a sticker! There’s a reason Obama organizers hit up people in undecided states very hard in the last election. But that’s getting off topic now. I believe this snide OP was intended to create a discussion about elections being bought, and our voting for one of two assholes every four years does not affect real change in our society, to which my formal reply is “Meh.” ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [November 28, 2011, 3:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-you-do-your-job-in-our-american-democracy/604163/35 "2011-11-28T15:35:52Z")
> [@Untoward\_Parable](#): > > No society of any scale in human history has ever done anything but exploit the vast majority for the benefit of the wealthy minority while at the same time being at the expense of human scientific, cultural and economic progress for the sake of maintaining the hierarchy. That is an entire term study of government. I wish it weren’t true but it is. It if _is_ true, how do you explain scientific, cultural and economic progress that has occured and is occuring? Or do you not recognize such, in which case the lives of a 21st-century software engineer and an 18th century plantation slave are interchangable. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [November 28, 2011, 3:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-you-do-your-job-in-our-american-democracy/604163/36 "2011-11-28T15:38:49Z")
> [@Untoward\_Parable](#): > > Humanity is an amoeba. No part of the goo is more important or relevant than another. We are all equally meaningless. If life and humanity have no meaning, there’s no sense in whining about the political system or people’s reason for voting. And the whining is inconsistent with the point of view to begin with. ---
**Author:** ![Least\_Original\_User\_Name\_Ever](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/e480ec/32.png) [@Least\_Original\_User\_Name\_Ever](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Least_Original_User_Name_Ever)\ **Post date:** [November 28, 2011, 6:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-you-do-your-job-in-our-american-democracy/604163/37 "2011-11-28T18:49:31Z")
> [@SpoilerVirgin](#): > > No. I imagine most of the big money will be spent on T.V. advertising, and since I rarely watch live T.V., and don’t watch the news or news channels (which is where much of the political advertising goes), I won’t even be aware of who the big money spenders are. > > In this month’s election, I had never heard of some of the mayoral candidates until I read the ballot pamphlet. I also tossed pounds of political advertising that came to my mailbox on a daily basis without reading it. I will read traditional news sources (the mainstream media) and the discussions on this and other sites to get an idea of which candidates most closely reflect my positions. > > My decisions will still be based primarily on intuition and gut feelings, but hopefully they won’t be influenced too much by money. Apt user name, too. “Don’t you go spoiling my elections, candidates. I want to see who wins for myself!” ---
**Author:** ![Untoward\_Parable](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/51bf81/32.png) [@Untoward\_Parable](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Untoward_Parable)\ **Post date:** [November 28, 2011, 10:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-you-do-your-job-in-our-american-democracy/604163/38 "2011-11-28T22:40:19Z")
> [@Bryan\_Ekers](#): > > It if _is_ true, how do you explain scientific, cultural and economic progress that has occured and is occuring? Or do you not recognize such, in which case the lives of a 21st-century software engineer and an 18th century plantation slave are interchangable. stunted =/= to none. ---
**Author:** ![Princhester](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3e96dc/32.png) [@Princhester](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Princhester)\ **Post date:** [November 28, 2011, 11:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-you-do-your-job-in-our-american-democracy/604163/39 "2011-11-28T23:26:28Z")
You are prevaricating badly. You said “no real choice” at post #31, I pointed out that there is some ability to make a difference at post #32, at post #33 you had another go at the “nothing makes any difference, I’m so cool for pointing this out” then **Bryan** pointed out (again) that your position doesn’t bear scrutiny and at #38 you are saying out that stunted progress does not equal no progress, which, whaddayaknow, is what I said in the first place. ---
**Author:** ![Princhester](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3e96dc/32.png) [@Princhester](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Princhester)\ **Post date:** [November 28, 2011, 11:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-you-do-your-job-in-our-american-democracy/604163/40 "2011-11-28T23:33:09Z")
You are prevaricating badly. You said “no real choice” at post #31, I pointed out that there is some ability to make a difference at post #32, at post #33 you had another go at the “nothing makes any difference, I’m so cool for pointing this out” then **Bryan** pointed out (again) that your position doesn’t bear scrutiny and at #38 you are saying out that stunted progress does not equal no progress, which, whaddayaknow, is what I said in the first place. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-you-do-your-job-in-our-american-democracy/604163.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-you-do-your-job-in-our-american-democracy/604163.md?page=3)